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    • graffias
    • By graffias 22nd Nov 17, 7:59 PM
    • 52Posts
    • 26Thanks
    graffias
    Transfer Pension To Bitcoin
    • #1
    • 22nd Nov 17, 7:59 PM
    Transfer Pension To Bitcoin 22nd Nov 17 at 7:59 PM
    Is there ANY way to withdraw my whole defined contribution pension plan (from a company I used to work for many years back) - it is worth about £24,000 in long term equities (split between UK, Global, and Emerging Market) - and put the whole lot into Bitcoin? I am age 51 and virtually certain that Bitcoin will by end of 2019 be worth over £100,000 per coin. With the central bank printing presses running overtime as at no time in history, and them buying up stocks to inflate prices to a massive bubble again unlike any ever seen before - it has to be INSANITY to have £24,000 invested in the stock market for the next few years whilst Bitcoin is on the cusp of becoming a global monetary store of value and currency. By contrast the pensions bubble is going to completely explode.

    I don't want to lose out on £400,000GBP that this will be worth in 2019 - so is there any way to save this money - how do I get the money out of the pension scheme, where I know its going to be worth virtually nothing by the time I retire if I don't take action ?

    Any advice from pension experts much appreciated - thank you.
Page 7
    • DairyQueen
    • By DairyQueen 7th Aug 18, 2:29 PM
    • 579 Posts
    • 951 Thanks
    DairyQueen

    Remember there is only a limited amount of Bitcoin to go around.
    Originally posted by graffias
    You can have mine.

    You need people to buy and, at the mo, there aren't enough takers. There are fewer takers every month. I don't think your marketing pitch will reverse the downward trend in price anytime soon. What has to happen for you to appreciate what most people have been saying: i.e. this is a bubble and its burst?

    Governments in the developed world are so invested in fiat currencies that it would likely take the kind of seismic change in economic thinking that happens every century-or-two for your predictions to come true. Who knows? Maybe your Bitcoin punt will come good eventually and the 22nd century descendants of your heirs will inherit a potential fortune.

    Not quite what you had in mind.

    It sounds like you have left retirement saving far too late and are desperately seeking a quick-fix to compensate. It's easy to kick this down the line for decades and then, one day, you wake-up and you're in your 50s. Suddenly, retirement isn't some distant, unimaginable event.

    The longer you remain psychologically and financially invested in this gamble, the more your paper gain reduces. If you can bring yourself to stand back and listen to what knowledgable others here have advised then there is still the opportunity to salvage some of the gain you made last year. If you bought in April 17 then you should still be onto a winner. The alternative is to consider how you will feel when the current trend continues. Do you really want to be last out of the door?

    Unless, of course, you DID invest that £24k pension in a Bitcoin tracker last November. In which case, you have my sympathy as, despite your insults, such a move suggests desperation or an evangelism so profound that it's beyond your power to control.

    Sometimes it pays to eat humble pie. I've eaten plenty in my time and thank the Lord I have. Otherwise I would still be the ill-informed holder of a portfolio of single shares.

    I'm now off this thread because, quite frankly, it's painful to watch someone commit financial suicide.
    • graffias
    • By graffias 7th Aug 18, 3:37 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    graffias
    You are welcome to your world of fear DairyQueen, but I have already begun the process of moving away from bad money. I have felt much happier being invested in Bitcoin - it has been a fantastic experience. There was even a 40% gain over just the past few weeks in the middle of the Bear Market, and though its on a down cycle again it is up about 3% over the past couple of hours.

    Its a superb investment, especially so in the longer term, and it's gradually gaining the necessary regulatory approval :-

    SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce
    https://bitcoinist.com/no-reason-bitcoin-etf-sec-commissioner/
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 7th Aug 18, 5:11 PM
    • 4,986 Posts
    • 8,055 Thanks
    Malthusian
    No, you were being sarcastic, and no, it isn't.
    Originally posted by ValiantSon
    No, you're right, it totally wasn't sarcasm.

    See the difference? Sarcasm uses italics. Satire assumes the reader is intelligent enough to get it without italics. Other than that they are the same.

    Its a superb investment, especially so in the longer term, and it's gradually gaining the necessary regulatory approval :-

    SEC Commissioner Hester Peirce
    by graffias
    Why are you so slavishly obsessed with the opinions of regulators and Goldman Sachs all of a sudden? I thought Bitcoin was supposed to liberate money from the control of governments and the financial elite. Yet here you are saying that Bitcoin's future growth depends on the approval of the US government (the SEC) and the financial elite (Goldman Sachs).
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 8th Aug 18, 12:21 AM
    • 2,536 Posts
    • 2,524 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    No, you're right, it totally wasn't sarcasm.

    See the difference? Sarcasm uses italics. Satire assumes the reader is intelligent enough to get it without italics. Other than that they are the same.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    Sarcasm doesn't use italics. That is an utterly ridiculous thing to say.

    Sarcasm can be a device that is used as part of a satire, but it is still sarcasm. There is nothing wrong with being sarcastic. Nobody who is sane - and who hasn't got their own head firmly stuck up their fundament - will think any less of you for it.
    • Triumph13
    • By Triumph13 8th Aug 18, 9:56 AM
    • 1,382 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    Triumph13
    Sarcasm doesn't use italics. That is an utterly ridiculous thing to say.

    Sarcasm can be a device that is used as part of a satire, but it is still sarcasm. There is nothing wrong with being sarcastic. Nobody who is sane - and who hasn't got their own head firmly stuck up their fundament - will think any less of you for it.
    Originally posted by ValiantSon
    What about if it's someone else's head?
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 9th Aug 18, 4:39 AM
    • 2,536 Posts
    • 2,524 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    What about if it's someone else's head?
    Originally posted by Triumph13
    What you do in the privacy of your own home is no business of mine, as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult.
    • Sunshine-Lovers
    • By Sunshine-Lovers 9th Aug 18, 3:33 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Sunshine-Lovers
    Clearly you are very pro bit-coin, equally it could be seen (certainly by me) as the most audacious pyramid-selling scam going.
    From my research (with IT background) there is no inherent value in underlying asset, so people are buying nothing other than a dream of ever increasing bit-coin value.
    Only time will prove which of us is right but I'd caution people not to jump on the band-wagon just because others say it's a sure-fire winner, so were tulip bulbs in a previous frenzied past economic boom!
    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 9th Aug 18, 5:32 PM
    • 667 Posts
    • 333 Thanks
    TBC15
    Clearly you are very pro bit-coin, equally it could be seen (certainly by me) as the most audacious pyramid-selling scam going.
    From my research (with IT background) there is no inherent value in underlying asset, so people are buying nothing other than a dream of ever increasing bit-coin value.
    Only time will prove which of us is right but I'd caution people not to jump on the band-wagon just because others say it's a sure-fire winner, so were tulip bulbs in a previous frenzied past economic boom!
    Originally posted by Sunshine-Lovers
    If you think common sense has a place on his thread, you may have your work cut out.
    • graffias
    • By graffias 16th Aug 18, 1:21 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    graffias
    I just purchased my next car from the local dealership with Bitcoin - thus costing me 75% LESS on the fiat price.

    So according to you ones, the Great British common sense "conventional people" I'd have been better off keeping my money in fiat or stocks/bonds ?

    And that's where you say I should be keeping my pension over the next 15 years ? You seriously think this creaking financial system is going to last that long ? Do you seriously believe the newspapers and the TV are telling you even remotely the truth ? And that the Wall St traders who manage your pension fund will be ensuring you will enjoy your 4 cruise holidays every year plus all your shopping in M & S Food Hall under you're 90 ?

    Who is actually the real adult in the room here !

    As for my discount - note this was taken on the DOWNTURN - the present horrific Bitcoin bear market, from which I have been slashed by 70%. Even with that I saved 75% by paying in Bitcoin, and by storing my money IN Bitcoin - not in fiat toilet paper.

    The young salesman was astonished that an old git like me asked to pay in Bitcoin - that most hallowed of technological innovations. A trip to the manager confirmed that was not possible so I paid deposit in cash, and sold the Bitcoin that day at $8000 per coin.

    Bitcoin used as money - on the ground, on the street, where the rubber meets the road. Real money, real life, real people, real car.

    And all you have to do for tax is calculate your Capital Gains, for which the nice man at the HMRC gas has provided full instructions online - no expensive accountant required. If your gain is under £11,000 there is no CG tax to pay. Otherwise its about 10 or 20%.

    Easy.

    It won't be 15 or 20 years time. Its already started.

    Get on board by self-education.
    Last edited by graffias; 16-08-2018 at 2:19 PM.
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
    • HappyHarry
    • By HappyHarry 16th Aug 18, 1:28 PM
    • 814 Posts
    • 1,188 Thanks
    HappyHarry
    I just purchased my next car from the local dealership with Bitcoin - thus costing me 75% LESS on the fiat price.
    Originally posted by graffias
    Not many car dealers in the UK accept bitcoin as payment, they are being very brave.

    The young salesman was astonished that an old git like me asked to pay in Bitcoin - that most hallowed of technological innovations. A trip to the manager confirmed that was not possible so I paid deposit in cash, and sold the Bitcoin that day at $8000 per coin.
    Originally posted by graffias
    Oh, no, my bad. They didn't take bitcoin, you just used a fiat currency.

    Bitcoin used as money - on the ground, on the street, where the rubber meet the road. Real money, real life, real people, real car.
    Originally posted by graffias
    But not really paying in bitcoin.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser. Any comments I make here are intended for information / discussion only. Nothing I post here should be construed as advice. If you are looking for individual financial advice, please contact a local Independent Financial Adviser.
    • gazzak
    • By gazzak 16th Aug 18, 1:32 PM
    • 458 Posts
    • 615 Thanks
    gazzak
    Oops, it appears to be falling off a cliff right now. Hope nobody took any pension advice from this fellow.
    • Triumph13
    • By Triumph13 16th Aug 18, 1:42 PM
    • 1,382 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    Triumph13
    Poor old graffias does seem to be losing it even more than usual today.
    If you take out all the frothing at the mouth, his actual story seems to be he asked to pay for his car with Bitcoin and was told he couldn't.
    In other news, he made a profit by selling some of his coins for more than he originally bought them - and seems to have been lucky to sell when he did as the price is now down to $6,300 according to Google.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 16th Aug 18, 2:12 PM
    • 5,004 Posts
    • 3,270 Thanks
    Aegis
    By this logic, if I sell some of my shares that have done well over the last year and buy something with the proceeds:
    1. I have just bought that something with my shares.
    2. I have saved c. 70% of the purchase price because of the gain I achieved on my shares.
    I guess shares are now currency!
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • pafpcg
    • By pafpcg 16th Aug 18, 2:36 PM
    • 298 Posts
    • 272 Thanks
    pafpcg
    Has Graffias taken notice at last?
    A trip to the manager confirmed that was not possible so I paid deposit in cash..
    Originally posted by graffias
    Faced with the evidence of a refusal to accept payment in Bitcoin, are you still claiming Bitcoin is viable as a currency?

    .... and sold the Bitcoin that day at $8000 per coin.
    Originally posted by graffias
    So now you have less "invested" in Bitcoin? Have you at last recognised that getting out of Bitcoin is sensible?

    PS: What sort of car did you buy? Was it by any chance a Reliant Robin? (Light-alloy engine for performance, rust-free fibreglass body, reduced number of wheels for improved reliability?)
    • HappyHarry
    • By HappyHarry 16th Aug 18, 2:44 PM
    • 814 Posts
    • 1,188 Thanks
    HappyHarry

    PS: What sort of car did you buy?
    Originally posted by pafpcg
    Please, please say it was a Fiat
    Last edited by HappyHarry; 16-08-2018 at 2:47 PM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser. Any comments I make here are intended for information / discussion only. Nothing I post here should be construed as advice. If you are looking for individual financial advice, please contact a local Independent Financial Adviser.
    • graffias
    • By graffias 16th Aug 18, 2:48 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    graffias
    The logic sirs is inescapable. The "money" was "held" in Bitcoin for this express purpose - FUTURE EXPENDITURE. Go look up your accounting texts.

    That "future expenditure" has now been "realized", an item has been purchased, and it has been vastly cheaper than opting for the "fiat" method of holding the money.

    That was my choice, and for ideological reasons.

    Fiat cannot be secure because it is printed by the trillion year after year. The money in our pockets IS NOT SECURE.

    Bitcoin is secure precisely because it CANNOT EVER BE PRINTED BY ANYONE.

    A computer system distributed over tens of thousands of computers worldwide completely controls the allocation of the currency, and it is limited to 21 million units FOREVER.

    You cannot even KNOW how many £'s or $'s there are in the world. THIS is what I call a ponzi scheme.

    Another statistic I should mention for you is that for the same car as 6 years ago, the £ price of the new car has risen by 65%. So you tell me is the headlined rate of inflation anywhere even close to real ? That's thanks to the printing by a criminal cartel of £££trillions over that period.

    A car is worth something - but what is a square of toilet paper with someone's head printed on it worth ? Couple of pennies ?

    That's toilet paper money my friend - and that is your pension scheme.

    Oh, and a second point to be aware of, you can make money on the falling market also. For example I sold some Bitcoin at $8500 a few weeks back, and bought it back again a couple of days ago at $6000 - that's a 41% profit in Bitcoin. That's a common strategy you can apply - but you have to limit the amount you stake to your own risk profile.

    And likewise you can go "short" on exchanges like Bitmex if you're feeling adventurous.

    Its a brave new world out there, the old system is not long for this world. When it goes your pension goes with it.
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 16th Aug 18, 2:51 PM
    • 2,536 Posts
    • 2,524 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    I just purchased my next car from the local dealership with Bitcoin - thus costing me 75% LESS on the fiat price.

    So according to you ones, the Great British common sense "conventional people" I'd have been better off keeping my money in fiat or stocks/bonds ?

    And that's where you say I should be keeping my pension over the next 15 years ? You seriously think this creaking financial system is going to last that long ? Do you seriously believe the newspapers and the TV are telling you even remotely the truth ? And that the Wall St traders who manage your pension fund will be ensuring you will enjoy your 4 cruise holidays every year plus all your shopping in M & S Food Hall under you're 90 ?

    Who is actually the real adult in the room here !

    As for my discount - note this was taken on the DOWNTURN - the present horrific Bitcoin bear market, from which I have been slashed by 70%. Even with that I saved 75% by paying in Bitcoin, and by storing my money IN Bitcoin - not in fiat toilet paper.

    The young salesman was astonished that an old git like me asked to pay in Bitcoin - that most hallowed of technological innovations. A trip to the manager confirmed that was not possible so I paid deposit in cash, and sold the Bitcoin that day at $8000 per coin.

    Bitcoin used as money - on the ground, on the street, where the rubber meets the road. Real money, real life, real people, real car.

    And all you have to do for tax is calculate your Capital Gains, for which the nice man at the HMRC gas has provided full instructions online - no expensive accountant required. If your gain is under £11,000 there is no CG tax to pay. Otherwise its about 10 or 20%.

    Easy.

    It won't be 15 or 20 years time. Its already started.

    Get on board by self-education.
    Originally posted by graffias
    So you bought your car in pounds sterling - a fiat currency - and not in Bitcoin at all, because the car dealership don't accept Bitcoin.

    You didn't get a 75% saving on the price. You paid the agreed price in sterling and sold some of your Bitcoin to turn into a usable currency.

    Your posts are becoming increasingly surreal and deluded.
    • HappyHarry
    • By HappyHarry 16th Aug 18, 2:53 PM
    • 814 Posts
    • 1,188 Thanks
    HappyHarry
    Its a brave new world out there, the old system is not long for this world. When it goes your pension goes with it.
    Originally posted by graffias
    Well no.

    Even in your far-fetched scenario, a pension wouldn't lose out, unless your pension only held cash (which surely would be converted to the new-fangled currency?)

    Pensions tend to hold investments such as shares. The companies in which those pensions hold shares will still function, and still be tangible assets, even if they were to be now priced in a different currency.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser. Any comments I make here are intended for information / discussion only. Nothing I post here should be construed as advice. If you are looking for individual financial advice, please contact a local Independent Financial Adviser.
    • Bravepants
    • By Bravepants 16th Aug 18, 3:03 PM
    • 517 Posts
    • 612 Thanks
    Bravepants
    Perhaps this magical Bitcoin has similar properties to Schrodinger's Cat? That is, you can pay for things with it and not pay for things with it BOTH at the same time.
    • graffias
    • By graffias 16th Aug 18, 3:08 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    graffias
    Pensions tend to hold investments such as shares. The companies in which those pensions hold shares will still function, and still be tangible assets, even if they were to be now priced in a different currency.
    Originally posted by HappyHarry
    The problem is these are not "tangible assets" - they are only assets on paper. You are issued with some kind of certificate that says you "own" so many "units" in some kind of asset. However there's no way to know how many OTHER people "own" that same asset - that they have concealed. Its called the "fractional reserve" system. Except its even worse with the stock market as its even harder to trace than a bank's printed assets. They've got your money but all you've got is a worthless piece of paper.

    AND the money the central banks print goes straight into purchasing stocks to drive the prices up. These assets are vastly over-priced. And this gets everyone puttting their money into the fraudulent system. Its the ultimate ponzi scheme - the biggest in history. Look what's happened to fiat money in Venezuela - look what's happening to fiat money now in Turkey. Its coming to us too. The pensions actually have already been raided - they are the easiest pickings.

    When everything corrects to fair value, the stock market will be down over 90%, and gold/silver/Bitcoin will sky-rocket.

    Because nobody can print gold/silver/Bitcoin.
    'When I said I wanted to be a comedian everyone laughed - they're not laughing now'
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