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  • FIRST POST
    • NellieNewbie
    • By NellieNewbie 17th Nov 17, 10:35 PM
    • 110Posts
    • 133Thanks
    NellieNewbie
    75,000 ESA Claimants UnderpaUnderpaid
    • #1
    • 17th Nov 17, 10:35 PM
    75,000 ESA Claimants UnderpaUnderpaid 17th Nov 17 at 10:35 PM
    Does anyone have any more information than in this article about which 75,000 claimants who have been underpaid?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42012116

    I can't find any other threads about this (apologies if I'm wrong).
Page 1
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 17th Nov 17, 11:06 PM
    • 2,130 Posts
    • 2,482 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #2
    • 17th Nov 17, 11:06 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Nov 17, 11:06 PM
    Seems to apply to those claimants who moved from IB to ESA.
    So, I guess, it may relate to the incorrect calculation of transitional protection.

    According to BBC News the average error amounts to £7,000 per claimant!
    Doesn't bode well for UC managed transitional protection under an even more slimmed down DWP.
    • venison
    • By venison 17th Nov 17, 11:10 PM
    • 2,145 Posts
    • 2,289 Thanks
    venison
    • #3
    • 17th Nov 17, 11:10 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Nov 17, 11:10 PM
    Reading the article it seems that the DWP themselves identified the errors and is working their way through claims to ensure they are being paid correctly, although it also seems this is happening very slowly.
    I would suggest that anyone who thinks they are being underpaid looks up on the internet to see what the current rates of ESA are.
    Ex Board Guide
    • NellieNewbie
    • By NellieNewbie 17th Nov 17, 11:38 PM
    • 110 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    NellieNewbie
    • #4
    • 17th Nov 17, 11:38 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Nov 17, 11:38 PM
    I moved from IB to ESA as part of the national rollout. I don't think the underpayment can't be related to the rate of ESA because as far as I can see the rate is quite straightforward.

    However, I do remember querying if arrears back to the date IB was abolished would be paid and was told no arrears are payable. I thought this was odd because my IB was lower than my ESA and if I had been transferred early in the rollout, my benefit would have been higher much sooner. Working on that basis, I'm wondering if everybody should have been paid the higher rate from the abolition of IB and not from when they were transferred from IB to ESA.

    I was hoping someone on here from the DWP would know the details.
    • NellieNewbie
    • By NellieNewbie 18th Nov 17, 1:14 AM
    • 110 Posts
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    NellieNewbie
    • #5
    • 18th Nov 17, 1:14 AM
    • #5
    • 18th Nov 17, 1:14 AM
    I think I have found the answer and it's to do with Disability Premiums. At the time of transfer DWP checked entitlement to both ESA(Cont) and ESA(IR). The claimants affected are those who qualified for a Disability Premium payable as part of the ESA(IR) calculation. When comparing the ESA(Cont) entitlement to the ESA(IR) entitlement, the Disability Premium was missed off the calculation and this means those affected have been underpaid ESA(IR) every week up to the amount of the relevant Disability Premium.

    Example
    Carlton is entitled to IB of £91.40. During the conversion phase the Secretary of State establishes that he has no other income. Following application of the WCA, Carlton is placed in the support group. On conversion, Carlton is entitled to ESA of £110.50 made up of ESA(Cont) of £96.85 and ESA(IR) of £13.65 (EDP).

    Hope this makes sense. Unbelievably the problem was identified by welfare rights groups in 2014 and the National Association of Welfare Rights Advisers (NAWRA) has been campaigning for the government for a trawl exercise (Damian Green and David Gauke involved). Last month the government said it was looking into the problem. A lot of these cases were identified through the appeals process, so that might account for the low number of cases reviewed to date.


    More information here

    https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/5928/P135


    Sadly I don't think this will apply to me because my husband works full time.
    • Muttleythefrog
    • By Muttleythefrog 18th Nov 17, 1:49 AM
    • 11,898 Posts
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    Muttleythefrog
    • #6
    • 18th Nov 17, 1:49 AM
    • #6
    • 18th Nov 17, 1:49 AM
    Interesting... I did wonder and I did scan unsuccessfully to see if I could find out. In my mind given the big figures the BBC were talking about as averages over a small number of years I was taking a punt that seems to be right. So Enhanced and/or Severe disability premiums not applied when they should have been for those who qualified. It seems the matter indeed was recognised back in 2014 but finally the DWP are catching up under pressure to look into it. Quite a bungle... even by DWP standards.


    Cue the next issue... backdated monies awarded and rules on capital to eventually consider.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
    • NellieNewbie
    • By NellieNewbie 18th Nov 17, 2:15 AM
    • 110 Posts
    • 133 Thanks
    NellieNewbie
    • #7
    • 18th Nov 17, 2:15 AM
    • #7
    • 18th Nov 17, 2:15 AM
    It's definitely not a quick fix for the DWP. It doesn't have the information to simply reassess and pay arrears. Not only are we talking about potential changes of circumstances for existing claimants, there's all the closed cases including people who are now dead. This is a big mess especially when ESA(IR) is a gateway benefit to many other things like free glasses, help with the cost of going to hospital, even free prescriptions.
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 18th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
    • 1,860 Posts
    • 3,925 Thanks
    IAmWales
    • #8
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
    • #8
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:20 AM
    Reading the article it seems that the DWP themselves identified the errors and is working their way through claims to ensure they are being paid correctly, although it also seems this is happening very slowly.
    I would suggest that anyone who thinks they are being underpaid looks up on the internet to see what the current rates of ESA are.
    Originally posted by venison
    Nonsense, welfare rights advisors have been raising this issue for several years. Don't ever rely on BBC journos to report govt negligence honestly. If anyone only skimmed the article they'd think it was a Labour govt at fault, them being mentioned twice, the coalition once and the Tories not at all!

    To add to the issue with some claims they are trying to limit the time of backdating. I'll explain further later if no one else does beforehand.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 18th Nov 17, 11:38 AM
    • 4,993 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    • #9
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:38 AM
    • #9
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:38 AM
    It's definitely not a quick fix for the DWP. It doesn't have the information to simply reassess and pay arrears. Not only are we talking about potential changes of circumstances for existing claimants, there's all the closed cases including people who are now dead. This is a big mess especially when ESA(IR) is a gateway benefit to many other things like free glasses, help with the cost of going to hospital, even free prescriptions.
    Originally posted by NellieNewbie
    Definitely not going to be a quick fix. Apart from not having the information, they don't have the staff available to reassess 75,000 claims in what might be called 'a timely manner'. So many people have been pulled off ESA, IS etc for UC that staff are stretched just to manage the day-to-day workload.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 18th Nov 17, 1:28 PM
    • 3,160 Posts
    • 1,915 Thanks
    epitome
    There are thousands of cases being overpaid and thousands being underpaid. The DWP has a department that is trying to deal with these cases. They do scans of all claimants and throw up all the cases that might have errors. They do this for combinations of benefits such as

    State Pension / ESA
    State Pension / CA
    DLA / ESA
    DLA / CA
    PIP / CA
    PIP / ESA
    PIP / JSA
    CA / ESA
    Claimants or partners in prison is another type.

    etc etc etc etc

    These results come up with either overpayment or underpayment or neither.

    The errors above are not linked to IB Migration
    I don't know if they have an IB Migration scan but it would be difficult to make one for conts Vs IR as the computer does not know if IR was assessed at migration or not.

    Previously mentioned on this thread, nellie...said EDP not being paid on migration.

    If someone had DLA, IS & IB and had EDP then ESA should be Income Related and EDP should be there. The only way EDP could not be there is if it was migrated only as conts and did not include the IR, Or the TA was input but the DLA was not, there is already a scan for such cases DLA/ESA

    If someone had only SDA or IB then there would be no automatic EDP on ESA because only comes with ESA(IR). But DWP should have sent an ESA3 at migration to check for eligibility. If an ESA3 was not sent then if claimant asks for an ESA3 5 years later the DWP will backdate the ESA IR those 5 years, if there is no evidence an ESA3 was sent at migration.

    If someone is already on ESA IR and is entitled to be paid EDP by virtue of Support Group...then the EDP is paid automatically by the computer, so it cannot ever be missing from the claim.

    If someone is paid ESA(IR) and is not in the Support Group, but they have DLA HRC or PIPCE but the disability benefit is not known to ESA then EDP is not being paid. When ESA is made aware either through a scan or by the claimant then EDP arrears will be paid.

    What exactly the 75,000 claimants figure relates to I don't know, but it could include all of the current scans that the DWP has for the above

    i.e. the 75,000 could just be all the current outstanding scans including all the benefit combinations that they do and all the prisoners, and some are under and some are over and some are neither.

    The article, however, just says "wrongly calculated" which could be under or over
    The article also is quite specific dates 2011 - 2015 , the scans I talk about are not limited to any years and can be new errors that have occured last month.
    The DWP have had this error scanning team for a lot longer than since 2016 at least 15 years possibly 25 years. If the DWP only became aware in 2016 of these 75,000 it could have been as result of a scan. But the department is aware of many thousands of other errors as well as these then.


    The article is actually useless because it does not give an example of what error or errors they are talking about. Can't people ask the BBC for more explanation? I'm not going to but I thought there was a comments section at the bottom of the news pages.

    I love the token benefit claimant who has been told of underpayments, but maybe not told of overpayments, and who does not know if he himself has been wrongly paid.
    Last edited by epitome; 18-11-2017 at 2:07 PM.
    • venison
    • By venison 18th Nov 17, 5:10 PM
    • 2,145 Posts
    • 2,289 Thanks
    venison
    Nonsense, welfare rights advisors have been raising this issue for several years. Don't ever rely on BBC journos to report govt negligence honestly. If anyone only skimmed the article they'd think it was a Labour govt at fault, them being mentioned twice, the coalition once and the Tories not at all!

    To add to the issue with some claims they are trying to limit the time of backdating. I'll explain further later if no one else does beforehand.
    Originally posted by IAmWales
    They may have been trying for three years but have obviously failed miserably, however I apologise if anything I said was in any way "nonsense" I am always happy to be corrected...nicely of course.
    Ex Board Guide
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 18th Nov 17, 5:47 PM
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    TELLIT01
    [QUOTE=IAmWales;73429352If anyone only skimmed the article they'd think it was a Labour govt at fault, them being mentioned twice, the coalition once and the Tories not at all!

    [/QUOTE]

    Well it was introduced by a Labour government who set up the framework and systems to enable it to run, allowed to continue by the coalition, and still not corrected by the Conservatives. I think any of the political parties would do well to think hard before casting the first stone!
    • Hounded out
    • By Hounded out 19th Nov 17, 11:29 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Hounded out
    !!!8220;
    Nonsense, welfare rights advisors have been raising this issue for several years. Don't ever rely on BBC journos to report govt negligence honestly. If anyone only skimmed the article they'd think it was a Labour govt at fault, them being mentioned twice, the coalition once and the Tories not at all!

    To add to the issue with some claims they are trying to limit the time of backdating. I'll explain further later if no one else does beforehand.
    Originally posted by IAmWales
    !!!8221;They may have been trying for three years but have obviously failed miserably, however I apologise if anything I said was in any way "nonsense" I am always happy to be corrected...nicely of course. (Posted by Venison)

    Glad to see that MSE members are still getting along so handsomely lol
    • Gig1968
    • By Gig1968 19th Nov 17, 5:17 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Gig1968
    Interesting times indeed.
    The DWP clearly have little idea of what they are doing.
    Two years ago I think it was I had a payment of thirty pounds due to them forgetting to give me previous three years Xmas bonus of ten pounds.
    I'm not expecting any further payments even though I began esa in 2011. Love to see those politicians live on £102 pounds a week. They probably spend that each day on lunch.
    • venison
    • By venison 19th Nov 17, 5:18 PM
    • 2,145 Posts
    • 2,289 Thanks
    venison

    Nonsense, welfare rights advisors have been raising this issue for several years. Don't ever rely on BBC journos to report govt negligence honestly. If anyone only skimmed the article they'd think it was a Labour govt at fault, them being mentioned twice, the coalition once and the Tories not at all!

    To add to the issue with some claims they are trying to limit the time of backdating. I'll explain further later if no one else does beforehand.
    Originally posted by IAmWales
    ”They may have been trying for three years but have obviously failed miserably, however I apologise if anything I said was in any way "nonsense" I am always happy to be corrected...nicely of course. (Posted by Venison)

    Glad to see that MSE members are still getting along so handsomely lol
    Originally posted by Hounded out
    We do try
    Ex Board Guide
    • epitome
    • By epitome 21st Nov 17, 12:30 AM
    • 3,160 Posts
    • 1,915 Thanks
    epitome
    I have more news, elicited from DWP, if you want to check you can phone and ask,,,they have a sheet given to them to explain to you what it is all about.

    Anyway...It is all about IB Migration those who were on IB who should have been assessed for ESA IR but were not. The staff and managers have known for years that ESA3 were not being sent as they should have been,,,,so for DWP to claim they only found out about this in December 2016 is rubbish.

    You will be asked if when you migrated there was any reason you would not have got ESA IR , then they will send you an ESA3. But the sheet does not tell the staff to tell you to put the date of migration onto your ESA3 I think that is a major ommission.

    Anyway It has always been the case that you could ask for this when you became aware, and they do backdate, although you might have had to fight for it to be backdated. And there were some basic rules as to if backdating would be allowed. If there was a note on your file that an ESA3 had been sent at migration, then it is your fault not DWP fault that you did not return it.

    I imagine nothing has changed in this respect. IamWales mentioned backdating above.

    It will be backdated if there is no evidence an ESA3 was sent.
    If there is evidence then you will not get any backdating.
    • butterflies56
    • By butterflies56 19th Dec 17, 2:05 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    butterflies56
    I am one of these claimants!
    I have more news, elicited from DWP, if you want to check you can phone and ask,,,they have a sheet given to them to explain to you what it is all about.

    Anyway...It is all about IB Migration those who were on IB who should have been assessed for ESA IR but were not. The staff and managers have known for years that ESA3 were not being sent as they should have been,,,,so for DWP to claim they only found out about this in December 2016 is rubbish.

    You will be asked if when you migrated there was any reason you would not have got ESA IR , then they will send you an ESA3. But the sheet does not tell the staff to tell you to put the date of migration onto your ESA3 I think that is a major ommission.

    Anyway It has always been the case that you could ask for this when you became aware, and they do backdate, although you might have had to fight for it to be backdated. And there were some basic rules as to if backdating would be allowed. If there was a note on your file that an ESA3 had been sent at migration, then it is your fault not DWP fault that you did not return it.

    I imagine nothing has changed in this respect. IamWales mentioned backdating above.

    It will be backdated if there is no evidence an ESA3 was sent.
    If there is evidence then you will not get any backdating.
    Originally posted by epitome

    Just received decision letter this week where I have had EDP backdated to October 2014 and received payment from that date even though I have met all the criteria since IB/ESA migration date to receive EDP!
    I then looked up the Case on Righstnet.
    DWP say that "By law we are unable to pay you for any period before October 2014 (Section 27 of the Social Security Act 1998).

    Apparently the DWP are using 'Error of Law' rather than 'Official Error' to avoid payments being backdated before October 2014.
    Last edited by butterflies56; 19-03-2018 at 12:26 PM. Reason: personal info
    • butterflies56
    • By butterflies56 8th Feb 18, 5:02 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    butterflies56
    Here's a link to another thread with updates
    Letter received from DWP re their decision

    from post no 16 onwards

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5761965#topofpage
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 8th Feb 18, 6:10 PM
    • 4,993 Posts
    • 5,396 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    I think I have found the answer and it's to do with Disability Premiums. At the time of transfer DWP checked entitlement to both ESA(Cont) and ESA(IR).
    Originally posted by NellieNewbie
    The problem stems from the fact that DWP were supposed to check for any entitlement to IR benefit, but in many cases failed to do so. IB was entirely dependant on NI Contribution and didn't have an Income Related element. Really defending the indefensible, but staff were put under huge pressure to get all transfers to ESA done by a date and, not for the first or last time, weren't provided with the resources to do the job properly.
    • 45002
    • By 45002 22nd Mar 18, 10:57 AM
    • 422 Posts
    • 381 Thanks
    45002
    Investigation into errors in ESA payments
    National Audit Office, 21 March 2018.

    https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/investigation-into-errors-in-employment-and-support-allowance/
    MSE censored my signature Again, No reason given
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