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  • FIRST POST
    • scorpi06
    • By scorpi06 11th Nov 17, 5:21 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 6Thanks
    scorpi06
    Another CEL claim form
    • #1
    • 11th Nov 17, 5:21 PM
    Another CEL claim form 11th Nov 17 at 5:21 PM
    Hi all, thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.

    The car park in question had notices stating that it was free for one hour and 1 / hr thereafter. Payment had to be made within 10mins of entering the car park. The car park was monitored by automated cameras (not known at the time of parking). The driver parked the car and called the number to pay by phone. Having not previously used this system, they entered all information asked for (reg, debit card details) and then when finished, hung up, expecting that they had done what was required to pay for parking (but having simply registered to use the service, no money was debited). The pay by phone company have confirmed that a call was made on the day - please see their email below. The car park signs did say the "location number" had to be entered, but having followed the instructions on the automated pay by phone service, the driver presumed they had successfully paid for parking. The driver stayed over the "free hour" by 14 minutes and was sent this PCN.

    Incident 27/01/2017
    Parking charge notice issued 03/02/2017
    Final reminder before action 06/03/2017
    Letter before action - 24/04/2017
    Letter from ZZPS 24/05/2017
    2nd letter from ZZPS 12/06/2017
    Letter from Write Hassall solicitors 03/07/2017
    Claim form dated 11/10/2017 therefore served 17/10/2017
    AOS filed on 30/10/2017
    POC dated 11/10/2017, post mark 01/11/2017 therefore served 02/11/2017


    Email from pay by phone;

    Hi Xxxxx,

    Thank you.

    Our records show that on 27/01/17 you made a call to the automated line at 11:42.
    We can see that you entered your card payment details and then terminated the call without proceeding to book parking.
    Please note that in order to make a payment customers need to also enter the 4 digit location code and select and confirm the desired length of their parking. As you did not complete all the steps required no booking was made on this date.
    We can, however, see that you did attempt to book a parking session on 27/01/17 and advise you to appeal against the parking charge notice by contacting the car park operator directly.

    Kind Regards,

    Customer Support
    Phone and Pay Parking

    Before having read LOC's posts re the POCs, I sent my AOS on 30/11/17.

    Here is the letter I have copied from other users in the same position to send to the CCBC and copy to CEL;

    10th November 2017

    Dear Sirs

    Claim number: XXXXXXXX

    Regarding Claim Form XXXXXXXX, I am writing to complain that the Claimant has deliberately backdated the Particulars Of Claim which were served separate to the claim form pursuant to CPR Rule 7.4 (1)(b).

    The Claim form was issued on 11th October, stating that the detailed Particulars of Claim would be provided to me within 14 days after service of the claim form.

    The further Particulars of Claim and covering letter were sent on 1st November 2017. As such, according to Rule 6.3(b) they were served on the 2nd November 2017. However they were dated the 11th October 2017. These dates mean that my defence is therefore not due until 16th November 2017 (Rule 15.4(1)(a)).

    The Claimant has made a poor attempt to conceal the actual date on which it served the further Particulars by backdating them by 21 days, together with the covering letter. This is clearly demonstrated by the post mark on the envelope they arrived in, which shows the date of posting as 1st Nov, a copy of which I have provided as evidence.

    The Civil Procedure Rules are quite clear under Rule 3.8 the court should apply the sanctions unless the Claimant has applied for relief under 3.9.

    I cannot fathom any reason for the Claimant having backdated its further Particulars of Claim, other than to try to gain an advantage by making it appear that I have filed my defence late, or by confusing me into having to rush to file my defence prematurely. This is a serious matter and I ask that this is formally noted on the court file.

    This is a commercial Claimant pursuing many other claims of this nature. It must therefore have knowledge of, and understand, the Civil Procedure Rules and these sorts of blatant breaches should not be allowed because they prejudice Litigants in Person who are not versed in court procedures and the court rules. It is with some difficulty that I have understood the various obligations and time limits set out in the Civil Procedure Rules, as a Litigant in Person, whereas the commercial Claimant has no such excuse.

    Yours Faithfully,

    XXXXXXXXXX



    - After reading this forum I am still unsure whether my defence is due 14 days post AOS as I filed it early or 14 days post the POC being served.
    - Do you think, considering the pay by phone issue, the defence should come from a named driver or still from the keeper?

    Thanks in advance. Apologies for yet another CEL thread.
    Last edited by scorpi06; 11-11-2017 at 5:31 PM.
Page 2
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 26th Feb 18, 11:38 AM
    • 35,912 Posts
    • 20,184 Thanks
    Quentin
    I wish people like you would keep you opinions to yourself about where and when I post. I have my own thread thank you very much and was simply asking a question related to Scorpio's post. If you've not got anything positive to add, please don't bother butting in.
    Originally posted by ixworth
    You must be able to see how busy this forum is.

    We cannot e expected to know whether or not each poster has their own thread or not.

    Keep everything on your own thread is for the best as each thread has the background which may be different.

    I didn't express any opinion did I?? Just gave you some advice.

    You don't have to take it, but no need to be unpleasant if you aren't happy
    • ixworth
    • By ixworth 26th Feb 18, 11:56 AM
    • 52 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    ixworth
    I'm sorry Quentin; just having a bad day. I normally delete posts like that before I send them.


    Not saying I agree with your point but you're right, there was no need to use an unpleasant tone.
    • scorpi06
    • By scorpi06 12th Mar 18, 3:00 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    scorpi06
    Hi all,
    Dilemma: I've moved away from where I originally requested my hearing to be - 325miles away.
    I'm considering not going to my hearing as I will need to take at least a day off which will cost me several hundred s plus travel.
    I believe it'll be touch and go whether I will be awarded the full pay as I understand this is only if the judge deems the claimant has acted unreasonably. Is this correct?
    Also, how do I get to know if CEL withdraw the claim?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • 7,713 Posts
    • 7,457 Thanks
    KeithP
    What date is your hearing?

    Have CEL paid the hearing fee?
    .
    • scorpi06
    • By scorpi06 12th Mar 18, 3:34 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    scorpi06
    This Friday. The hearing fee was due by the 16th of Feb so I assume they have as I haven't heard anything different. I know they have previously either withdrawn or not turned up on the day in other peoples cases, not sure what their intentions are with mine.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Mar 18, 3:36 PM
    • 7,713 Posts
    • 7,457 Thanks
    KeithP
    This Friday. The hearing fee was due by the 16th of Feb so I assume they have as I haven't heard anything different. I know they have previously either withdrawn or not turned up on the day in other peoples cases, not sure what their intentions are with mine.
    Originally posted by scorpi06
    Why not phone the court and ask if they've paid the hearing fee?

    Have you told the court you have moved?
    If not, you won't hear from them will you?

    Have you told CEL you've moved?
    .
    • scorpi06
    • By scorpi06 12th Mar 18, 3:42 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    scorpi06
    The court have been writing to my original (parents) address - so I received their Notice of Allocation to the Small Claims Track via my parents despite the move. I move around a lot so keep my parents address on most official docs.

    Just spoken to the court - said they can't be sure because they have a backlog but they think the fees have not been paid. They will confirm tomorrow.
    Last edited by scorpi06; 12-03-2018 at 4:24 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Mar 18, 6:12 PM
    • 58,533 Posts
    • 72,030 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Just spoken to the court - said they can't be sure because they have a backlog but they think the fees have not been paid. They will confirm tomorrow.
    If they say the fees were paid (and we would be surprised) ask if you can quickly email the court to urgently pass to the Judge, a request that the matter is heard 'on the papers' because you now live 325 miles away from this court, and wish the Judge to know that you will be unable to attend.

    I doubt you will need to ask that, but if they've paid the fees, it will be necessary.

    DO NOT JUST NOT TURN UP.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • scorpi06
    • By scorpi06 13th Mar 18, 3:19 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    scorpi06
    GREAT NEWS - they haven't paid the court fees and so the hearing has been cancelled!
    The court will write to me to confirm too.

    Now, about claiming costs from them, I already wrote them an email response to their earlier offer to settle asking them to settle my costs but received no response. Is there some other way to claim costs?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Mar 18, 3:38 PM
    • 2,765 Posts
    • 3,438 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You need to get the court to order it
    I would suggest you have next to no chance of getting any, as you would have to show UNREASONABLE BEHAVIOUR as your ordinary claimable costs can ONLY be claimed on a hearing.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Mar 18, 1:19 AM
    • 58,533 Posts
    • 72,030 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    GREAT NEWS - they haven't paid the court fees and so the hearing has been cancelled!
    The court will write to me to confirm too.

    Now, about claiming costs from them, I already wrote them an email response to their earlier offer to settle asking them to settle my costs but received no response. Is there some other way to claim costs?
    Originally posted by scorpi06
    That's a win, so well done!

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • scorpi06
    • By scorpi06 14th Mar 18, 6:37 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    scorpi06
    Thank you everyone who has helped me through this - I'm over the moon and still can't believe it!
    Good luck to everyone else still fighting!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Mar 18, 10:34 PM
    • 58,533 Posts
    • 72,030 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    A classic example of a CEL case defended and discontinued.

    Would that more newbies just read a few recent threads about CEL claims and didn't start a new one (all over again, like Groundhog day for us) asking what to do about a CEL claim...

    Yours is a typical shining example of what to do to see off CEL. Well done!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 19th Mar 18, 11:36 AM
    • 2,140 Posts
    • 3,594 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Read the costs application on Pepperlini's thread and do a similar one. Don't forget to adapt the facts as they apply to your case. Eg. the old Practice Direction would not apply, but the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims would (peperlini's document was based on the PD not the Protocol because of the timing of her claim - the Protocol came into force in October - but the obligations are really very similar, you just need to adapt the references). I'll find you a link and post it in a minute.


    You just apply on paper, so you've got nothing to lose.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 19th Mar 18, 11:44 AM
    • 2,140 Posts
    • 3,594 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73691365&postcount=62

    The above is a link to peperlini's thread. I've just seen that the court ultimately refused to award costs, but I would say that the legal basis upon which the court did so was actually wrong (and I've posted about that at the end of the thread). And nothing ventured, nothing gained.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
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