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  • FIRST POST
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th Nov 17, 11:10 PM
    • 24Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Lauybob
    PCN to keeper questions
    • #1
    • 8th Nov 17, 11:10 PM
    PCN to keeper questions 8th Nov 17 at 11:10 PM
    Hi guys

    I’ve had a good read of the newbies sticky thread about what to do in for PCN’s.

    Short story, had a windscreen parking ticket at a residential site which require a permit to be displayed (live and own the space which had ticket, just the permit slipped off the dash). Waited until I received a NTK letter which I’ve now got. The parking company are members of IPC so I know which template I’ve got to use. So my question is, which may sound stupid is do we put all the questions in the template even if some of them are already shown in the NTK (e.g photos with time stamps etc) ?

    Also once I send the template, do I just wait for a reply and go from there?

    Sorry if these questions have been asked before but couldn’t find anything clearing up what I’m asking.

    Thanks.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Nov 17, 11:39 PM
    • 19,296 Posts
    • 24,548 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 8th Nov 17, 11:39 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Nov 17, 11:39 PM
    in theory , yes , do it anyway , make them work for a living

    if you want to remove any of the questions because the evidence is in your hand , do so

    whatever you do wont alter the outcome

    they routinely reject all initial appeals, regardless

    even if you said the driver went to the ISS and the keeper had gone to MARS and died on landing , they would still reject it

    then its IGNORE MODE for 6 years , UNLESS you get an LBC or an MCOL in the post (do not use the IAS , kangaroo court , no , no , dont even think about it)

    then come back for advice again at LBC or MCOL stage

    meanwhile check your lease or AST or whatever about the parking rules (if any are mentioned at all) - plus complain to the M.A. and get it cancelled

    the PPC is not there to harass residents

    see the posts on here by daniel san and hairray
    Last edited by Redx; 08-11-2017 at 11:42 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 9th Nov 17, 7:52 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    • #3
    • 9th Nov 17, 7:52 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Nov 17, 7:52 AM
    Hi

    Thanks for your help!

    With regards to the lease, they’ve made an additional development regulation under clause 8(b) of the lease which says “the management company shall be entitled to enter into agreements which it deems necessary for the efficient and proper organisation and running of the estate”.

    Apparently we are obliged to comply with this as new regulations are made binding by sixth schedule part 1 clause 17 of the lease (covenants by lesser and management company) “to comply with and observe any reasonable regulations which the management company may make to govern the use of the apartments and the reserved property and for the food of the management of the same.”

    So where does this leave me? Is It even worth emailing/writing to the M.A as the NTK says it’s no point as it’s nothing the MA can do at this point?

    Should I just send the template and do nothing else as you say?

    Thanks for your help!
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Nov 17, 10:57 AM
    • 3,459 Posts
    • 4,320 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #4
    • 9th Nov 17, 10:57 AM
    • #4
    • 9th Nov 17, 10:57 AM
    “the management company shall be entitled to enter into agreements which it deems necessary for the efficient and proper organisation and running of the estate”.

    That doesnt state they can force YOU into
    1) being forced to contract for somerthing you already have, namely the right to park
    2) being forced to contract with a third party who is a complete stranger to you and your lease, which has primacy
    3) being forced to make any payment to anyone, outside of the ground rent payment covered in your lease.

    "reasonable regulations "
    A regulation which leaves you worse off is unreasonable. A regulation trying to do the above, is unreasonable. And, in addition, the regulation just says the MA can enter agreements. It is rediculously loosely worded, and does not authorise them to do anythign specific.
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 9th Nov 17, 6:04 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    • #5
    • 9th Nov 17, 6:04 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Nov 17, 6:04 PM
    Thanks for the very insightful information all.

    So I’m going to email the PPC with the template. What do I do if I get a reply? Just ignore until I get a LBC or MCOL?

    Also is it worth emailing the MA about the points you guys just stated?

    Thanks again everyone for your help
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Nov 17, 11:41 PM
    • 61,808 Posts
    • 74,693 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 9th Nov 17, 11:41 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Nov 17, 11:41 PM
    What do I do if I get a reply? Just ignore until I get a LBC or MCOL?

    Also is it worth emailing the MA about the points you guys just stated?
    Yes and yes.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 9th Nov 17, 11:51 PM
    • 3,459 Posts
    • 4,320 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 9th Nov 17, 11:51 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Nov 17, 11:51 PM
    Yes, telling the MA you do not recognise the ppc as having any legitimacy over you, and you require the ma to instruct their agents that they must not issue any tickets to any vehicle parked with your permission and in accordance with your lease. You don’t care how they achieve that.
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 11th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    • #8
    • 11th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
    • #8
    • 11th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
    I've now sent an online appeal to the PPC, and also emailed the MA to get them to cancel the ticket! I will update if I get any news, or start a new thread if I receive a LBC or MCOL.

    Thanks for your help everyone

    Hopefully some of these replies will help anyone else caught up in a similar situation!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Nov 17, 10:45 AM
    • 19,507 Posts
    • 30,865 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 11th Nov 17, 10:45 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Nov 17, 10:45 AM
    or start a new thread if I receive a LBC or MCOL.
    NO!

    Please don’t start a new thread, use this one as it contains all the context regarding the charge.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th May 18, 12:28 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    Hi guys,

    I've just received a LBC letter in the post from Gladstones Solicitors.

    What do you advise I do next?

    The copy of the letter is here (cant post links) imgur.com/a/yc2gepx
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 8th May 18, 1:09 PM
    • 3,209 Posts
    • 2,129 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Here is your link ....
    https://imgur.com/a/yc2gepx


    ..... but you know what to do if you have been here a while posting at various stages, go back to Newbies and read (re-read) post #2
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th May 18, 2:07 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    Sorry I should have been clearer. Basically I write a defence based on my own space (parking prankster and defence by Johnersh) and then who do I send that to?

    Do I send a signed copy to them or just email them?

    Obviously, I'll start drafting up my defence and post it on here for feedback before doing anything.

    Am I missing anything else?

    Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th May 18, 2:14 PM
    • 9,312 Posts
    • 9,596 Thanks
    KeithP
    You are not quite at the defence writing stage yet.
    That comes after you have received a Claim Form from the County Courts Business Centre.

    You need to respond robustly to the LBC.
    There are sample responses in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.
    .
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th May 18, 2:21 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    Oh okay, jumping the gun a bit.

    So do a robust response (as per LoadsofChildren123 and Daniel San). I'll draft up response and post it on here for feedback.

    One other thing, who do I send the response to? Gladstones email or an actual letter in the post?


    Thanks!
    Last edited by Lauybob; 08-05-2018 at 2:24 PM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th May 18, 2:32 PM
    • 3,459 Posts
    • 4,320 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    By email is fine.
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th May 18, 3:29 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace
    High Leigh Park Golf Club
    Warrington
    Cheshire
    WA16 6AA

    8th May 2018

    Your Ref:xxxxxxxxxxx

    Dear Sirs,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of XXXXXXX.
    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1; establishing yourself as the creditor
    8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form

    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) ; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Yours faithfully XXXX


    I’ve basically used the reply Daniel-San used. In my lease, the 4th Schedule clause 10 states that I have ‘the exclusive right to park a private motor vehicle in the car parking spaced edge blue on the plot plan subject to any reasonable regulations which the Management Company may make in relation thereto’. Obviously I own and paid for the apartment (and therefore lease) means I already have a right to park in the space (with or without a permit) before the management agent introduced a PPC. This basically means that this claim means I will be charged twice for a space I already paid for.

    Also I’ve touched upon it before but the regulation under clause 8(b) of the lease says “the management company shall be entitled to enter into agreements which it deems necessary for the efficient and proper organisation and running of the estate”. As nosferatu said, it doesn’t force me into
    "1) being forced to contract for something I already have, namely the right to park
    2) being forced to contract with a third party who is a complete stranger to you and your lease, which has primacy
    3) being forced to make any payment to anyone, outside of the ground rent payment covered in your lease."

    Also a new regulation was made binding by sixth schedule part 1 clause 17 of the lease (covenants by lesser and management company) “to comply with and observe any reasonable regulations which the management company may make to govern the use of the apartments and the reserved property and for the food of the management of the same.” And again as nosferatu said a regulation which leaves you worse off is unreasonable. "A regulation trying to do the above, is unreasonable. And, in addition, the regulation just says the MA can enter agreements. It is ridiculously loosely worded, and does not authorise them to do anything specific."

    Should I include any of the 3 points I’ve mentioned above into the letter aswell?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th May 18, 3:42 PM
    • 61,808 Posts
    • 74,693 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form
    If you have a LBC from Gladstones then it will have all of that...

    I would not use much of the template, and instead send G's a copy of your lease and tell them you intend to counter-claim and/or get an injunction against their client for trespassing in your land and misusing your DVLA data (if they got it from the DVLA, not from you in an early appeal).

    Your case is like this one, which also had a counter claim and similar lease wording:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74254917#post74254917

    Read the words of DJ Skelly and quote the case at Gladstones and show them your demised space is yours. Tell them to tell their client they are NOT authorised to set foot in your bay under any circumstances and that any permit or lack of permit in that bay is immaterial because you do not authorise the parking firm and no contract applies on your owned/demised land.

    residential site which require a permit
    No, it doesn't, stop dancing to their tune. Opt out immediately and get the parking firm kicked out too, if you can persuade the other residents to support your view, like here:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5840105

    Also read the threads by

    hairray

    and

    Daniel san

    which include some really strong letters to Managing Agents. Stop sleepwalking into a potential contract by displaying a permit on your own land.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th May 18, 4:40 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    Thanks for your help Coupon-mad.

    I've drafted this so far.


    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace
    High Leigh Park Golf Club
    Warrington
    Cheshire
    WA16 6AA

    8th May 2018

    Your Ref:xxxxxxxxxxx

    Dear Sirs,
    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of XXXXXXX.
    I attach a copy of my lease which proves that the demised space in question belongs to myself. The lease shows that I have a right to park, and to take away that right or charge for that which was free, is such a change that it cannot be done without formal agreement. In a previous case similar to this:
    !!!8220;D7GF307F - UKCPM v Mr D - before Deputy District Judge Skelly on 1st February 2018 at Clerkenwell, a similar thin excuse of an argument from a private parking firm inflicting a nuisance on residents & visitors was dismissed. When not sitting as a Judge, DDJ Skelly is a barrister specialising in property law. The managing agents were named as a party to the lease, and there was a clause which said that they could make regulations for the 'comfort and convenience' of lessees. However, this could not excuse a change as intrusive and onerous as to override the grant of free resident/visitor parking, effectively restricting and charging for a right previously enjoyed, without the required consensus and deed of variation. It would be like the agents suddenly stipulating that residents had to hang a Union Jack out of the window whenever they were at home; clearly unreasonable and not in the interests of the consumer.!!!8221;

    Also a derogation from my exclusive right to a parking bay infringes on my legal rights as a resident as in the case of !!!8216;Saeed v Plustrade Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 2011!!!8217;.

    You should inform your client that they are NOT authorised to set foot in my parking bay under any circumstance and that any permit or lack of permit shown is immaterial because I do not authorise the parking firm and no contract applies to me on my demised land.

    Unless you drop this claim immediately, I intend to counter-claim and/or get an injunction against your client for trespassing on my land and misusing my DVLA data.

    Yours faithfully
    XXXX

    Is that ok or should I change anything?

    Also with regards to sending them a copy of my lease, do I scan/photograph ALL of it or just the relevant part about the right to the parking space?

    Also there isn't an email address I can find for Gladstones Solicitors?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th May 18, 5:34 PM
    • 61,808 Posts
    • 74,693 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Looks good to me.

    Also with regards to sending them a copy of my lease, do I scan/photograph ALL of it or just the relevant part about the right to the parking space?
    I would send only the small bit that suits you.

    If they reply & ask for the rest, tell them their client must surely have already considered the leaseholders' rights and seen the Head Lease as part of their due diligence before rocking up and starting 'pseudo-enforcement'...like the suggested reply here!

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74251374#post74251374


    Search the forum for Gladstones email and you will find it posted on this forum.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Lauybob
    • By Lauybob 8th May 18, 6:48 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Lauybob
    Great, I will be sending that out to them within the next day or so.

    For people who have been following this thread, the email addresses for Gladstones are
    litigation@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk
    administration@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk
    enquiries@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk

    I imagine it'd be a good idea to send to all of them so to ensure they receive it?

    Thanks
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