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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Karl
    • By MSE Karl 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    • 68Posts
    • 21Thanks
    MSE Karl
    Smart Meters
    • #1
    • 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    Smart Meters 31st Oct 17 at 5:13 PM
    Hi!

    This is the discussion thread for the


    Click reply below to discuss. If you haven!!!8217;t already, join the forum to reply.
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 09-11-2017 at 2:25 PM.
Page 18
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 29th Mar 18, 12:22 PM
    • 4,143 Posts
    • 5,361 Thanks
    zeupater
    Hello mbmonty.

    Depending on the make and type of smart meter set up at individual properties, they cost around 18 pence to 80 pence a year to run.

    These costs are included within the standing charges - a daily amount to cover the fixed costs we pay when supplying energy.

    Malc
    Originally posted by E.ON Company Representative: Malc
    Hi Malc

    How does that work? ... anything which takes power from the consumer side of the meter is utilising metered energy which will be charged for - are you saying that all energy consumption resulting from smart-metering which is metered is netted off the standing charge for the consumer, in which case, what happens if comms range extenders or separate comms units are required for specific properties, do these attract additional credits to their standing charge? ...

    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • PennineAcute
    • By PennineAcute 29th Mar 18, 2:27 PM
    • 87 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    PennineAcute
    Getting a bit silly this. If the running costs of smart electricity meters is borne by the consumer, what about the running costs of non-smart digital electricity meters? These still need power!
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 29th Mar 18, 2:29 PM
    • 5,730 Posts
    • 3,516 Thanks
    Hengus
    Getting a bit silly this. If the running costs of smart electricity meters is borne by the consumer, what about the running costs of non-smart digital electricity meters? These still need power!
    Originally posted by PennineAcute
    It depends on which side of the meter the power is taken from.
    • PennineAcute
    • By PennineAcute 29th Mar 18, 3:08 PM
    • 87 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    PennineAcute
    It depends on which side of the meter the power is taken from.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    Well, although assuming can be very dangerous, it is probably not wrong to assume that if the consumer is paying for the running costs of their smart meter, then the consumer will also be paying for the running costs of their non-smart digital meter.

    Looking at the big-6, I very much doubt the extra 80p a year (as quoted by Malc) is making a massive inroad into their obscene profits.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 29th Mar 18, 3:26 PM
    • 1,350 Posts
    • 1,137 Thanks
    House Martin
    Well, although assuming can be very dangerous, it is probably not wrong to assume that if the consumer is paying for the running costs of their smart meter, then the consumer will also be paying for the running costs of their non-smart digital meter.

    Looking at the big-6, I very much doubt the extra 80p a year (as quoted by Malc) is making a massive inroad into their obscene profits.
    Originally posted by PennineAcute
    They are discussing the costs of running the freebie gadget.The one that most people bin or chuck in a drawer after a few weeks. That uses up to a quid a year !.ITS NOT A METER !
    All electric meters, digital , smart, analogue, are powered from the mains before the meter. .no charges to consumers.
    No suppliers make obscene profits.That is only in your imagination.
    All businesses need to make a profit.
    • PennineAcute
    • By PennineAcute 29th Mar 18, 4:52 PM
    • 87 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    PennineAcute
    They are discussing the costs of running the freebie gadget.The one that most people bin or chuck in a drawer after a few weeks. That uses up to a quid a year !.ITS NOT A METER !
    All electric meters, digital , smart, analogue, are powered from the mains before the meter. .no charges to consumers.
    No suppliers make obscene profits.That is only in your imagination.
    All businesses need to make a profit.
    Originally posted by House Martin
    I agree, a company that does not make a profit, ends up folding - through lack of cash.

    However, the big-6 have to keep their shareholders happy, thus they need to make as much profit as they can.

    Now, I can do without a TV and such (just) so the choice to buy is mine. However, doing without electricity and/or gas is slightly harder. So I stand by my obscene profit comment, when it is being made on essentials.

    To my reading, they were talking about the running costs of the smart meter, not the IHD.
    Last edited by PennineAcute; 29-03-2018 at 4:56 PM.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 29th Mar 18, 6:01 PM
    • 4,143 Posts
    • 5,361 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... No suppliers make obscene profits.That is only in your imagination.
    All businesses need to make a profit.
    Originally posted by House Martin
    Hi

    .. although the industry does make best use of vertical integration ...

    So, to the question at hand ..... Which is cheapest, a supplier making a healthy 33.8% P/S (Profit to Sales) margin, or three making a relatively unhealthy 10% ? ...


    A - One supplier, no internal sales :-
    vi0 - Fuel(50) + Cost(30) =70 - sell 105.76 - Profit 35.76 - P/S 33.8%

    The company is making a profit margin which could be seen to be high by customers and too high by 'on-the-ball' supply regulators.

    B - One Supply Group, using internal inter-company sales & accounting :-
    vi1 - Fuel = 50 + Cost 10 = 60 -sell 66.66 - Profit 6.66 - P/S 10%
    vi2 - Input 66.66 + Cost 10 = 76.66 - sell 85.18 - P/S 10%
    vi3 - Input 85.18 + Cost 10 = 95.18 - sell 105.76 - P/S 10%

    No component of the supply chain is making over 10% P/S, the 'not-on-the-ball' industry regulator concentrates on vi3 (supply) sales & margins and sees a profit made from supply to the consumer of just 10.58 (105.76-95.18), so 10%, resulting in the industry maintaining a position of - "No suppliers make obscene profits. That is only in your imagination. All businesses need to make a profit".

    However in both cases the product cost is the same, (50+30) vs (50+10+10+10), it's just the perception of whether you're being overcharged that's different! ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Michaelw
    • By Michaelw 1st Apr 18, 12:48 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Michaelw
    There appears to be an offer of Amazon gift cards for the installation of a smart meter.More here.

    my energy firm is now offering a bribe to get one and the rewards may improve

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-5554039/My-energy-firm-offering-bribe-smart-meter.html
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 1st Apr 18, 3:47 PM
    • 1,613 Posts
    • 2,124 Thanks
    badmemory
    They must be getting desperate if they need to bribe people to have one! But guess who is paying for the bribe. Two hints - it won't be their CEO & it won't be their shareholders.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 1st Apr 18, 4:37 PM
    • 4,143 Posts
    • 5,361 Thanks
    zeupater
    There appears to be an offer of Amazon gift cards for the installation of a smart meter.More here.

    my energy firm is now offering a bribe to get one and the rewards may improve

    http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-5554039/My-energy-firm-offering-bribe-smart-meter.html
    Originally posted by Michaelw
    Hi

    But the issue is that for every 30 'bribe' paid in vouchers, they stand to make over 500 in additional revenue from the same customer! ... but it certainly looks like they're starting to worry over the level of uptake despite all of the expensive advertising propaganda.

    A survey I recently saw suggests that proportion of energy customers having a negative view on smart-metering outnumber those with a positive view by between 3:1 & 5:1 (depending on the strength of the view) ... that's some slope for the project to climb and it seems to be getting steeper as consumers realise that despite the industry having claimed that the meters will be supplied for free, they will be charged a huge amount of money within their bills for what is a relatively cheap technology with little chance of delivering the promised energy savings ....

    I'll sit back and wait for the 'bribe' to be worth more than the total cost of the additional smart-meter charge, after-all the industry stands to save huge amounts of money in reduced meter visits & customer complaints & I've already paid for the replacement meter within past bills (infrastructure maintenance!) ..

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 01-04-2018 at 4:43 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Michaelw
    • By Michaelw 4th Apr 18, 5:30 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Michaelw
    Three-quarters of smart meter owners recommend one

    Around 82% of people with smart meters say they now have a better idea of what they are spending on energy, with the same proportion saying they have taken steps to reduce energy waste.

    http://www.energylivenews.com/2018/04/04/three-quarters-of-smart-meter-owners-recommend-one/
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 4th Apr 18, 11:41 PM
    • 4,143 Posts
    • 5,361 Thanks
    zeupater
    Three-quarters of smart meter owners recommend one

    Around 82% of people with smart meters say they now have a better idea of what they are spending on energy, with the same proportion saying they have taken steps to reduce energy waste.

    http://www.energylivenews.com/2018/04/04/three-quarters-of-smart-meter-owners-recommend-one/
    Originally posted by Michaelw
    Hi

    Surprise, a poll conducted by the organisation responsible for promoting smart-meters claims that there's support for smart-meters ... odd really because the poll I mentioned was also conducted by a large player in the sector and the results are almost completely diametrically opposed!

    Anyway, the really worrying statistic is that they're now crowing that 11million have now been installed, so if the DCC information given to parliament in February (as per previous post #257 on this thread referenced below) was correct (and why wouldn't it be!) then 'only' somewhere well over 99.99% of those meters will need rectification or replacement! ...
    Hi All

    Apparently questions have been asked in parliamentary committees and in house debates regarding smart-metering leading to the revelation that as of ....
    ... the end of January 2018 somewhere between 8 & 10 million smart-meters had been installed in the UK of which, according to the DCC, only around 250 conforming to the SMETS2 standard had been supplied for testing. Questions raised in Parliament related to the Smart Meters Bill on 5th February 2018 <Hansard v635 c1288> suggested that only 80 of the 250 supplied units had been installed to that date even though SMETS2 units should have been installed in volume from 2014 onwards ...
    Smart-Metering: A clever green solution rapidly becoming a white elephant?

    The article goes on to highlight & question the reason for extending project timescales by delaying the date ...
    ... by which licensable activities will have ceased from 2018 to 2023 is likely the first official recognition that the project is seriously behind schedule and unlikely to meet the 2020 deadline as specified by the EU ...
    ... also highlighting an inconsistency between the 80 SMETS2 linked to the DCC by January 2018 & previous (January 2017) claims made by the DCC that they had attained ...
    ... SMWAN coverage of 97% to in excess of 99% for installations in various areas ..
    ... apparently a test conducted before any of the 240 SMETS2 compliant meters had been made available for testing.


    There's also an interesting take on the validity of the BEIS project cost/benefit analysis with respect to delays and duplication ...

    Interesting ....

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    In my book, if they're not fully compliant with the SMETS2 specification, which should have been the case since 2014, they shouldn't be counted, so the real figure isn't around 11million ... it's less than 500 !!

    .... now that's what I'd classify as those responsible for maintaining a positive media presence simply spinning a story on a failing project, but at least their 'Gaz & Leccy' cartoons aren't quite as frequent, so that may be saying something ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 5th Apr 18, 12:45 PM
    • 4,957 Posts
    • 13,216 Thanks
    EachPenny
    National Grid should be ashamed
    I'm now getting emails from National Grid badgering me to get a smart meter fitted. Not a single word in the email says anything about it being optional.

    Near the bottom of the message is a huge orange button saying "BOOK INSTALLATION NOW".

    There is no button allowing me to say "No thanks (I don't want one of your useless meters)".

    Perturbed there was no apparent (legally required?) opt-out facility I was about to email them to complain. I double checked before risking making a fool of myself and noticed something at the very bottom right hand side of the screen. Zooming in, the word "Unsubscribe" appears - in tiny grey text - which all but disappears when viewed at normal resolution. Something like this:- Unsubscribe - although MSE sensibly doesn't have a light enough grey nor small enough font to accurately represent the original.

    Whatever your views on the benefits of smart meters it is an absolute scandal that this campaign is being carried out using some of the dodgiest marketing tricks going. The companies involved, and the Government, should hang their heads in shame for adopting the kind of tactics normally reserved to the shadiest of characters. It makes an absolute mockery of efforts to make people more aware of fraud and consumer rights.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 6th Apr 18, 3:20 PM
    • 110 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    mbmonty
    My biggest issue is that the public is paying for the industry to obtain a huge benefit.

    The programme costs seem to vary between 7bn and 13bn, which we will all pay for in the long run.

    It has been poorly implemented, loads of misleading people, giving them bricks that do not work when they switch supplier, I know they will do a firmware upgrade but honestly what a shambles.

    If this had not been mandated by Gov and given deadlines I very much doubt it would have passed the business case test that sit within large programmes and are supposed to be reviewed along the way.

    The so called consumer benefits are just rubbish, unless you count them not stealing your money with direct debits that they punish you not to take.

    Now if they had a consumer unit that was smart, devices you put all around your home that taught you how to reduce energy or did it for you then maybe that is something consumers could buy into if they wanted it, not be forced into it.

    However, look at the bigger picture, the large energy companies are making more money from gambling in the energy market than they are from supplying energy, they would not be able to profit in that gambling without our buying power, yet they continue to rob us blind.

    Now we have two of the big 6 wanting to merge and you can bet it will be allowed despite the fact that it ruins competition and makes it even harder for new entrants or existing ones that are struggling to grow because of that gambling.

    At the Tory conference in October, the Prime Minister announced legislation to rein in !!!8220;rip-off!!!8221; bills in her speech.



    Business and Energy Secretary Greg Clark said the savings from the new law would chip at the 1.4bn over-payments. CHIP away, just give people their money back NOW!



    After 2020, Ofgem will recommend to the Government whether the caps should be extended on an annual basis to 2023. WHY should this take years, when we all know we are being ripped off.


    Last month Theresa May said the bill would !!!8220;force energy companies to change their ways!!!8221; With the price cap.

    So we all know they are a bunch of C&(""&'s

    There was of course one loophole, the cap allowed for supplier costs, so all they are doing is artificially increasing their costs by gambling in the energy market.

    It is bad enough we give them billions for these dumb meters only to be shafted in our bills.

    The more I see of how this market functions the more I think we need to go back to the drawing board, maybe even nationalise if that is what it takes.

    It is clear the balance between consumers and shareholders is too conflicted.
    • MeterMan
    • By MeterMan 6th Apr 18, 11:56 PM
    • 302 Posts
    • 170 Thanks
    MeterMan

    After 2020, Ofgem will recommend to the Government whether the caps should be extended on an annual basis to 2023. WHY should this take years, when we all know we are being ripped off.

    Originally posted by mbmonty
    How would you propose a price cap works?
    • mbmonty
    • By mbmonty 7th Apr 18, 12:15 AM
    • 110 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    mbmonty
    How would you propose a price cap works?
    Originally posted by MeterMan
    In a normal market I would not have a price cap at all, but this market is messed up.

    I am not sure it can be fixed without nationalising and starting over, then banning this gambling, but as that is not going to happen I would screw down the companies so that their gambling pays us.

    I would limit the amount of profit they can earn to a ridiculously low amount, I would limit what they can pay in dividends until all the sensible money sold their shares, then I would break them up and buy them on the cheap.

    The idea of doing this cap then waiting x years then see what happens just shows they do not have a clue what they are doing.

    The cap has been cut back so much it is hardly going to be worth it and meanwhile the energy companies are tweaking the market to make even more profit at our expense.

    People need to be able to afford to heat, the price of energy is ridiculously high.

    If you give them an inch they will take a mile.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 7th Apr 18, 8:30 AM
    • 5,730 Posts
    • 3,516 Thanks
    Hengus
    In a normal market I would not have a price cap at all, but this market is messed up.

    I am not sure it can be fixed without nationalising and starting over, then banning this gambling, but as that is not going to happen I would screw down the companies so that their gambling pays us.

    I would limit the amount of profit they can earn to a ridiculously low amount, I would limit what they can pay in dividends until all the sensible money sold their shares, then I would break them up and buy them on the cheap.

    The idea of doing this cap then waiting x years then see what happens just shows they do not have a clue what they are doing.

    The cap has been cut back so much it is hardly going to be worth it and meanwhile the energy companies are tweaking the market to make even more profit at our expense.

    People need to be able to afford to heat, the price of energy is ridiculously high.

    If you give them an inch they will take a mile.
    Originally posted by mbmonty
    The facts do not back up your argument that the price of energy in the UK is 'ridiculously high'. I suspect that you are too young to know how bad many Nationalised industries were in the UK.

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/10186/8482435/Q12017_electricity_prices_graphics.pdf
    • quiet advisor
    • By quiet advisor 7th Apr 18, 1:36 PM
    • 117 Posts
    • 496 Thanks
    quiet advisor
    The facts do not back up your argument that the price of energy in the UK is 'ridiculously high'. I suspect that you are too young to know how bad many Nationalised industries were in the UK.

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/10186/8482435/Q12017_electricity_prices_graphics.pdf
    Originally posted by Hengus
    Totally agree re nationalised industries, having worked for one and subsequently in both large and small private companies. The Nat Ind was primarily run to benefit managers and staff by allowing an easy time and generous benefits, with low expectations of customer service as it didn't really matter as there was no competition. In addition, Nat Ind was used as one of the economic levers by sucessive governments, either starved of capital or forced to spend money to pump prime the economy - this lead to inefficient investment and generated a culture that it didn't really matter as the Nat Ind was not allowed to fail like a private company.

    My experience is that competition does improve customer service and prices . However, enhanced competition needs to be accompanied by adequate customer protection (e.g. regulation) to prevent market abuse.
    QA
    • Michaelw
    • By Michaelw 7th Apr 18, 1:43 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    Michaelw
    I've noticed the standing charge daily has risen to 30.400p on british gas smart meter prepayment for electricity, there does appear to be also increases in both gas and electricity prices.

    These tariff menues are of more use then daily use and need to be kept an eye on.

    https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/02/prepay-and-vulnerable-energy-customers-to-see-gas-and-electricity-bills-increase/
    Last edited by Michaelw; 07-04-2018 at 1:46 PM. Reason: Update
    • gf24
    • By gf24 9th Apr 18, 9:37 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    gf24
    I live in shared accommodation. Would a smart meter show which room in the house is using the most electric & save this information?
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