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  • FIRST POST
    • Mark4321
    • By Mark4321 21st Oct 17, 6:39 PM
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    Mark4321
    ESA and private pension
    • #1
    • 21st Oct 17, 6:39 PM
    ESA and private pension 21st Oct 17 at 6:39 PM
    Hi ,
    I am on ESA Contribution based and in the Support Group from 2014 , same year ( before ESA) was granted with my private ill pension. Obviously when I was applying for ESA
    I have informed DWP about this providing them all data they asked in the questionare including amount,my policy number and details of my ill pension provider. I have informed them later twice about my ill pension ( last time in Dec 2015 when I asked DWP for mandatory reconsideration as they placed me in WREG group and I was successful ). In Aug 2016 due to my condition deterioration I was placed in the higher group resulting in more money from my ill pension. Yesterday I have received letter from DWP that I made a fraud because I didn't inform them about my ill pension increase. I am shocked because first of all I had no idea I have to inform them about my private pension change. They already have all details about my ill pension and I would be an idiot by intentinally not telling them about my ill pension change to missclaim any money from DWP. Also HMRC is fully aware about my pension increase and I am obviously being taxed on it as necessary. As above, I had no idea I need to tell DWP about my ill pension change and would assume that if they have all details from me plus HMRC is aware of it any necessary amendements will be done automaticly as this is one government body. I have looked at some posts on forum and understand now that if private pensions exceeds 85 pounds a week then I will get only 50% of ESA but I am stressed out that apart of money repayment I will be charged a fine or may go to jail for a fraud as they are saying . I am not claiming any other benefits and ESA is my only one. I wish today was Monday as I would like to call DWP straightaway to find out what happens. So I am asking you for some advice as I can't stop thinking about consequences.
    Last edited by Mark4321; 21-10-2017 at 6:46 PM.
Page 4
    • Mark4321
    • By Mark4321 24th Oct 17, 4:57 PM
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    Mark4321
    OK guys let's cool down , we all here to help each other , I hope .
    I had a call from FEPS and : believe or not but they confirmed, that they don't hold any of my forms I sent them and my extra income was not disregarded either so now I have to prove they , not me ,made a mistake. I am really glad I made a scan of any form I was sending to them. So advice to all : MAKE YOUR OWN COPIES . Still have not received any clarification from my insurer so this is the point where I am now.
    Last edited by Mark4321; 24-10-2017 at 5:02 PM.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 24th Oct 17, 5:30 PM
    • 25,371 Posts
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    xylophone
    Post 27

    I have worked for NHS and started with lower tier in 2014. In 2016 because of health deterioration was moved to higher tier what resulted in pension increase. SPPA is running my supperanuation scheme and they are my ill pension provider. I did not have any other additional insurance plan in place .


    Still have not received any clarification from my insurer so this is the point where I am now.
    What insurer?
    • epitome
    • By epitome 24th Oct 17, 7:58 PM
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    epitome
    May be of interest, but it is no more info than we already have, LazyDaisy is not a benefits expert and makes a mistake in post #18 and says "someone more knowlegeable than me comes along" The thread is full of conjecture without any facts, except the fact that some ESA claimants have ill-health pensions that are not disregarded. (whether rightly or wrongly we don't yet know). However there may be some use from that thread...After reading that I would like to know if bspm (user above) was migrated from IB with an ill-health Pension already disregarded? As far as I knew on IB it was any pension would be disregarded in those circumastances not just the ill-health ones.

    OK guys let's cool down , we all here to help each other , I hope .
    I had a call from FEPS and : believe or not but they confirmed, that they don't hold any of my forms I sent them and my extra income was not disregarded either so now I have to prove they , not me ,made a mistake. I am really glad I made a scan of any form I was sending to them. So advice to all : MAKE YOUR OWN COPIES . Still have not received any clarification from my insurer so this is the point where I am now.
    Originally posted by Mark4321
    Thanks for update Mark, you kept copies of your ESA1 ? If so, that was a good idea.

    But having said that, what date did you apply for ESA? was it 2014?
    You should ask them if they have looked in "Fario records" where all the paper records are kept.

    Also when you said this in your OP
    I have informed DWP about this providing them all data they asked in the questionare including amount,my policy number and details of my ill pension provider. I have informed them later twice about my ill pension ( last time in Dec 2015 when I asked DWP for mandatory reconsideration as they placed me in WREG group and I was successful )
    What did you mean, "you informed them twice later" and what did you mean about your Man Recon, why did you mention your pension in your Man Recon?
    Last edited by epitome; 24-10-2017 at 8:57 PM.
    • Mark4321
    • By Mark4321 24th Oct 17, 8:16 PM
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    Mark4321
    Hi , I keep copy of all documents I sent , anywhere they go. DWP asked me to describe my current situation so I did. Thank you all for help.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 24th Oct 17, 9:02 PM
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    epitome
    If you have your ESA1 copied, I don't hink you will have much trouble in getting any OP from the start of your claim to the point of pension increase classed as Official Error.....but...

    You said you informed them twice over, what do you mean? Once was on your Man Recon, If you needed to, you can ask them to confirm what date they received your Man Recon Letter and ask them to look at it, as it says about your pension...You didn't happen to write in your Man Recon that your pension had increased did you?

    What was the other occasion you informed them?
    • epitome
    • By epitome 25th Oct 17, 10:32 PM
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    epitome
    Right, this one is now solved, the answer was there when I looked at DMG before, just a bit further up, which I found today.

    Mark, (if the DWP get this right) It will mean your ESA(C) will reduce to £0.00 but will remain open for NI Credits...when they eventually sort it, and work out wht you owe them and you will have a £50 penalty for not informing them that your pension rose to £450 Gross. What they will probably do is ask you to pay it all back from the start of your claim...but you should challenge that decision and say you did declare the pension on your ESA1 (showing them your copies) so any overpayment from the start of ESA to the date of increase is not your fault.

    Any over payment after they found out you had a pension of £450 should be written off...but they probably stopped your ESA as soon as they found out...so there will be nothing overpaid after they found out anyway.

    You will also have a £50 penalty added to your overpayment to be paid back.

    Out of interest, what date did the Pension increase to £450 from?

    Also....
    You said earlier that you told them twice about your pension...in your Man Recon Letter did you say what amount your pension was i.e. £450 ? Did you ever tell them it had gone up to £450 ?

    Also be prepared if you show them your ESA1 photocopies,,,they are not official stamped photocopies (well I doubt they are, they would have to be stamped by DWP to be official copies) ...for example I could apply for ESA tomorrow send an ESA1,,,,not declare the pension...then 2 years later, I could fill in another ESA1 declaring the pension and then photocpy the new one, and say "this is a photocopy of the one I sent you a 2 years ago" You see what I am saying.... your evidence may not be accepted....but you have the right to an appeal if they do not accept your evidence...and I am only telling you the worst case scenario so you are prepared for it. You should ask them if they have checkedin Fario records for your form and if they have checked all the electronic places where it might be stored as a scanned document.

    Also as I said ask SPPA if it is classed as a Permanent Health Insurance Policy (I doubt it is).


    Here is the guidance on pensions...

    Pension Payments
    44661 Pension payments are periodical payments (see DMG 44663 et seq) paid to or for a person
    1. under a personal pension scheme (see DMG 44665 et seq) or
    2. in connection with the ending of the person’s employment as an earner (see DMG 44689) under
    2.1 an occupational pension scheme (see DMG 44674) or
    2.2 a public service pension scheme (see DMG 44675 et seq)
    3. under an insurance policy providing benefits in connection with physical or mental illness or disability (see DMG 44700).

    44662 Payments as in DMG 44661 2. may be, but are not confined to, pensions that the employer has contributed to. These include
    1. payments made under a scheme arranged by the employer where the money is provided exclusively by the claimant
    2. payments made by the UK or other governments where provision is made for them in law, for example pensions to former Crown employees
    3. pensions from employment overseas (see DMG 44742)
    4. the compensation element of a retired local government officer’s pension
    5. payments under the Civil Service Compensation Scheme (see DMG 44679 et seq)
    6. payments under the Civil Service Pension Scheme





    Public service pension scheme
    44675 A public service pension scheme isan occupational pension scheme that is
    1. established under legislation, by royal prerogative or under a royal charter and
    1.1 all its particulars are set out in the legislation, royal warrant or charter or
    1.2 it cannot come into force or be amended without the government’s approval or
    2. established with the government’s approval or
    3. prescribed by legislation.

    44676 Pension schemes that are also public service pension schemes include pension schemes for
    1. civil servants or
    2. local government employees or
    3. teachers or
    4. the Armed Forces or
    5. police officers.

    44677 If DMs have difficulty in determining whether a pension scheme is a public service pension scheme they should arrange to get
    1. the claimant’s consent to contact the manager of the scheme and
    2. a statement from the manager of the scheme as to whether the pension scheme is a public service pension scheme within the meaning of the relevant law.
    Note: If a pension scheme is not a public service pension scheme it may still fall within the definition of an occupational pension scheme (see DMG 44674).

    44678 Most public service schemes include provision for injury or contracting a disease (for example Police and Fire Service schemes). Such pensions may be paid on a minimum income guarantee basis. This means that the pension tops up existing income to a certain level. The pension rate may therefore be affected by the amount of ESA(Cont) entitlement. In such cases the DM should take into account the gross amount of pension i.e. before any adjustment has been made for ESA(Cont). This ensures that the gross amount of the pension is offset against any ESA(Cont), and the pension provider takes the subsequent balance of any ESA(Cont) payable into account. There is no disadvantage to the claimant, and means that in cases where the amount of pension paid to the claimant is equal to the level of guarantee, the claimant’s total income remains unchanged. The pension provider needs to be informed of the correct amount of ESA(Cont) payable.
    Example
    The amount of pension is £120.00 per week, and the amount of guarantee is £120.00 per week. ESA(Cont) entitlement is £100.15 which is reduced by £17.50 (half the excess over £85) to £82.65. The pension is then paid at £37.35 to bring the guaranteed income back to £120.00.


    Insurance policy providing benefits in connection with physical or mental illness or disability
    44700 A payment under a permanent health insurance policy is a pension payment for the purposes of ESA(Cont). It means any periodical payment
    1. made to a former employee and
    2. which was arranged by an employer under an insurance policy and
    3. which provides benefits to the former employee in connection with physical or mental illness or disability and
    4. is payable on the termination of employment.


    Disregarded payments
    44716 Certain payments may be received by the claimant but do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont)



    Permanent health insurance

    44723 Where the claimant
    1. receives a payment under a permanent health insurance scheme and
    2. had contributed over 50% of the premium

    then the payment is not deducted from ESA(Cont)






    Last edited by epitome; 04-11-2017 at 11:28 AM.
    • Saversue
    • By Saversue 27th Oct 17, 12:48 AM
    • 1,708 Posts
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    Saversue
    Well done on getting such a large ill-health pension. How old are you ?
    I don't understand the 2 stages you are talking about, though, as an ex teacher who was forced to take ill-health retirement at 43. No stages involved, just enhancement up to 7 years, which I was given.

    The only reason, I am aware of, for disregarding your pension; is if you were in receipt of Incapacity Benefit before 6th April 2001 and have continued to receive it, or ESA, from when forced to transfer; without a break, ever since.
    I fall into this category and as a result my teachers pension is disregarded and I get my ESA Support Group paid in full.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 27th Oct 17, 8:00 AM
    • 4,884 Posts
    • 5,217 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    Well done on getting such a large ill-health pension. How old are you ?
    I don't understand the 2 stages you are talking about,
    Originally posted by Saversue
    Well done??? I doubt the OP feels much like the first prize winner in a competition.
    A large increase in pension payment is generally linked with a life limiting condition. My guess would be that a previous diagnosis, which caused the pension to be paid early in the first place, has been revisited and the prognosis is now poorer than before.
    • Saversue
    • By Saversue 27th Oct 17, 1:27 PM
    • 1,708 Posts
    • 23,674 Thanks
    Saversue
    Well done??? I doubt the OP feels much like the first prize winner in a competition.
    A large increase in pension payment is generally linked with a life limiting condition. My guess would be that a previous diagnosis, which caused the pension to be paid early in the first place, has been revisited and the prognosis is now poorer than before.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    It certainly wasn't meant like that! (It's a shame people have to nit-pick) Just that in terrible circumstances the OP has now got what he deserves.
    I was wondering if he has claimed for PIP as this hasn't been mentioned and would give him some additional funds if he unfortunately finds that the ESA is reclaimed.
    • Sweepie3
    • By Sweepie3 4th Nov 17, 10:39 AM
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    Sweepie3
    I don't understand ESA and pension rules
    Hi

    I lost my job in March 2015 due to mental health problems, after 20 years in the NHS. I have received an ill health NHS tier 1 pension since September 2016.
    I received ESA income-related from March 2015 until August 2017- in the support group.
    The first inkling I had of a problem was when my mortgage provider wrote to me to say that my account is in arrears and that DWP have advised them ( not me!) that they are no longer making the mortgage interest payments on my account - as per ESA. I then received a letter regarding my council tax payments saying that I am £400 in arrears and no longer entitled to council tax support - again as per ESA.
    I contacted DWP to query all this and was told that from August of this year, I am no longer entitled to income- related ESA and am now on contribution- based. This effectively amounts to nothing - no payments, no help with mortgage costs, council tax support, prescriptions, etc.
    My weekly pension amount is £197.
    My monthly mortgage payment ( for a small 2 bed terrace house) is now £756 ( previously 456).
    Council tax is now £150 including the sudden arrears ( previously £33).
    I receive child tax credits and child benefit but I am now unable to pay any of my household bills in full.
    I have been applying for jobs ( even though I am still in the ESA support group and have ongoing mental health issues) out of desperation.
    I don't understand what the point of contribution based ESA is as it amounts to sweet nothing in my case- also i thought it was based on the last year of employment's contributions and mine would have been quite high as I was earning £47 k a year.
    Thanks for any advice that you can offer.
    Also I have applied for PIP and the first refusal is currently being reconsidered ( I previously received it from January 2016 to June 2017).
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 4th Nov 17, 11:19 AM
    • 2,563 Posts
    • 2,544 Thanks
    poppy12345
    Hi

    I lost my job in March 2015 due to mental health problems, after 20 years in the NHS. I have received an ill health NHS tier 1 pension since September 2016.
    I received ESA income-related from March 2015 until August 2017- in the support group.
    The first inkling I had of a problem was when my mortgage provider wrote to me to say that my account is in arrears and that DWP have advised them ( not me!) that they are no longer making the mortgage interest payments on my account - as per ESA. I then received a letter regarding my council tax payments saying that I am £400 in arrears and no longer entitled to council tax support - again as per ESA.
    I contacted DWP to query all this and was told that from August of this year, I am no longer entitled to income- related ESA and am now on contribution- based. This effectively amounts to nothing - no payments, no help with mortgage costs, council tax support, prescriptions, etc.
    My weekly pension amount is £197.
    My monthly mortgage payment ( for a small 2 bed terrace house) is now £756 ( previously 456).
    Council tax is now £150 including the sudden arrears ( previously £33).
    I receive child tax credits and child benefit but I am now unable to pay any of my household bills in full.
    I have been applying for jobs ( even though I am still in the ESA support group and have ongoing mental health issues) out of desperation.
    I don't understand what the point of contribution based ESA is as it amounts to sweet nothing in my case- also i thought it was based on the last year of employment's contributions and mine would have been quite high as I was earning £47 k a year.
    Thanks for any advice that you can offer.
    Also I have applied for PIP and the first refusal is currently being reconsidered ( I previously received it from January 2016 to June 2017).
    Originally posted by Sweepie3
    You would be better off starting your own post with this question. Posting it at the end of a long thread it could be missed.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 4th Nov 17, 1:16 PM
    • 3,153 Posts
    • 1,913 Thanks
    epitome
    Hi

    I lost my job in March 2015 due to mental health problems, after 20 years in the NHS. I have received an ill health NHS tier 1 pension since September 2016.
    I received ESA income-related from March 2015 until August 2017- in the support group.
    The first inkling I had of a problem was when my mortgage provider wrote to me to say that my account is in arrears and that DWP have advised them ( not me!) that they are no longer making the mortgage interest payments on my account - as per ESA. I then received a letter regarding my council tax payments saying that I am £400 in arrears and no longer entitled to council tax support - again as per ESA.
    I contacted DWP to query all this and was told that from August of this year, I am no longer entitled to income- related ESA and am now on contribution- based. This effectively amounts to nothing - no payments, no help with mortgage costs, council tax support, prescriptions, etc.
    My weekly pension amount is £197.
    My monthly mortgage payment ( for a small 2 bed terrace house) is now £756 ( previously 456).
    Council tax is now £150 including the sudden arrears ( previously £33).
    I receive child tax credits and child benefit but I am now unable to pay any of my household bills in full.
    I have been applying for jobs ( even though I am still in the ESA support group and have ongoing mental health issues) out of desperation.
    I don't understand what the point of contribution based ESA is as it amounts to sweet nothing in my case- also i thought it was based on the last year of employment's contributions and mine would have been quite high as I was earning £47 k a year.
    Thanks for any advice that you can offer.
    Also I have applied for PIP and the first refusal is currently being reconsidered ( I previously received it from January 2016 to June 2017).
    Originally posted by Sweepie3

    This thread does have a lot of info on ill health pensions. And what we have found out is that they are subject to the normal Pension rules on ESA IR or ESA Conts.

    That is to say:
    * For ESA IR all private pension income (net pension income) is deducted. and it would be deducted from the ESA IR applicable amount...The applicable amount is the ESA IR award that includes any premiums(disability, carer, pensioner) & components (Support Group Component), any money for a partner, any money for a mortgage. From this total, the pension income is deducted.

    * For ESA Conts the gross pension income figure is used, it is averaged to a weekly amount. The first £85 is disregarded, the remaining balance is divided by 2 and then deducted from ESA Conts.

    Your pension amount of £197 per week (you do not say if it is gross or net) I will assume gross.

    Your ESA Conts SG = £109.65
    Less the pension amount: (197-85)/2 = £56
    Total ESA Conts £53.65 per week....(if £197 is a gross figure.)

    If 197 is not the gross figure and the gross is higher, then your ESA Conts will be less than £53.65

    Your income is (assumed to be) £197 + £53.65 = £250 a week, £1086 per month.

    Your mortgage and CT are £906

    Leaving you with £41.50 per week

    You should note that if it was "ESA IR only" the assumed position would be that you had no benefit income, and would be in the red each week by about £10.

    You should ask Shelter helpline for advice on your Council Tax. But make sure you know before calling
    Exactly what your ESA IR applicable amount is
    What your pension 'gross' and 'net' is
    What your ESA Conts is paying you per week.
    Last edited by epitome; 04-11-2017 at 1:23 PM.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 4th Nov 17, 2:01 PM
    • 11,475 Posts
    • 13,369 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    To add to Epitome's post.

    If you are awarded the standard daily living of PIP then you may be entitled to income based ESA again if you are eligible for the Severe Disability Premium (do you live alone other than your dependent children?)

    You have your child tax credits and child benefit as well as the £41.50(ish) per week - how much is that in total?

    You could look into doing Permitted Work (goggle for more information) which would give you some extra income without affecting your ESA. (under 16 hrs at NMW)

    In the mean time, contact your mortgage provider and ask if there is any way you could go interest only/take a payment holiday whilst you are seeking work/awaiting your PIP appeal.
    • Mark4321
    • By Mark4321 8th Feb 18, 12:01 PM
    • 25 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Mark4321
    Hello,
    I have received result of my mandatory reconsideration and DWP decided to stop my ESA due to my extra money I am getting from SPPA. In their notice was no mention about any repayments so I called them and found out that they will not reclaim any money I have received because this was their not mine error. They told me , that although I am not getting any payments they will still contribute my NIN credits. Some of you posted about claiming PiP, could you please advise what would be the procedure to apply for it in my circumstances ? I just want to assess if claiming another benefit is really worth after all these stress I went recently through.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 8th Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • 4,884 Posts
    • 5,217 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    Mark4321, I can't answer your question about PIP but did want to thank you for updating us on the outcome. Most people don't, but that's understandable as the questions are often raised in very stressful circumstances, and the last thing people want to do after event is revisit the situation.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 8th Feb 18, 12:41 PM
    • 11,475 Posts
    • 13,369 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    Hello,
    I have received result of my mandatory reconsideration and DWP decided to stop my ESA due to my extra money I am getting from SPPA. In their notice was no mention about any repayments so I called them and found out that they will not reclaim any money I have received because this was their not mine error. They told me , that although I am not getting any payments they will still contribute my NIN credits. Some of you posted about claiming PiP, could you please advise what would be the procedure to apply for it in my circumstances ? I just want to assess if claiming another benefit is really worth after all these stress I went recently through.
    Originally posted by Mark4321
    PIP is a non means tested benefit so you can certainly look into whether you would be eligible.

    If you go back to post 22 Alice has given some links about PIP.

    Have a read and come back if you need any further help.
    • Mark4321
    • By Mark4321 8th Feb 18, 3:27 PM
    • 25 Posts
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    Mark4321
    I am always trying to post the answer when I got it , so you don't have to thank me for that although I suspect not many people bother to get back to you with final outcome. In relation to PiP I did read the guidelines links provided by Alice but can't find any answer in connection with ESA. I was hoping ,that in case when claimant is already under ESA and in support group the process of PiP will be less complicated due to medical history DWP already has.
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 8th Feb 18, 4:37 PM
    • 2,563 Posts
    • 2,544 Thanks
    poppy12345
    I am always trying to post the answer when I got it , so you don't have to thank me for that although I suspect not many people bother to get back to you with final outcome. In relation to PiP I did read the guidelines links provided by Alice but can't find any answer in connection with ESA. I was hoping ,that in case when claimant is already under ESA and in support group the process of PiP will be less complicated due to medical history DWP already has.
    Originally posted by Mark4321
    Unfortunately not because they are different benefits, people claim PIP and work. ESA is for those with a limited capability to work. If you want to start a claim for PIP then you'll need ring them. They will then send you a form to fill in. Evidence will be needed to support your claim, like ESA. It's rare for them to contact anyone for evidence. Most people have an assessment, so expect one of those as well.
    • Mark4321
    • By Mark4321 8th Feb 18, 5:18 PM
    • 25 Posts
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    Mark4321
    I understand an assessment means I will have to go to see a consultant ? Well, the same they were doing when I have applied for ESA so DWP is aware my illness is incurable, what means no improvements since the first assessment.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 8th Feb 18, 5:25 PM
    • 2,021 Posts
    • 2,339 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I I was hoping ,that in case when claimant is already under ESA and in support group the process of PiP will be less complicated due to medical history DWP already has.
    Originally posted by Mark4321
    No, PIP is a different benefit to ESA with different criteria.

    There is some limited crossover - if your are in the SG because of the mobilising descriptor, then it is worth mentioning this on the PIP form for the moving around activity BUT the descriptors are different.

    It is best to supply current medical evidence, showing how you fit the PIP descriptors. You certainly cannot assume the DWP will go back to your ESA medical history when assessing a PIP claim. It's a different benefit and different claim dates.
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