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  • FIRST POST
    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 11th Oct 17, 8:34 PM
    • 32Posts
    • 14Thanks
    ed wood
    Indigo penalty notice train station
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 8:34 PM
    Indigo penalty notice train station 11th Oct 17 at 8:34 PM
    Hi All,
    My Mum received a penalty notice today whilst parked in Crawley Train station. Quite simply she couldn't buy a ticket because none of the ticket machines would accept her money and she doesn't own a mobile to pay on the phone. She left a note on her windscreen saying she was unable to buy a ticket as the machines weren't working. I think she honestly thought the scum who give these notices out would have an ounce of compassion and empathy and not ticket her!
    Anyhow, first question. Does the fact she left this note muddy the waters in anyway? I'm wondering if this could be seen as an admission of guilt?
    Secondly I'm aware that the whole byelaw issue comes into it as it was a train station. I have read through the lewes indigo thread and will use this letter as my template for the Popla appeal. Due to the Byelaws/train station issue do I stick with the standard first appeal template for BPA members as found on the newbies page or attempt anything different?
    Cheers, Ed
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 17, 8:49 PM
    • 18,334 Posts
    • 23,225 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 8:49 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 8:49 PM
    forget what the drivers actions were, wait for the NTK then use the BPA template , appealing as keeper

    bearing in mind they wont offer popla any longer, see this

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5718256
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 11th Oct 17, 10:06 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    ed wood
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:06 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:06 PM
    Thanks Redx.
    So, use the BPA template when the NTK comes (I assume I don't bother if one is never received?) and then forget about it.
    No POPLA appeal and I assume "escalating to a manager" would be futile so would it be a case of sitting back and waiting to see whether she gets a summons to a magistarates court?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 17, 10:10 PM
    • 18,334 Posts
    • 23,225 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:10 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:10 PM
    yes, except they have no idea who was driving

    the MAGS COURT times out after 6 months
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 11th Oct 17, 10:30 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    ed wood
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:30 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:30 PM
    yes, except they have no idea who was driving

    the MAGS COURT times out after 6 months
    Originally posted by Redx
    OK, excellent. I'll update if anything happens.
    I know my Mum will panic about this (don't worry I wont let her pay), just so I can re-assure her, is the worst case scenario that it goes to court, I lose and pay the 100 penalty?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    • 18,334 Posts
    • 23,225 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    no idea about MAGS court because it never happens !!!

    I doubt that the TOC even know about it let alone have any system to enforce the bylaws
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 11th Oct 17, 11:27 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:27 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:27 PM
    OK, excellent. I'll update if anything happens.
    I know my Mum will panic about this (don't worry I wont let her pay), just so I can re-assure her, is the worst case scenario that it goes to court, I lose and pay the 100 penalty?
    Originally posted by ed wood
    NO , because the TOC did not ask for 100
    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 18th Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    ed wood
    • #8
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    • #8
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    Never received a NTK but received an "overdue penalty notice to owner" today. Lots of talk of Byelaw 14 and threats to clamp in future.
    Do I still use the BPA template at this point or something different?
    Thanks Ed.

    P.S The BPA template is this one right......

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than 250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Nov 17, 11:50 AM
    • 17,993 Posts
    • 28,489 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:50 AM
    • #9
    • 18th Nov 17, 11:50 AM
    If that!!!8217;s the first postal communication, then treat it as the NtK. Reply with the template as you!!!8217;ve shown above.

    You know that Indigo have some kind of agreement with the BPA not to issue POPLA codes for railway parking tickets. So I!!!8217;d add a few lines to the appeal specifically requiring a POPLA code in the event of a rejection - such as:
    Please note that in the event of you refusing to uphold this appeal, I require a POPLA verification code to enable me to access Alternative Dispute Resolution for an independent adjudication of my case - as is my legal right.

    Should you refuse to provide me access to POPLA via this code, I will require reasons why you are denying me my legal right. Be aware that I will raise your refusal with the DVLA, the DCLG, the DfT and my local MP.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th Nov 17, 12:20 PM
    • 9,497 Posts
    • 9,254 Thanks
    The Deep
    I know my Mum will panic

    There are so many reasons why she has no reason to panic

    only the TOC can take your Mum to court if the driver is unknown

    They need to know driver or owner

    Your mum will not tell them

    It times out in 6 months

    Fines go to HMG not TOC

    TOCs rarely take people to court, only for serious stukk like trespassing on the line, forging a season ticket, vandalising railway property, etc. Indigo tickets are not worth the bother.
    Last edited by The Deep; 18-11-2017 at 12:22 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Nov 17, 1:09 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,943 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Never received a NTK but received an "overdue penalty notice to owner" today. Lots of talk of Byelaw 14 and threats to clamp in future.
    Do I still use the BPA template at this point or something different?
    Thanks Ed.

    P.S The BPA template is this one right......

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than 250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Originally posted by ed wood
    You won't be able to fit all that in to Indigo's 'appeals page' as we've been told by posters that the box is small, so I forget the template and go with Umkomaas' words mainly:

    The driver informs me that the machines were all out of order. The driver carries no phone and will not be identified, but any contract was void for impossibility and/or frustrated.

    Please note that in the event of you refusing to uphold this appeal, I require a POPLA verification code to enable me to access Alternative Dispute Resolution for an independent adjudication of my case - as is my legal right. Should you refuse to provide me access to POPLA via this code, I will require reasons why you are denying me my legal right. Be aware that I will raise your refusal with the DVLA, the DCLG, the DfT and my local MP.
    And please see the other Indigo railway threads about how to fill in the boxes asking who was driving (obviously you don't put her name).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 19th Nov 17, 10:32 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    ed wood
    Thanks for the wonderful advice everyone.
    Just sent off the appeal, in the name box just used keeper of vehicle.
    Will update when I hear something.
    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 16th Dec 17, 10:39 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    ed wood
    Hi All,
    Never received any reply to the appeal apart from a few requests for the name of the driver of the vehicle by email. They claimed these were needed for data protection! I made it very clear that they had the name of the keeper of the vehicle and thats all they were getting.
    Today my Mum received a letter from a debt collection agency, ZZPS, should anything be done about this or should it be ignored?
    Thanks, Ed
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 16th Dec 17, 10:47 AM
    • 7,543 Posts
    • 10,033 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Hi All,
    Never received any reply to the appeal apart from a few requests for the name of the driver of the vehicle by email. They claimed these were needed for data protection! I made it very clear that they had the name of the keeper of the vehicle and thats all they were getting.
    Today my Mum received a letter from a debt collection agency, ZZPS, should anything be done about this or should it be ignored?
    Thanks, Ed
    Originally posted by ed wood
    The infamous ZZPS

    Just drongo chancers to ignore

    POWERLESS TIMEWASTERS

    Tell your mum to take the advice of the media
    NEVER CONTACT SCAMMERS
    Last edited by beamerguy; 16-12-2017 at 10:50 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • ed wood
    • By ed wood 1st Jan 18, 10:55 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    ed wood
    Received another letter from ZZps on Saturday:

    "The penalty is an offer for you to make payment of an alternative charge under railway byelaws. If the the penalty is not paid, then our client is entitled to commence a private criminal prosecution against you for your breach of railway byelaw 14. This could result in you being fined up to 1000 (level 3 on the standard scale, set out in section 37 of the criminal justice act 1982).
    By Breaching railway byelaw 14, you have committed an offence. The penalty has been issued under section 219 of the transport act 2000 as amended under the railway act 2005
    our next action is to pass this account to the law firm QDR solicitors ltd. We would prefer to get to the bottom of this with you, without the need to use lawyers. However, we are duty bound to advise you that if this does get passed to solicitors, the balance owing will be increased by a further 36.
    The criminal prosecution process is not simple; if you need debt advice, places where this can be sought are detailed on the reverse of this letter"

    What an extraordinarily passive aggressive threatening letter!
    Is there any point replying to this letter and if so what should I write?

    Thanks people and happy new year.
    Edward
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 1st Jan 18, 11:00 AM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    ZZPS client is indigo , indigo cannot start a court case in magistrates court , only the TOC can do that

    the TOC do not use QDR solisitors

    await letter from TOC

    there is a slight problem , indigo are not allowed to pass any information gathered from the DVLA to the TOC
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 1st Jan 18, 11:12 AM
    • 2,751 Posts
    • 3,413 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Indeed, what a load of rubbish from zzps there.

    If the driver wasn!!!8217;t identified then nomoffence can be committed by the keeper. That!!!8217;s just an out and out lie.
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 1st Jan 18, 11:17 AM
    • 3,308 Posts
    • 4,829 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    If the the penalty is not paid, then our client is entitled to commence a private criminal prosecution against you for your breach of railway byelaw 14.
    ...
    By Breaching railway byelaw 14, you have committed an offence.
    Originally posted by ed wood
    What's the point of a criminal prosecution in a court of law. Sounds like they have decided the offence has been committed, which is not in their gift to decide. They would appear to have prejudiced any potential court case here.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 1st Jan 18, 11:19 AM
    • 7,543 Posts
    • 10,033 Thanks
    beamerguy
    You can always spot a scammer when they talk
    rubbish and say things like .....

    "We would prefer to get to the bottom of this with you, without the need to use lawyers"

    Sort of thing a child would say ..... that's the ZZPS way

    Thought that the pervy thing was a BPA staff privilege

    Contact Trading Standards with a complaint about the
    ZZPS letter as it is menacing and they are attempting
    to extort money from you

    Take notice of pappa-golf
    Last edited by beamerguy; 01-01-2018 at 11:34 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 1st Jan 18, 11:37 AM
    • 9,497 Posts
    • 9,254 Thanks
    The Deep
    our client is entitled to commence a private criminal prosecution against you for your breach of railway byelaw 14.

    They seem to be digging themselves into a hole here. A private criminal prosecution, even if it was allowed, would not come cheap, especially if OP hired a QC and the PPC lost.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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