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  • FIRST POST
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 6th Oct 17, 11:55 AM
    • 35Posts
    • 12Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Claim Form - UK Car Park Management
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:55 AM
    Claim Form - UK Car Park Management 6th Oct 17 at 11:55 AM
    Hello,
    A couple of weeks ago on the day I was meant to be going on holiday I received a letter before claim from Gladstones. Obviously there was no time to respond as I was catching a flight, so had to respond when I got back. I sent a robust response to the LBC but it was too late, the 14 days was up and they didn't mess around with the claim form!

    I've frantically read the newbies thread again and it says "small claim? Start a new thread please"
    I've registered with MCOL so I now have until the end of he month to sort this out but I'd rather nip it in the bud.

    The parking charge in question was for "breaching the terms of parking" on the land of a residential site.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you
Page 3
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Apr 18, 2:55 PM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Youd have to ask permission, as this is a reserved activity. SO you need to AS A MATTER OF URGENCY write to the court.
    Dont delay on this. Do this now.
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 5th Apr 18, 4:22 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Ask permission for what? Sorry if I missed something
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Apr 18, 4:39 PM
    • 9,268 Posts
    • 9,487 Thanks
    KeithP
    Permission to represent the defendant without her being present.
    .
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 5th Apr 18, 5:15 PM
    • 3,284 Posts
    • 5,516 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Permission to represent the defendant without her being present.
    Basically if you roll up to court attempting to represent someone, and you are not a solicitor, you'll be told to go away. The case will then be heard on papers only. So your choices are

    1. Ask the court, given the circumstance, could you represent.
    2. Request papers only and forget about #1
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 5th Apr 18, 5:47 PM
    • 1,177 Posts
    • 2,234 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Permission to represent the defendant without her being present.
    I don't see this one being granted. I suspect restoring it as a paper hearing is best you can hope for, but good luck. I hope I'm wrong.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Apr 18, 10:18 PM
    • 61,597 Posts
    • 74,508 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Youd have to ask permission, as this is a reserved activity. SO you need to AS A MATTER OF URGENCY write to the court.
    Dont delay on this. Do this now.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Hang on, he doesn't.

    Basically if you roll up to court attempting to represent someone,
    He isn't.

    Magnum0121, please let this thread go quiet on the subject of who is having to attend court.

    I have printed off the full copy of the lease and the relevant case transcripts as mentioned.
    Unfortunately cannot find the Excel v Mr B one!
    Which one is that?

    Which transcripts are you using?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-04-2018 at 10:22 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 6th Apr 18, 9:29 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    These are the transcripts:


    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/208537969/JOPSON_V_HOMEGUARD_2906J_Approved.pdf?mobile_site= true

    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/206910945/High_Wycombe_Three_Approved_Judgment.pdf?mobile_si te=true

    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/209202605/UKPC_v_Masterson_B6QZ4H3R.pdf?mobile_site=true
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 6th Apr 18, 10:54 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Could someone please help with a witness statement?
    I've had a search and can't find one on the forums that fits into residential matters
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Apr 18, 11:44 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    A WS is a series of facts. Starting with who the RK of the vehicle is is the usual point, and just go forwards in time from the parking event to now.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Apr 18, 7:20 PM
    • 61,597 Posts
    • 74,508 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Although this one (below first link) is part of defence wording, these points about needing a consensus, and the Landlord & Tenant Act, could be squeezed into a WS about a residential car park by saying no such consultation took place, etc.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74067081#post74067081

    and here's a WS about a residents car park:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73427485#post73427485

    HTH
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 9th Apr 18, 11:10 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    First WS draft.
    I'm drawing a blank here as to what else to mention without turning the WS into another defence.


    IN THE COUNTY COURT - Claim No.:

    Between

    CPM UK LTD (Claimant)

    -and-

    ************ (Defendant)
    ____________________________
    WITNESS STATEMENT
    __________________________

    I, ****************** of **************, *********, ***********, **** *** am the defendant in this case.

    1. The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge there are true to the best of my information and belief

    2. I authorise ********* ******** to represent on my behalf in my absence

    3. I am not liable to the Claimant for the sum claimed, or any amount at all and this is my Witness Statement in support of my defence as already filed.

    4. I assert that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle in question in this case. I was not the driver of the car at the time of the alleged contravention.

    5. The claimant has no knowledge of who was driving the car on this or any occasion, but I can confirm that I was not the driver on this occasion.

    6. This Claimant should never have issued to a registered keeper, a document described as a !!!8216;liability notice!!!8217; (LN) because they were not availing themselves of any right to !!!8216;keeper liability!!!8217;. This right is offered under statute to parking operators and landholders, ONLY if they comply with Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, which Excel admit they do not. Under the applicable BPA Code of Practice at the time, a LN was a document only for cases where an operator could hold a keeper liable under the POFA. This LN was contrary to DVLA rules which prohibit misleading keepers as to whether they are the liable party.

    7. The Claimant seeks to apportion blame to a keeper for not responding to their letters and for not naming the driver.

    8. It is noted that there is no breach of contract as the signage is forbidding.

    9. My lease does not forbid parking. A copy of the lease has been filed with this Witness Statement and mentioned in my defence.
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 9th Apr 18, 3:49 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Also, can anyone show me a copy of the POFA 2012? The government legislation website isn't working.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/paragraph/4/enacted
    • Castle
    • By Castle 9th Apr 18, 4:14 PM
    • 1,900 Posts
    • 2,577 Thanks
    Castle
    Also, can anyone show me a copy of the POFA 2012? The government legislation website isn't working.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/paragraph/4/enacted
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 9th Apr 18, 4:20 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    That's the same link that I posted that doesn't work:

    This page contains the following errors:

    error on line 5 at column 242: EntityRef: expecting ';'
    Below is a rendering of the page up to the first error.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    • 61,597 Posts
    • 74,508 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    CPM UK LTD (Claimant)

    Is that how their name is given on the claim form? I thought it would be UK Car Park Management Ltd as per their company registration:

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07383860

    You do not need to say this but I know who you mean. I would remove this:
    2. I authorise ********* ******** to represent on my behalf in my absence
    To the other regulars, it is OK, it's not a lay rep with no RoA. Magnum0121, ask that person for comments on your WS, off forum and do not mention them here.

    This is a bit of a mess even having tidied up the Smart Punctuation error you are getting:
    6. This Claimant should never have issued to a registered keeper, a document described as a 'liability notice' (LN) because they were not availing themselves of any right to 'keeper liability'. This right is offered under statute to parking operators and landholders, ONLY if they comply with Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, which Excel admit they do not. Under the applicable BPA Code of Practice at the time, a LN was a document only for cases where an operator could hold a keeper liable under the POFA. This LN was contrary to DVLA rules which prohibit misleading keepers as to whether they are the liable party.
    For example why does it say 'Excel'? Wrong PPC! And why are you talking about a LN when UKCPM probably did comply and are not ''admitting they do not'' rely on the POFA. the opposite is likely to be true, with UKCPM, they no doubt are relying on the POFA.

    Remove that.

    Why did you not include any of the linked words I showed you, about the ?Landlord & Tenant Act

    You have made no attempt to show ANY evidence at all with this WS, eeek! What about the primacy of contract that the Defendant is relying upon? The proof of that?

    You need to ask the person who will be in court about this WS and evidence, or you could ruin the case.

    If you are getting assistance I would take it off forum now and let this thread go quiet.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-04-2018 at 4:28 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 9th Apr 18, 5:01 PM
    • 1,378 Posts
    • 2,820 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Also, can anyone show me a copy of the POFA 2012? The government legislation website isn't working.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dxxrwu5thz6wdo/TAB%203%20Exhibit%20IL1%20PoFA%202012%20Sch%204.pd f?dl=0
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 29th Apr 18, 3:20 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Update on this case - case dismissed in favour of the defendant.

    I'll give a brief rundown of events.
    The defendant decided to attend court with a legally qualified representative.

    The claimant informed the defendant a week prior to the hearing that they would not be sending someone to represent themselves and wished for judge to view their case on paper alone. Despite this, they decided to send someone last minute from Elms Legal. This was either a tactic to make the defendant not bother to attend to catch them out, or poor organisation.

    The claimants witness statement was rubbish, it was just a copy and pasted template probably used in all residential cases and didn't address the issue of the lease.

    The DJ was only concerned with the lease, which grants the defendant permission to park. The claimants representative mentioned clause 21 of schedule 3 which said that Managing Agents could introduce regulations for the benefit of the efficient running of the estate. This was not included in the bundle that Gladstones threw together, so the Judge was not interested.
    On this point, the defendants representative mentioned that any variation of the lease has to be approved by 75% of the leaseholders, persuant to s37 of the Landlord and Tenant act 1987. Again, there was no evidence of this in the claimants bundle.

    Unfortunately the defendant did not take proof of earnings. If she did then she could've claimed for loss of earnings which would have been the maximum of 95 plus the 3 bus fare. The claimant has been ordered to pay the 3 bus fare.
    Let this be a lesson to anyone attending court, take a pay slip with you just in case.

    The whole thing was over within 10 minutes.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Apr 18, 6:02 PM
    • 61,597 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Glad to see this update and well done to you and bargepole!

    He did report this to some of us already. I was hoping you'd update the thread. Bargepole summarised it thus:

    Case No. D4GF99EJ - UKCPM -v- Miss x, before District Judge Dodsworth at Romford Court.

    Mrs Cross (Elms Legal) for Claimant.I prepared the WS, highlighting the key arguments of primacy of contract of the lease, and appending judgments from Jopson, Noor, and Parkinson, as well as forbidding signage as per Bull and Masterson.

    The Claimant's WS, signed by Sophie Fenn, was the usual Gladstones template, and didn't even address the issue of the lease.

    The DJ's opening remarks were ''Mrs Cross, you may have some difficulty with this. The Defendant has a lease which grants her a right to park. I will hear any submission you wish to make on whether that term has been varied''.

    Mrs Cross took the Judge to clause 21 of Schedule 3, which said that the Managing Agents could introduce regulations for the benefit of the efficient running of the estate. But when asked if she had a copy of such regulations, she did not. As she said afterwards, you're only as good as your bundle.
    I understand a transcript is being obtained? Will be useful for your other case and for other residential cases if the Parking Prankster is happy to host it in his case law pages, once you are happy to release it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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