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  • FIRST POST
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 4th Oct 17, 10:25 PM
    • 40Posts
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    Joe whenjung
    Indigo railway parking notice
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 17, 10:25 PM
    Indigo railway parking notice 4th Oct 17 at 10:25 PM
    Hi all,

    First time poster, and after reading many threads I could do with some guidance (or help in finding the right thread as Im sure this has been answered somewhere already).

    The driver has received a Penalty Notice from Indigo for parking in Grange Park station. They did have a valid ticket which has time of purchase and the car registration on it. Unfortunately it had fallen out of sight.

    Should I appeal immediately and ask for clemency? Your guidance would be much appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Joe
    Last edited by Joe whenjung; 04-10-2017 at 10:59 PM.
Page 3
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Jan 18, 10:56 AM
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    pappa golf
    also add the fact that indigo , haveing got your info from the DVLA are not allowed to go spouting it to the TOC
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 12:04 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Hmmm, and this is interesting. From Bylaw 14 S25
    Identification of authorised persons

    An authorised person who is exercising any power conferred on him by any of
    these Byelaws shall produce a form of identification when requested to do so
    and such identification shall state the name of his employer and shall contain
    a means of identifying the authorised person.

    !!!8220;authorised person!!!8221; means:
    (i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
    (a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
    (b) any other person authorised by an Operator,

    I think I know what my next letter to Indigo is going to be requesting.

    Out of interest, where does the 6 month deadline under bylaws come from? I cant see it in there.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 3:12 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Out of interest, where does the 6 month deadline under bylaws come from? I cant see it in there.
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-07.pdf
    (5) Where an offence can be tried only in a magistrates!!!8217; court, then unless other legislation
    otherwise provides!!!8212;
    (a) a prosecutor must serve an information on the court officer or present it to the court; or
    (b) an authorised prosecutor must issue a written charge,
    not more than 6 months after the offence alleged.
    Glad you got your head around the fact that railway land is 'non-relevant land'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Sorry to repeat this questiuon - I think it got lost earlier in the thread.

    Byelaw 14 (4)(i):
    The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance
    used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be
    liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area

    As I read this, IF a Bylaw case gets to court, lack of Keeper liability would then no longer be a defense?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Jan 18, 8:50 PM
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    pappa golf
    IF , and thats a big if

    indigo , , was that indigo Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd (formerly Meteor Parking Ltd) or Indigo Park Services UK Ltd (formerly Vinci Park Services UK Ltd)

    check the contract out carefully , you may find that a company that does not hold the contract with the train company ,is actually pestering you for money
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 9:03 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Papa, I believe that may well be the case. I am dealing with "Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd". I dont know who holds the contract with the TOC. Surely that is a confidential commercial document, not one in private domain?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jan 18, 9:10 PM
    • 17,976 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    Papa, I believe that may well be the case. I am dealing with "Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd". I dont know who holds the contract with the TOC. Surely that is a confidential commercial document, not one in private domain?
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    It doesn!!!8217;t stop you from asking Indigo for it. Why not, in parallel, ask the TOC for a copy of their agreement with Indigo (in whichever guise) or, if they can!!!8217;t/not prepared to produce that, ask them to confirm exactly who (name of company) they have a contract with to manage the particular car park.

    You have to take every opportunity to cleave this wide open to find any weak point.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Jan 18, 9:19 PM
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    • 23,187 Thanks
    Redx
    and because railway land is NOT RELEVANT LAND , keeper liability does not apply unless a keeper admitted liability (becasue POFA2012 does not apply on land covered using bylaws)

    the TOC should take the driver (if known) or the OWNER to magistrates court within 6 months , or it times out

    yes its complicated , but INDIGO are using smoke and mirrors to dupe unwary motorists into paying a charge that they cannot deem to be valid

    its been a problem for a long time and POFA2012 had no bearing or input , the BPA and DVLA and POPLA have all washed their hands of it becasue the potato is so hot

    and INDIGO cannot pass the details they obtained to the TOC due to the DPA and also the KADOE contract with the dvla

    the TOC could instigate proceeedings but if they won the penalty fee would go into the court coffers and neither the TOC nor INDIGO would get a penny

    and as mentioned above, you look for every chink in their armour including the wrong name on any documents

    after 6 months the TOC cannot use the bylaws (not they they will do so becasue we never see threads where it has progressed to a penalty charge being held in a MAGS court)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Jan 18, 9:21 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
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    pappa golf
    It doesn’t stop you from asking Indigo for it. Why not, in parallel, ask the TOC for a copy of their agreement with Indigo (in whichever guise) or, if they can’t/not prepared to produce that, ask them to confirm exactly who (name of company) they have a contract with to manage the particular car park.

    You have to take every opportunity to cleave this wide open to find any weak point.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    however , the OP is not dealing with the TOC at this point and indigo in whatever guise cannot hand data to the TOC

    there was a FOI with the correct answer however I cannot locate it at the moment
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jan 18, 9:31 PM
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    • 28,448 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    after 6 months the TOC cannot use the bylaws (not they they will do so becasue we never see threads where it has progressed to a penalty charge being held in a MAGS court)
    Nor will they. They!!!8217;ve contracted with a private parking company to do any of their dirty work (like the BPA and DVLA, the TOC themselves have done a Pontius Pilate on this, as too hot to handle). Why have a dog and bark yourself springs instantly to mind!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jan 18, 9:41 PM
    • 17,976 Posts
    • 28,448 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    there was a FOI with the correct answer however I cannot locate it at the moment
    This one, PG?

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/discussions_with_british_parking_2#outgoing-666106
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 9:46 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    and because railway land is NOT RELEVANT LAND , keeper liability does not apply unless a keeper admitted liability (becasue POFA2012 does not apply on land covered using bylaws)
    Originally posted by Redx
    Under Byelaw 14 doesn't it already state that the keeper may be liable though?

    I have no doubt I can spin this out over 6 months (almost half way there already), and even IF it landed in court, unlit signs in the dark, a ticket paid for, unclear instructions etc would be solid defense.

    I just want to understand this as well as I possibly can. Based on what I've learned here already, I've helped 2 other use MSE forum as a resource to beat tickets.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 6th Jan 18, 9:57 PM
    • 3,381 Posts
    • 4,495 Thanks
    waamo
    The wording says owner not keeper. The owner, keeper and registered keeper are 3 different things and may not be the same person. In fact they can be 3 different people.
    This space for hire.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 6th Jan 18, 10:03 PM
    • 1,763 Posts
    • 2,383 Thanks
    Castle
    there was a FOI with the correct answer however I cannot locate it at the moment
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    Maybe this one?:-
    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/320696/response/791828/attach/2/FOIR5226%20R%20Bostock.pdf
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 6th Jan 18, 10:19 PM
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    pappa golf
    meteor and vinci park are two seperate companies

    indigo Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd (formerly Meteor Parking Ltd)

    Indigo Park Services UK Ltd (formerly Vinci Park Services UK Ltd)

    both have seperate company numbers at companies house , but often one claims to have rights to ticket cars on car park where the contract is with the other
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 6th Jan 18, 10:24 PM
    • 116 Posts
    • 245 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    Under Byelaw 14 doesn't it already state that the keeper may be liable though?

    I just want to understand this as well as I possibly can.
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    You might find post 56 on this Pepipoo thread helpful:
    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116115&st=40
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 10:25 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    On that basis, Im looking to include the para below. Should I make a stronger suggestion that they are not an 'authorised person'?

    11. Under Railway Byelaws defines an !!!8220;authorised person!!!8221; as:
    "(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
    (a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
    (b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
    (ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;
    "

    Can you please provide me with evidence of the signed contract that designates !!!8220;Indigo Park Solutions UK Limited!!!8221; as an !!!8220;authorised person!!!8221;.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Jan 18, 11:10 PM
    • 18,308 Posts
    • 23,187 Thanks
    Redx
    Under Byelaw 14 doesn't it already state that the keeper may be liable though?
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    no , it is definitely the OWNER

    the owner and registered keeper and keeper and driver may all be the same entity , BUT could be 4 different entities

    when I had a motability vehicle some years ago, MOTABILITY was the owner , they were also the RK, I was the keeper ( I did not have a V5C as I was effectively the lessee) and my wife tended to be the driver

    if the vehicle in your possession was a hire car , it might be a bank or hire purchase loan company that is the legal owner , the hire co may be the RK, , the keeper is the lessee/hirer , and the driver could have been somebody else entirely (me for example)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 7th Jan 18, 8:44 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Hi guys,

    I was wondering if someone a bit more experienced could cast their eyes over this for me. Second appeal in response to NtK. Its a rejigged version of the blue text appeal. My main questions are:
    - Is point 10 un-necessary?
    - Should I use point 12 now, or hold this back until my next email to them?



    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. XXXXXXXX

    1. I write in response to your letter dated 14 December 2017 (Your Letter).

    2. I challenge this 'PCN' as KEEPER of the car. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

    3. The area of the alleged parking incident is not relevant land as defined under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, therefore the KEEPER cannot be held liable.

    4. Your Letter makes it clear that if my appeal is rejected I will be provided with details of how to refer the matter to an Independent Appeals Service (“POPLA”), along with a unique reference number. To quote Your Letter:
    “If your appeal is rejected, you will be provided with details of how to refer the matter to an Independent Appeals Service (“POPLA”), along with a unique reference number”

    5. Should my appeal be unsuccessful, I will be requiring such details and unique reference number as specified in Your Letter.

    6. To help resolve this matter I can advise that on the date of the alleged parking incident, the DRIVER purchased and displayed a parking ticket, of which a copy is attached. For the avoidance of doubt, you will see that the correct amount was paid, and the correct vehicle details were entered.

    7. I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers. The signage is not lit, and as the attached photographs demonstrate, no reasonable user of the car park would be expected to be able to read it.

    8. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    9. You have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

    10. Additionally, please note that as you have obtained my details from the DVLA under the KADOE contract, you may not pass them to any third party for any reason.

    11. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    12. Under Railway Byelaws defines an “authorised person” as:
    (i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
    (a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
    (b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
    (ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;
    Can you please provide me with evidence of the signed contract that designates “Indigo Park Solutions UK Limited” as an “authorised person”.

    13. You must either offer me a POPLA code as offered in Your Letter, or cancel the charge.




    Yours faithfully,
    Name
    Address
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jan 18, 11:43 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    - Is point 10 unnecessary?
    No, IMHO.


    - Should I use point 12 now, or hold this back until my next email to them?
    I am of the view that we should not hand PPCs the words they need to get things right. And I think that tells them what to do in order to show themselves as authorised, so I wouldn't quote it at all.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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