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  • FIRST POST
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 23rd Sep 17, 1:52 AM
    • 92Posts
    • 44Thanks
    RM_2007
    At Small Claims stage - PCM and Gladstones
    • #1
    • 23rd Sep 17, 1:52 AM
    At Small Claims stage - PCM and Gladstones 23rd Sep 17 at 1:52 AM
    Hi All,


    Cross posting from the pepipoo forum to get as much help as possible.


    Long story short - Got a NTK from PCM for parking on double yellow lines on a private estate. Went through the motions with Gladstones and cort papers were recieved (dated 06/09).


    Followed the Newbie sticky and acknoledged the AOS and hav started to draft the defence.


    The Pepipoo thread is here
    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=112701&st=60&gopid=1318034&#en try1318034


    I can cross post all the deatils if it is easier. I've found it a aunting task to compile the defence but have been helped by all the advice on the sticky - Thanks Coupo-Mad and all the others who have contributed.


    Main arguments are:


    prohibitive 'forbidding parking' signs
    signage being inadequate
    No Standing


    I've also thrown in not POFA compliant and unreasonable and vexatious claim. I still need to go through it and possible remove anything that is considered to be an irrelevant defence, so in the interest of time, Putting the current draft up for review.


    Your help and guidence would be very appriciated.








Page 3
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,412 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    At this point you do not send the court anything other than the WS and other evidence you are relying upon.

    Ha eyou read post 2? Tells you that you do not send costs or skelly until about 3 days before the hearing date, as part of the point of the skelly is to rebut their arguments, which you normally dont see until after youve sent your WS in.
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 8th Mar 18, 12:57 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Thanks nosferatu1001.

    Ok so WS and the exhibits only.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 8th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    • 1,766 Posts
    • 2,390 Thanks
    Castle
    Thanks nosferatu1001.

    Ok so WS and the exhibits only.

    when do you send the Skeleton?
    Originally posted by RM_2007
    See post 41 above!
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 8th Mar 18, 1:01 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Sorry - submitted before editing

    I've paginated the WS and all the exhibits (in pencil) - have I made a mistake there too? Started with the WS and continued numbering through to the end of the exhibits.
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 8th Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Gladstones copy posted - standard first class with proof of postage.

    Printer ran out of ink so had to go to the local photocopy shop - £20 for two copies of each the pages in the WS and exhibits

    I copied the video and photos to a dvd for Gadstones, do I have to use the same format for the court or can I send a USB stick to the court?

    Will hand deliver the WS and exhibits to the court tomorrow morning in a lever arch file - with the exhibits tabulated - please correct me if this is not the right thing to do?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 18, 8:53 PM
    • 58,388 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    do I have to use the same format for the court or can I send a USB stick to the court?
    I would take both formats with you and ask the court clerk which format is acceptable.

    Make sure the claim number and date of trial is written clearly on the USB stick or DVD, and that it is securely padded within the lever arch file and attached to the ring/lever, maybe in a sealed bubble wrap envelope with holes at one end to attach it to the ring binder.

    While you are at the court in the morning (and bear in mind they might close the desk/postbox for paperwork at noon on a Friday!) why not ask the court clerk whether you can bring a laptop with you to show it on the day and will the Judge allow that, in their experience?

    Will hand deliver the WS and exhibits to the court tomorrow morning in a lever arch file - with the exhibits tabulated - please correct me if this is not the right thing to do?
    Yes, with a simple covering contents page, and claim number on everything.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 9th Mar 18, 11:02 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Thanks Coupon-mad.

    Dropped off the folder with the WS and exhibits to the CC. Unfortunately they don't let anyone in if you don't have a trial on the day - no post desk etc. Security took the file from me, no reciept - stated that's what I had to do - I cant go in to speak to the clerk

    The security guard went to ask the clerk about dvd/usb but they weren't at their desk so ended up putting both in a padded envelope(hole punched into the folder with the other exhibits).

    Bit concrned about not getting a reciept...so will call the court to ask if they'vve gt the docs.
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 9th Mar 18, 6:13 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Emailed Gladstones in addition to posting yesterday. Sent exhibits in 3 parts - looks like their email server blocked all 3 with reason "this message has been blocked by the mail server".

    Not sure if its the size - around 20MB each or the fact that its pdfs zipped up.

    email addresses, if other are interested:

    litigation@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk
    administration@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk
    enquiries@gladstonessolicitors.co.uk

    Also, if its correct, the NDR message says they are using an unlicensed anti-spam product that should only be used for non commercial use unless licenced! Bit Naughty!
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 16th Mar 18, 11:25 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    latest update..

    I rang the court to confirm that they had received my WS, which they confirmed was received on the 9th. Court date is 23rd March so 9th was before the 14 day deadline by my calculations.

    I asked about the claimants WS and was informed that it was received on the 13th which is past the 14 day deadline.

    Looking at their WS, its dated the 13th as well.

    Do I need to bring it to the judges attention by mentioning it in my Skeleton?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 18, 12:39 AM
    • 58,388 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes indeedy!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 18th Mar 18, 5:27 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Gladstones WS and exhibits that they sent to me included the following:
    • WS from an employee of the claimant company
    • An "agreement" authorizing the claimant to manage parking
    • A copy of their sign
    • A site plan
    • the NTK's
    • Photos (although the ones of the signs are nowhere near where the vehicle was photographed)

    Here is a copy of the agreement - I've removed names and signature - any advice would be appreciated.



    Not sure how important it is but couldn't see PCM (UK) on the list of BPA members.

    I'll upload the points in their WS with my rebuttals - there isn't any issues with uploading contents of their WS is there?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Mar 18, 5:51 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    PCM are in the IPC, have been for a few years.

    there isn't any issues with uploading contents of their WS is there?
    No, that's OK but best shown as a shared link to Dropbox.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 18th Mar 18, 10:44 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Thanks Coupon-Mad. I only mentioned it as the "agreement" above mentions BPA and not IPC.

    Right, not used dropbox before so downloaded etc.

    Gladstones WS linked here

    They also send a printed copy of the signs, uploaded -
    linked here

    I need to get a better understanding of the signs in this case and fully understand why its forbidding and cant form a contract - any pointers appreciated.
    Last edited by RM_2007; 20-03-2018 at 1:25 AM.
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 20th Mar 18, 1:19 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Draft schedule of costs - what is the maximum hours you can claim in time spent preparing for the case?

    DEFENDANT'S SCHEDULE OF COSTS

    Ordinary Costs


    Loss of earnings/leave, incurred through attendance at Court 23/03/2018 £95.00

    Return mileage from home address to Court (7 miles x £0.45) £3.15

    Parking near Court £0.00

    Sub-total £98.15 ======

    Further costs for Claimant's unreasonable behaviour, pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14(2)(g)

    Research, preparation and drafting of documents (4 hours at Litigant in Person rate of £19 per hour) £76.00

    Stationery, printing, photocopying and postage: £20.00

    Sub-total £96.00 ======

    £ 194.15 TOTAL COSTS CLAIMED
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Mar 18, 3:34 PM
    • 58,388 Posts
    • 71,916 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Thanks Coupon-Mad. I only mentioned it as the "agreement" above mentions BPA and not IPC.

    Right, not used dropbox before so downloaded etc.

    Gladstones WS linked here

    They also send a printed copy of the signs, uploaded -
    linked here

    I need to get a better understanding of the signs in this case and fully understand why its forbidding and cant form a contract - any pointers appreciated.
    Originally posted by RM_2007
    Bumping these hyperlinks for others to click on, I have no time today.

    what is the maximum hours you can claim in time spent preparing for the case?
    No maximum, but under ten might be viewed more favourably.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 20th Mar 18, 9:57 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Hi All, looking at the court order, I cant see a date by which the skeleton argument needs to be submitted by - Court date is friday 23rd.

    Is it possible to email? or post/hand deliver only?

    To allow a few days, does it have to be in tomorrow (by hand) or if it can be emailed, is Thursday morning too late?

    I'll take my cost schedule with me on the day (can send it in with the Skeleton as well if that is better).
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 20th Mar 18, 10:01 PM
    • 7,669 Posts
    • 7,377 Thanks
    KeithP
    I would seriously try very hard to deliver both those items to the court tomorrow.

    And of course, to the claimant.
    .
    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 20th Mar 18, 10:40 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    I would seriously try very hard to deliver both those items to the court tomorrow.

    And of course, to the claimant.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Will aim to do that.

    Just amending the Skeleton now.

    As Galdstones submitted their WS late (after the 14 days as directed by the court papers) can I ask for the claim to be struct out? - Just trying to draft that paragraph.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Mar 18, 10:52 PM
    • 58,388 Posts
    • 71,916 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You can ask for the Judge to disallow it, as a firm of solicitors know the rules & deadlines.

    And you need to be ready (on the day) to object to the late WS, and the non-appearance of the witness to be questioned about their statement. Many Judges look very dimly upon such conduct by a claimant and their solicitors and - thereafter - the Judge might be on your side.

    Are you au fait with the tips for the day:

    - getting there half an hour early (partly to calm down and not rush, not get stressed)

    - have your costs schedule with you and copies of everything, plus proof of emailing Gladstones

    - finding out from the Usher, who has turned up for the other side.

    - Not accepting ANY additional documents foisted upon you (say 'no, see you in the court room in front of the Judge where you can explain why you have tried to add evidence not properly filed')

    - asking them for their name and who they work for, before you get in there (it will not be Gladstones. And if it's not the Claimant PPC, and is perhaps a hired rep from ELMS LEGAL or similar, you can hand the usher a 'Preliminary Matters' set of papers including the Law Gazette and case law that argues that the rep lacks Rights of Audience and should not be heard, and the Claimant should be treated as though no-one has turned up...

    Search the forum for 'Gazette' and change the default to SHOW POSTS not threads.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RM_2007
    • By RM_2007 20th Mar 18, 10:56 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 44 Thanks
    RM_2007
    Thanks Coupon-Mad.

    Will search for that.

    Thank you for the tips - very helpful as usual.

    Will re-read all the advise before Friday - getting a bit nervous as the date approaches but trying to as much prep as possible in between the day job and family.

    have your costs schedule with you and copies of everything, plus proof of emailing Gladstones
    Will print out copies of the delivery rejection messages
    Last edited by RM_2007; 20-03-2018 at 10:59 PM.
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