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  • FIRST POST
    • Karsiyaka Boy
    • By Karsiyaka Boy 21st Sep 17, 4:44 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 7Thanks
    Karsiyaka Boy
    Paid Ticket but still got parking charge notice
    • #1
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:44 PM
    Paid Ticket but still got parking charge notice 21st Sep 17 at 4:44 PM
    Can anyone advise on what my next step should be.

    I parked my car in a private car park in Brighton and bought a pay and display ticket for 5 which I placed on my dashboard in the correct manner. What I didn't know is that when I shut my car door, the air pressure change must have flipped the ticket over and it was face down.

    When I returned to my car, within the time I had paid for, I found a plastic bag stuck on the drivers window of my car stating that a parking charge notice would be sent to the registered keeper of the car. There was no indication on the bag that it had actually been issued to my car or what possible offence may have been committed.
    I initially thought that someone was playing a trick on me and tried unsuccessfully to call the parking firm. I recovered my ticket from the dashboard and put it in my wallet (just in case) I later managed to get through to the parking company who confirmed that my car had been parked with the ticket face down and thus I would receive a ticket but not to worry as I could then appeal the process.

    I consequently received a parking charge notice through the post and entered into the appeals process advising them that I had indeed paid and displayed as required but unfortunately the ticket must have been turned over.

    I sent them a scanned copy of my ticket and presumed that would be the end of the matter. They duly rejected my appeal and thus I appealed to POPLA who are the independent body and was able to point out that, in the evidence provided by the parking company they had provided a photo of the face down ticket in my car on the dashboard . This photo showed the serial number on the back of the ticket which matches the one on the front of the ticket and thus I was able to prove that a ticket had been bought and was valid at the time and was visible although face down. I had acted in good faith and I was confident that my appeal would be upheld.

    How wrong I was. My appeal to POPLA has been rejected! There was no mention of the fact that I had bought a ticket and not gone over the allotted time but they seem to be saying that the notices around the car park state that the ticket must be displayed correctly and thus, the ticket was issued correctly and I should pay the charge.

    I feel extremely angry that I am now expected to pay 100 because my ticket was not able to be read, even though I acted in good faith and that I have demonstrated that I purchased the ticket as required.

    Is there anything I can do??

    I am considering letting them take me to court but am worried that I may end up paying up to 410 in court costs plus the 100 charge should it turn out that this unfair ticket has to be paid.
    Last edited by Karsiyaka Boy; 21-09-2017 at 11:21 PM.
Page 2
    • trisontana
    • By trisontana 22nd Sep 17, 9:02 AM
    • 8,962 Posts
    • 13,779 Thanks
    trisontana
    One suggestion to avoid "fluttering ticket" syndrome is to invest in a small plastic clip which you attach to your windscreen with its sticky pad. You can pick them up on eBay for less than a fiver. I've had one for a couple of years now and it's still firmly in place.
    What part of "A whop bop-a-lu a whop bam boo" don't you understand?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 22nd Sep 17, 11:58 AM
    • 2,139 Posts
    • 3,592 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    OP, I have just read this thread. Please let me introduce myself, and please indulge my little rant. I am a regular contributor to this forum. I have seen off many tickets for posters. I come on here during my working day when I have a spare few minutes, and sometimes in the evening if I am not otherwise engaged. I think I am generally accepted as a valuable contributor as I am a solicitor. I work full time and I am a single parent of 4 with no input from the other parent. I don't say these things to extract any sympathy, but so that you understand how valuable my time is to me.


    When I defended my first ticket, I used to post walls of text and, like you, I was asked to separate posts into paragraphs to make my posts easier for people to read. I did what I was asked. The request is not made with the intention of belittling you or criticising your grammar, it's a genuine request aimed at making it easier to help you. Sometimes some of us can be a bit blunt - we just lose a bit of patience every now and again. So I understand that you took offence, but please don't because offence was not intended.


    It's just not on, however, to criticise the information and assistance given in the newbies threads. You may well have a point, but there are volunteers on here who have spent many, many hours drafting the newbies information/threads and continue to add to them and amend them. And all the advice and resources are given for free. I haven't read them myself for a long, long time, but I know they are regularly updated. It is difficult to make such a large amount of information more user friendly, particularly because this is all done by volunteers in their spare time.


    I will post some suggestions for you in a minute, I just wanted to get this off my chest.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 22nd Sep 17, 12:08 PM
    • 2,139 Posts
    • 3,592 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I later managed to get through to the parking company who confirmed that my car had been parked with the ticket face down and thus I would receive a ticket but not to worry as I could then appeal the process.


    I think this is quite important. Rely on it as an acceptance from the PPC that the ticket had been wrongly given.


    This photo showed the serial number on the back of the ticket which matches the one on the front of the ticket and thus I was able to prove that a ticket had been bought and was valid at the time and was visible although face down. I had acted in good faith


    Again, rely on this. I would say that the reason a serial number is printed on the rear of the ticket is precisely because of the risk that the ticket will flip over, unknown to the driver. The flimsy ticket without a sticky backing is clearly unfit for purpose and the term of the contract that it must be validly displayed (ie face up) has been made impossible to perform (and in council ticket scenarios this argument is accepted as valid), plus you acted in good faith as you say, plus the PPC has suffered no loss.


    There are quite a few "fluttering ticket" threads on here, do a forum search. I've just commented on one (you can search my username for recent posts).


    If you fight and lose you will NOT end up paying 400+ in court costs. The small claims limits costs to 50 unless there has been unreasonable behaviour by the losing party. What will be claimed will be the initial charge (the undiscounted one) plus they tend to add on 50-odd in undefined "extra charges" plus a small amount of interest, the 25 issue fee, 25 hearing fee and the 50 solicitors fees. The global amount usually claimed is in the region of 250. Your worst case scenario, provide you behave reasonably and comply with the court orders, is that you will lose and have to pay 250. But you have valid defences and if you use this forum correctly and do all your homework you should win.


    It does require a lot of work, the more research you do the greater your chances of winning, and it can become quite addictive. Read the Parking Prankster's blog as well as other threads and the newbies info. Keep yourself abreast of developments and when and if the time comes we will help you draft your defence and evidence - the more you help yourself by showing willing to do your own homework, the more you will find that the regular contributors with the greatest knowledge will help you back.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Sep 17, 12:38 PM
    • 7,681 Posts
    • 7,393 Thanks
    KeithP
    OP, you won't like this, as I too am going to suggest you edit your original post.

    It is unwise to give any clues as to who was driving.

    E.g. the start of your second sentence should be "The driver parked his car in a private car park in Brighton...".
    The next sentence should start "What he didn't know is that when he shut his car door...".
    Adjust the rest of your post accordingly.

    Also, is your forum username your real name?
    If so, you would be wise to get MSE to change it to something more anonymous.
    To do that, hit the 'report' button on your original post and make your request to the forum team.

    Forgive me for mentioning these things but the PPCs do trawl forums looking for ways to trip people up.
    Last edited by KeithP; 22-09-2017 at 1:09 PM.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 22nd Sep 17, 1:40 PM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,413 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Given the OP has appealed twice, I would suggest that ship has long sailed.
    • Karsiyaka Boy
    • By Karsiyaka Boy 22nd Sep 17, 5:25 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Karsiyaka Boy
    [QUOTE=fisherjim;73159701]Andrew, what hassle are you expecting apart from a few silly letters did you not look at this:/QUOTE]

    Yes, I did see that. However, I wasn't sure whether it is up to date.( I hope that it is)
    • Karsiyaka Boy
    • By Karsiyaka Boy 22nd Sep 17, 5:48 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Karsiyaka Boy
    Loads of Children. Thanks for your post. I did actually edit my post yesterday and hope that it is now considered acceptable.
    I wasn't trying to belittle the advice given in the Newbies posting, I was merely trying to say that I had looked at the post but found it very difficult to wade through. It does use a lot of acronyms which mean nothing to the uninitiated.
    I appreciate your time is given fro free and am of course most grateful.
    I will have a look at the other post that you have recently helped with on a similar subject. I am pleased to hear that the 400 figure is incorrect. Although an additional 250 is still quite a lot to pay on top of the 100.
    Your comment that it is a lot of work to get this sorted does somewhat make me wonder if I should perhaps just take it on the chin as I also have a lot of claims on my time as my wife is seriously ill and needs my full time support as well as a couple of days each week away from home on the babysitting front.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Sep 17, 6:08 PM
    • 18,334 Posts
    • 23,225 Thanks
    Redx
    the acronyms are explained in post #9 (yes it needs crabman to tidy it up but his pm box is full)

    there are several reasons why walls of text are frowned upon

    1) because some people use mobile smart phones to read the posts

    2) because some people use Tablets and Ipads to read the posts

    3) because it can be difficult to keep track of the sentences on a laptop

    4) because some forum users (like myself) have disabilities including dyslexia and word blindness and splitting it into easy to read paragraphs means people are more likely to read and respond

    5) its easier to quote sections when they are in paragraphs in any replies

    6) it shows respect for other forum users who are expected to read , digest and reply (free of charge I might add)

    yes that NEWBIES thread needs tidying and no coupon-mad is not perfect (although we may think so) and yes it may be better if it was structured differently

    so nobody here would object to anyone that wishes to put a few days effort into helping make suggestions on rewriting it

    if the NEWBIES thread was absent then I believe that 99% of people would find it even more difficult to get the advice they need so at the moment its the best free advice in the whole of the UK, contained in about 5 posts , which are separated according to the procedures and the advice being given

    at no time were my comments personal, EVERYONE that creates walls of text (even solicitors , lol) are told to edit their posts , remove certain details from those posts and generally to learn to write in a manner that wont hinder themselves in court (yes it has happened and does still happen - walls have ears and the enemy IS listening)

    my take on it is that if you cannot stand the mild criticism so far, you wont like the major criticism given when your posts are about the court case , where a judge is going to read your writings and statements

    parking companies and their legal representatives are shysters and bullies and that is why we give our advice and time free of charge , but only to their victims and only to those who will accept all that is offered , including criticism

    ps:- I can assure you that this is the first of many , because these PPC companies are infesting too many of the places we visit , including supermarkets , hospitals, retail parks , doctors and vet surgeries , health clinics , major attractions , airports , railway stations , tram stations and ports etc

    so I would suggest you and your family acquaint yourselves with the advice and be careful when you park on private property from now on , studying the signage very , very carefully and following the onsite rules to the letter
    Last edited by Redx; 22-09-2017 at 6:26 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Sep 17, 6:19 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,936 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The acronyms used to be explained in a higher post but some aggressive saboteur wrecked the NEWBIES thread a couple of months ago, such that posts were lost and had to be re-arranged and reinserted wherever I could.

    Idiots - small minded sad gits, sabotaging the NEWBIES thread. It may or may not have been a BPA or IPC member who is upset at the success of this forum.

    The BMPA advice is up to date, and some of us here do know who keeps it on track (not me, but I'm a founder member of the BMPA and in touch with the person who does maintain the data & advice there).

    Seriously, you don't need to worry.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 22-09-2017 at 6:22 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Karsiyaka Boy
    • By Karsiyaka Boy 22nd Sep 17, 6:28 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Karsiyaka Boy
    Thank you RedX for your posting. I think that we just got off on the wrong foot and perhaps I reacted a bit strong to your initial post(s) I am not normally given to over reaction but I guess that I was just so flipping annoyed about my appeal being rejected. Please accept my apologies if I caused offence.

    I am not too worried about court appearances as I have made numerous court appearances in a previous life (never as a defendant )

    However, I have just had a look through another posting with regard to a fluttering ticket and am concerned about the amount of time that I may have to invest in defending a 100 ticket. Is there some form of template that can be used should I ever have cause to respond to a court case?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Sep 17, 6:43 PM
    • 18,334 Posts
    • 23,225 Thanks
    Redx
    its all changing on 01 oct 2017 so even is there were any templates they would be out of date and they need rewriting (as discussed in other recent threads on here and on pepipoo)

    each court case is bespoke anyway, so any general templates may not be good enough , although any reaction letters like a defence can use previous cases as a basis for your own unique defence and witness statements etc

    so no , not really as each case could be unique and usually is

    post #2 of that NEWBIES sticky thread is up to date and updated regularly, with examples of defences and witness statements and links to suitable threads from this year (usually as anything older may be out of date)

    perhaps read the lamilad threads about his court cases, plus anything posted by johnnersh , bargepole and loadsofchildren123
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Sep 17, 10:25 AM
    • 2,139 Posts
    • 3,592 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I meant about 250 in full, not 250 on top of the original charge.

    It does take considerable time and effort to deal properly with a claim. So I can see why some just pay up. At some stages I definitely felt like that with the pcn I defended. But paying up when you have a good defence feeds the industry and encourages the PPCs immoral and unlawful conduct so we will always encourage you to defend.

    If you search the forum for fluttering tickets you will find other draft defences which will save you time. And the parking prankster blog.

    Is your username your real name? If yes you ought to change it as per a previous post.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Sep 17, 10:29 AM
    • 2,139 Posts
    • 3,592 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    And provided you put in some effort in doing your own first drafts the regulars on here will help you considerably. We are always more inclined to help more where some effort has been put in, you will get a lot of input, encouragement and advice.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 26th Sep 17, 3:47 PM
    • 2,139 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5618644&page=2
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 12th Jan 18, 5:49 AM
    • 575 Posts
    • 678 Thanks
    claxtome
    Just interested has there been any update with your flipped ticket case?
    (Over 3 months since your last post)
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