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  • FIRST POST
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 19th Sep 17, 8:53 PM
    • 23Posts
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    stickitupyourjumper
    National Parking Enforcement ( NPE ) £60(£100) for 4 minutes! The battle begins
    • #1
    • 19th Sep 17, 8:53 PM
    National Parking Enforcement ( NPE ) £60(£100) for 4 minutes! The battle begins 19th Sep 17 at 8:53 PM
    Its a story as old as time. Let's say I was driving along, minding my own business in an unfamiliar part of town, feeling rough as hell. I had a stomach bug and was really ill, but had struggled to work. Suddenly I felt the overwhelming urge to vomit but luckily, I had just passed a supermarket 'extra' with three deserted parking spaces. I quickly whipped my car in and genuinely did not see any parking restriction signs. I dashed to the supermarket toilets and heaved my guts up. I staggered back to my car (still surrounded by empty spaces) and drove home for some chicken soup and bed.

    5 days later, I received a PCN from NPE in the post. They want £60(£100)! On a document that has the quality I can only describe as being 'knocked up' on Windows 95 by a Nigerian scammer, it clearly displays two pictures, one of my licence plate and one of my car in three abandoned spaces. Clearly printed, it states that I was parked for 4 minutes. I mean 4 minutes! And they want £60. Apparently the location was a 'XXXX House (side road), XXXX Permit Holder Area'...private property I think.

    I am new to all of this...and I have done some reading on this forum...I am no slouch. My (rightful and honest) refusal to engage with TV licencing over the last year has prepared me well for this fight. Basically, I do not want to pay this ridiculous charge. I have read the promising information suggesting that NPE don't really take people to court (or at least they haven't for the last couple of years) and I want to at least make my appeal (as they will suspend all increases in the fee until this is dealt with). I am sure that they will refuse the appeal though.

    I am a newbie and I do suffer from anxiety, but I really hope that you guys could offer me some words of advice and encouragement when I need it. The PCN was only sent yesterday, so I have time on my side. So first question, the letter says that they are IPC accredited, so tomorrow I will submit the following from an alias email (is this correct?):



    Dear National Parking Enforcement Ltd.

    Re PCN number: XXXX

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are they the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    My name and address (with registered keeper only written next to it)




    Whats happens then? What can I expect and what is my next move?

    Thank you for your sterling work guys! The advice you provide is just brilliant. I will promise to keep everyone updated as it progresses.
    Last edited by stickitupyourjumper; 19-09-2017 at 9:05 PM.
Page 3
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 6th Jan 19, 9:40 PM
    • 23 Posts
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    stickitupyourjumper
    If you do, and I recognise what you say about various branches and disciplines, I rather suspect you are much closer to legal advice than posting on a car parking charges site
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thank you, but sadly I am not. I am a civil servant working in criminal justice. I don't have that kind of access or know those sorts of people.

    Any legal 'adviser' we've seen here in bygone threads has each disappeared, and the best you can generally hope for is unqualified people throwing in their own two-penny worth of opinion.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Eurrghhh. Way to make my stomach turn. This is a big step down from 99% cases being won and it leaves me thinking that maybe I should have just taken the £60 initial fine...or that I should cut my losses and just pay the £160 now.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jan 19, 9:48 PM
    • 21,327 Posts
    • 33,600 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Eurrghhh. Way to make my stomach turn. This is a big step down from 99% cases being won and it leaves me thinking that maybe I should have just taken the £60 initial fine...or that I should cut my losses and just pay the £160 now.
    Originally posted by stickitupyourjumper
    People will help where they can, no one is totally abandoned (well, not deliberately, but there is a need to recognise the relentless pressure the forum is under), but I think that there is a need to be realistic and expectations are not overly raised.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 6th Jan 19, 10:01 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stickitupyourjumper
    People will help where they can, no one is totally abandoned (well, not deliberately, but there is a need to recognise the relentless pressure the forum is under), but I think that there is a need to be realistic and expectations are not overly raised.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Ok thanks man. I honeslty wouldn't mind going to court. From what I have read...I wouldn't stand to lose much more than the £160 demanded anyway, so I guess I have nothing to lose. Off the top of my head, my arguments are going to be that the signage was not sufficiently visable on entering the car park/space (which is 100% true) and the disproportionate fines (£15-£25 per minute...particularly with the photos provided showing no other cars...and many spaces). My core argument will rest on the driver reading the signage in that time and deciding not to enter into the contract, removing themselves from the site as per grace period.

    I get what you are saying with the forum being under pressure and it would be better for me to work on some draft letters and free post them back here for critic (if that is ok???) before sending.

    As always cheers for the help and support.
    Last edited by stickitupyourjumper; 06-01-2019 at 10:05 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Jan 19, 10:26 PM
    • 21,327 Posts
    • 33,600 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    My core argument will rest on the driver reading the signage in that time and deciding not to enter into the contract, removing themselves from the site as per grace period.
    That has to be a potentially very strong point - the signage being the purported contract between driver and PPC. Plus, given the very short time on site, the grace periods come into play, and neither ATA's Codes of Practice can possibly argue that 4 minutes is too long.

    and the disproportionate fines (£15-£25 per minute...particularly with the photos provided showing no other cars...and many spaces).
    Leave that one well alone as it drags in ParkingEye v Beavis, and unless you can work your way through The Supreme Court's judgment, and be able to expertly and articulately argue your way around the various issues between penalty clauses being engaged or disengaged, don't go there.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 7th Jan 19, 8:55 PM
    • 23 Posts
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    stickitupyourjumper
    So how is this as a letter for the landowner (some care housing group):


    "To Whom it May Concern,

    As a former carer for xxx and a current civil servant, I share many of the values held by the [CARE GROUP NAME], namely a passion and drive to assist and serve those most at need the community. It is for this reason that I am so disheartened and disappointed that on xxx, I was issues a parking charge notice by post from National Parking Enforcement Ltd for £100.00 (PCN: xxx) on your behalf at the premises.

    A vehicle (of which I am the registered keeper) stopped momentarily on a side road at xxx, following which the driver exited the car to read the relevant restricted parking signs. After 3 minutes and 27 seconds, the driver heeded the information, re-entered the vehicle and left the property. Despite engagement by myself, NPE Ltd refuse to abandon the charge, have escalated it to £160.00, have passed my personal information to third parties without consent, including their solicitors (Gladstones), who have now issued me a 'Letter Before Claim' (ref. xxx). This is despite my case representing a clear instance of the driver correctly acting within the 'grace period' of article 15.1 of the International Parking Community's code of practise (of which NPE Ltd claims to be an accredited member), namely that:

    Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.

    Prior to the incident, I was aware of the [CARE GROUP NAME] and the positive impact being made at [LOCATION] through my prior involvement in care work. To my dismay, I have discovered instances similar to my own reported in the local press (see article from LOCAL PAPER xxx). I fear that my own experience may not be an isolated one and I am shocked and saddened that you appear to tacitly support the charges levied and the wrongful actions of NPE Ltd in my case and others.

    It is therefore with great regret that, should this case progress to a claim, I will be writing to the Care Quality Commission, the [LOCAL PAPER], xxx (MP) and Green Party Councillor xxx (who has recently taken a well publicised interest in the predatory activities of NPE Ltd in the area) to relay my concerns and outrage reference the case and the actions taken by NPE Ltd on behalf of the [CARE GROUP NAME].

    I remain hopeful and optimistic the issue can be resolved amicably and I would welcome any intervention or advice that you may be able to provide in the interim. I have no intention of pursing the matter further should all claims be dropped by all involved parties.

    At the very least, I remain extremely grateful for your valuable time and I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

    Thank you."
    Last edited by stickitupyourjumper; 07-01-2019 at 8:59 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Jan 19, 9:29 PM
    • 21,327 Posts
    • 33,600 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    A bit too long in my view. Cut out some of the sugary bits about your values, occupation and the like, they detract from the sharp message you need to drive home. Other opinions might also be shared.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Jan 19, 9:41 PM
    • 65,749 Posts
    • 78,276 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Eurrghhh. Way to make my stomach turn.

    This is a big step down from 99% cases being won and it leaves me thinking that maybe I should have just taken the £60 initial fine...or that I should cut my losses and just pay the £160 now.
    Originally posted by stickitupyourjumper
    Nope, we are here, some of us just took a break or were too busy over Xmas. Nothing has changed!

    I have no legal training but happy to comment on defences and assist, and yes 99% of people still win here. NPE are likely to be fairly easy to beat and your case shows you certainly have defence grounds for such a predatory PCN, and they have never incurred £60 costs so that gets kicked out anyway, if you play it right throughout.

    so I need to do a letter to NPE for SAR (although they have already furnished me with much of the information suggested...I guess that another request wouldn't hurt)
    Yes. The idea is to interrupt the robo-claim flow from their point of view, and to buy time to lobby the retail Management and say you and your family will boycott the place.

    NPE are notorious with the local Councillors and the press:

    https://norwich.greenparty.org.uk/news/2016/02/01/parking-scam-a-letter-to-the-government/

    https://www.change.org/p/bellgold-properties-ltd-safeguard-earlham-house-shops-say-no-to-npe-s-heavy-handed-parking-enforcement

    https://www.edp24.co.uk/motoring/petition-demands-removal-of-cctv-cameras-in-earlham-house-shopping-centre-1-4593021

    ...so I bet your MP has heard of them and will likely assist in a complaint to the landowner for you, to lend more weight, while the SAR takes its time.





    P.S. when looking for those links I found this new one to turn a few stomachs:

    https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/norwich-dad-praises-common-sense-as-parking-firm-u-turns-on-100-fine-1-4923090

    Hmmmm...

    And a silly, uninformed woman who actually paid NPE:

    https://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/news/mother-parking-charges-norwich-260-1-5840883
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 12th Jan 19, 7:14 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stickitupyourjumper
    Cheers for the input guys. I have acted on your advice and I think that I am ready to go. I cannot find an email address for the property owner, so I am going to send a letter signed for.

    Please let me know if there are any other tweeks I need to do...

    [ LETTER TO PROPERTY OWNER ]

    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I am disheartened and disappointed to report that on XXXX, I was issues a parking charge notice by post from National Parking Enforcement Ltd for £100.00 (PCN: XXXX) on behalf of XXXX at XXXX.

    A vehicle (of which I am the registered keeper) stopped momentarily on a side road at the address, following which the driver exited the car and read the relevant restricted parking signs. The driver heeded the information, re-entered the vehicle and left the property, a sequence of events that took 3 minutes.

    Despite engagement by myself, NPE refuse to abandon the charge levied, have escalated the charge to £160.00 and have passed my personal information to third parties despite explicit requests not to do so. This includes to their solicitors (Gladstones), who have now issued me a 'Letter Before Claim' (ref. XXXX). NPE have take this action on your behalf, despite the case representing a clear instance of the driver correctly acting within the 'grace period' of article 15.1 of the International Parking Community's 'code of practise' (of which NPE claims to be an accredited member), namely that:

    'Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.'

    Prior to the incident, I was not aware of PROPERTY OWNER. To my dismay, I have since discovered similar cases to my own reported in the local press (see article from the LOCAL PAPER 18/07/2013 WEBSITE HYPER LINK). I fear that my own experience may not be an isolated one and I am shocked and saddened that you appear to tacitly support the wrongful actions of NPE and the unjust charges levied in my case and others.

    It is therefore with great regret that, should this case progress to a claim, I will be writing to the LOCAL PAPER , XXXX (MP) and Party Councillor XXXX (who has recently taken a well publicised interest in the predatory activities of NPE in the area) to relay my concerns and outrage reference the case and the actions taken by NPE on behalf of the XXXX. Myself, my family and my friends also intend to boycott the nearby XXXX shopping centre and to contact individual traders located there, to notify them of the boycott. I will also initiate civil action to recover damages reference the sharing of my personal data without consent.

    I remain hopeful and optimistic that the situation does not progress to this stage and that it can be resolved amicably. I would welcome any intervention or advice that you may be able to provide in the interim. I have no intention of pursing the matter further should all charges and claims be dropped by yourselves, NPE and Gladstones Solicitors.

    At the very least, I remain extremely grateful for your valuable time and I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

    Thank you.

    Kind Regards,


    [ LETTER TO NPE, SAR ]

    Dear Sir or Madam,

    Subject access request - Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR)

    ADDRESS

    Reference: PNC XXXX

    Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law relating to myself:

    1. ALL photos taken reference my case. (On furnishing these, please confirm in writing that the photos provided constitutes ALL photos held by yourselves reference my case).
    2. ALL video footage taken reference my case. (On furnishing this, please confirm in writing that the video footage provided constitutes ALL video footage held by yourselves reference my case).
    3. A close up of all of the signs, on the day in question.
    4. Evidence that you have paid a debt collector.
    5. Evidence that you have sought and received my personal information from the DVLA.
    6. All letters and emails, sent and received, reference my case, including any appeal correspondence.
    7. All data held reference the case and a full copy of the PCN (On furnishing this, please confirm in writing that it constitutes ALL data held by yourselves reference my case).
    8. A list of all PCNs you consider are outstanding against me. (Please note that any claim must be for all PCNs in one claim, not several separate claims).

    Please ensure that the information is sent to me by email to XXXX and by post to the aforementioned address.

    If you need any more data from me to confirm my identity please let me know as soon as possible. Please note that I should NOT have to provide intrusive and excessive identification such as a passport or driving licence to obtain this. That I have been sent a Parking Charge Notification and a Letter Before Claim, to my address, demonstrates that you already hold sufficient data to identify me. It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for data within one calendar month.

    If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your Data Protection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissionerís Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

    Yours faithfully


    [ LETTER TO GLADSTONES ]

    ADDRESS

    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I am writing to confirm that the above is my 'address for service' as the registered keeper referenced in the 'Letter Before Claim' dated XXX, XXXX.

    I have sent your client (National Parking Enforcement Ltd.) a 'Subject Access Request' and therefore require restriction of data processing. As a result the case should be put 'on hold'.

    Yours Faithfully,
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jan 19, 7:27 PM
    • 65,749 Posts
    • 78,276 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You are very polite, but I like those letters.

    I would be a bit more forceful to Gs to try to stop their tedious letter back:

    I have sent your client (National Parking Enforcement Ltd.) a 'Subject Access Request' and therefore require restriction of data processing. As a result the case should be put 'on hold'.

    Kindly spare me your template letter that refuses to restrict data processing, pretending that time is somehow 'of the essence' in a robo-claim that can perfectly easily wait 30 days for SAR purposes. Your conduct in replying thus is shameful, so spare me that one.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 12th Jan 19, 8:00 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stickitupyourjumper
    You are very polite, but I like those letters.

    I would be a bit more forceful to Gs to try to stop their tedious letter back:
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Nice. I will incorporate it into my letter and thank you for the compliment. My tactic was to avoid being too confrontational, to the property owners in particular. The easiest outcome for me would be for them to intervene and get the whole thing dropped. 'You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar' and all that. Figures that they are more likely to help if I am not overly confrontational and aggressive. That would only make them defensive. I was keen not to give threats, rather just politely present them with the concequences of what will happen.

    All of that said, I fully expect it to go to court. From what I gather, the property owners have maintained ownership of a number of carparks in the area, soley for the purposes of extracting money via parking charges. Shameful and already well documented in the local press and posted in on this thread. I am ready for court though. As stated, I wouldn't be losing much more than already demanded and it would actually be an interesting learning experience and useful, should I ever need to be involved in small claims, or other court proceedings in future (not that I plan to!)

    Again thank you for your help. I will post back when I get responses.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Jan 19, 8:18 PM
    • 21,327 Posts
    • 33,600 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I would welcome any intervention or advice that you may be able to provide in the interim
    I'd take out 'or advice', as it opens the door for them to say, 'Please take it up with the parking company ........'.

    Just leave them with an expectation that they, the landowner, should intervene (with direct action).
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 12th Jan 19, 10:31 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stickitupyourjumper
    I'd take out 'or advice', as it opens the door for them to say, 'Please take it up with the parking company ........'.

    Just leave them with an expectation that they, the landowner, should intervene (with direct action).
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Excellent stuff. Done. I will send via signed for on Monday. Thank you for your help.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Jan 19, 10:37 PM
    • 12,109 Posts
    • 12,849 Thanks
    KeithP
    I will send via signed for on Monday.
    Originally posted by stickitupyourjumper
    When sending stuff to either a PPC or their solicitor, never use any service that requires a signature.

    All that does is allow the intended recipient to refuse to sign and then all you have is proof of non-delivery. Not quite what you want.

    Send it using standard First Class post getting a free Certificate of Posting from the Post Office counter.
    It is deemed delivered two working days later.
    .
    • stickitupyourjumper
    • By stickitupyourjumper 12th Jan 19, 10:42 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    stickitupyourjumper
    When sending stuff to either a PPC or their solicitor, never use any service that requires a signature.

    All that does is allow the intended recipient to refuse to sign and then all you have is proof of non-delivery. Not quite what you want.

    Send it using standard First Class post getting a free Certificate of Posting from the Post Office counter.
    It is deemed delivered two working days later.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Wow. Excellent. Thank you.
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