Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 15th Sep 17, 2:41 PM
    • 51Posts
    • 16Thanks
    meagainin
    ES Parking Enforcment Ltd Ticket face down charge notice
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 17, 2:41 PM
    ES Parking Enforcment Ltd Ticket face down charge notice 15th Sep 17 at 2:41 PM
    The driver use a car park where you have to input your car reg to get a ticket which you then display in your window.

    I've recently received a charge notice because the a valid pay and display ticket was not displayed..
    EDIT Photo's shown when I was trying to appeal the decision show a number of tickets on my dashboard, most the right way up with one flipped, which isn't the ticket in question. Looks like the ticket for the day had been dislodged from the dashboard at some point.

    The letter states that the reason for issue is: Ticket face down -Did not pay and display a pre paid voucher or place it on view.

    The driver has still got the pay and display ticket which shows they'd paid the valid fee for the time the charge notice relates to. I've never had a parking charge notice before and I'm not sure what to do next. Am I liable for this charge? Is there any point appealing?

    ES Parking are members of BPA according to their letter.

    Link to Claimant's witness statement and evidence
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/wugtxqy8wjpz46w/redacted1.pdf?dl=0
    Last edited by meagainin; 04-05-2018 at 7:52 AM. Reason: Additional info
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Sep 17, 2:47 PM
    • 36,343 Posts
    • 20,591 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 17, 2:47 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 17, 2:47 PM
    Everyone is politely asked to read the Newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread


    Read up now on the game you are caught up in


    All advice is there on how and when to appeal this


    (ES Parking are IPC members)
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 15th Sep 17, 2:59 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 17, 2:59 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 17, 2:59 PM
    Apologies for being thick but I have already done that and confused myself even more.

    Nope the letter definitely says they're part of BPA.

    Any help would be appreciated.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 15th Sep 17, 3:02 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,308 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 17, 3:02 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 17, 3:02 PM
    they are members of the BPA "drinking club"
    but use the IPC as there trade body for appeals
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 20th Sep 17, 8:22 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 17, 8:22 PM
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 17, 8:22 PM
    Right, I've calmed down a bit and reread the sticky.

    I take it that I need to use the IPC appeal letter and then wait and see what happens next. I'm going to include a copy of the ticket to show payment was made.

    Does anyone know whether this parking charge cmpany are litigious?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 20th Sep 17, 8:27 PM
    • 36,343 Posts
    • 20,591 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 17, 8:27 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 17, 8:27 PM
    First accept that appeals are futile to IAS companies as set out in the newbies FAQ

    But send the letter in the FAQ if you want

    They have 6 years to start legal action against you so whatever their current claims record is won't necessarily be their approach over the next 6 yeard

    Edit your post to remove details of who was driving.

    Be careful not to reveal who was driving if you alter the FAQ letter
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 20th Sep 17, 8:46 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    • #7
    • 20th Sep 17, 8:46 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Sep 17, 8:46 PM
    Yeah I expect them to reject the appeal but god loves a trier.
    Been trying to edit but wouldn't let me from my phone. Sorted now though.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Sep 17, 9:16 PM
    • 18,384 Posts
    • 29,106 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 20th Sep 17, 9:16 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Sep 17, 9:16 PM
    Does anyone know whether this parking charge cmpany are litigious?
    They have tried quite a few. Every one we've helped with has seen them off.

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/E_S_Parking_Enforcement.html

    These are not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, so a well developed defence should not only see them off, but result in a defendant having the opportunity to claim some nice costs from them.

    But no need to be either worried, or too anxious to try to shift this forward quickly. See what transpires.

    Main message - stay calm, eat cake read threads.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Sep 17, 2:01 AM
    • 59,521 Posts
    • 72,691 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 17, 2:01 AM
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 17, 2:01 AM
    Does anyone know whether this parking charge cmpany are litigious?
    Originally posted by meagainin
    Odd question when the NEWBIES FAQ thread tells you how to search and find that data.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 21st Sep 17, 7:13 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    Only odd because you don't know me, I am the master of asking stupid questions when I'm in a flap

    I need to stop flapping and read the FAQ's again as I missed that bit completely.
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 2nd Oct 17, 8:56 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    I've missed my chance to appeal!

    I'd had a bit of trouble trying to reduce the photo of the ticket to fit the size allowed on the appeal website and when I finally sorted it out, the site said I'd gone past the 21 days.

    The charge relates to 1/9, the charge letter was produced on 11/9and I received the notice on 15/9.

    The appeal section says the 21 days began 'on the day after that on which the notice is given'
    Are they saying that the 21 days started the day after the 1/09 and therefore only giving me as the keeper 8 days to lodge an appeal?

    Have I stuffed things up by not getting the appeal in?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 9:17 PM
    • 59,521 Posts
    • 72,691 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I've missed my chance to appeal!
    No you haven't.

    Have I stuffed things up by not getting the appeal in?
    How the heck would it matter? No cases are cancelled, that we ever see, from IPC firms. There is no appeal that actually has any effect, and you'd just sit tight after being rejected anyway - so what?!
    Not sure what you were expecting or how it matters.

    But what does matter is this, I like this!
    The appeal section says the 21 days began 'on the day after that on which the notice is given'. Are they saying that the 21 days started the day after the 1/09 and therefore only giving me as the keeper 8 days to lodge an appeal?
    Love that, it gives you another angle. Get a screenshot NOW, today, showing the date on your PC screen, where it says you've gone past the 21 days.

    Then use that to make a formal complaint to the IPC about this. NOT saying who the driver was, you are the keeper and you'd 'rather not say' who was driving. COMPLAIN.

    The date given is defined in Schedule 4 but you'll know that from when you (should have) read it!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Oct 17, 9:22 PM
    • 3,668 Posts
    • 4,831 Thanks
    waamo
    Have I stuffed things up by not getting the appeal in?
    I think you missed this earlier in this thread

    First accept that appeals are futile to IAS companies as set out in the newbies FAQ
    This space for hire.
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 3rd Oct 17, 6:48 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    Oh I fully expected the appeal to be declined, sorry I didn't make that clear.
    I was just bothered that it would go against me when this goes to court.
    I've been doing a fair bit of reading over the last couple of weeks and will go back and read through schedule 4 again as it obviously hasn't sunk in.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 3rd Oct 17, 11:55 AM
    • 597 Posts
    • 707 Thanks
    claxtome
    Advice/Help about ESPEL
    I am dealing with this the same PPC => Private Parking Company as you for the same problem:
    'flipped ticket' or 'fluttering ticket'.

    My first advice is to guard your ticket you displayed on the day with your life.
    You will need that if/when they take you to court.
    My second advice don't tell the PPC who the driver was so you can appeal as a Keeper.
    (It gives you more options /arguments if it goes to court).
    Be very careful how you word your appeals with this in mind.

    My personal opinion - other people would say not to appeal - I think it shows you are trying to follow their appeal process which you can say to the judge->
    I would appeal to PPC by post, include a copy of the ticket (not actual ticket), then when you get rejection (sorry you will) then ignore all letters until 1 specific one falls on your doorstep which is labelled "Letter Before Country Court Claim" or referred to on here as LBC or LBCCC. My thread below has a dropbox link with all the things I have received/sent to do with my case and includes the LBC I received.

    Note: The appeal rejection to PPC will mention appealing further to IAS. (Search in google for IPC "International Parking Community and the website you find will show 'ES Parking Enforcement Ltd' as a member of IPC. "Independent Appeals Sevice" IAS is the appeal service for IPC)
    My advice is to not appeal to IAS as this will be 99% futile - forum says the same.
    You will probably get a further appeal rejection, waste your time and effort which gives them an upper hand if/when it goes to court.

    If you want help about what to put in your appeal to PPC look at the Sticky under Appeals for IPC affiliated firms - should be a standard letter. Which I would be tempted to send as is but feel free to ask forum if you want to add specifics for your case.
    (My thread includes what I sent to PPC on appeal but in my case got ignored)

    My current thread 'flipped ticket' below shows that the same PPC is taking me to court for the same problem as you 'flipped ticket' or 'fluttering ticket'. I have just submitted my defence and if/when your gets to LBC I can help you more as well as others on here.
    Link to my thread is below:
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5715702

    I am not a big fan of ESPEL (ES Parking Enforcement Ltd) as I am now fighting 2 cases at court for them so happy to help others. The members of this forum have helped me so much with my three parking cases and I want to give something back by helping others; particularly ES Parking cases.

    I hope this helps.
    Remember you are not alone, try and relax and not worry.
    Also you won't get a CCJ unless you lose at court AND don't pay the bill when asked to.
    Last edited by claxtome; 04-10-2017 at 2:20 AM.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 3rd Oct 17, 12:48 PM
    • 597 Posts
    • 707 Thanks
    claxtome
    Nope the letter definitely says they're part of BPA.
    That sounds strange - they shouldn't be showing that on a letter as they are not part of BPA.

    Oh I fully expected the appeal to be declined, sorry I didn't make that clear.
    I was just bothered that it would go against me when this goes to court.
    I think it is the opposite and not count against you at court as it shows you are trying to be reasonable and follow pre-court process if it goes that far as I expect it will.
    (That is appealing to ESPEL your PPC)

    If you go further, not recommended by forum, and use the IAS Appeal service and get a rejection I think it would count against you but not much (read about Gladstones and IAS in google and see that there maybe some correlation in staff ;-) )

    I would also second what Coupon-mad said about taking screenshots as it has not passed the 21 days deadline for appealing.
    Last edited by claxtome; 03-10-2017 at 1:45 PM.
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 3rd Dec 17, 5:02 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    I've received my letter before claim from Gladstones and I'll be sending this as a reply. Any feedback would be appreciated.


    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace
    High Legh Golf Club
    Warrington Road
    Knutsford
    WA16 6AA

    3 December 2017



    Dear Sirs,

    Ref ****************

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 9 November 2017.!

    I am the keeper of vehicle ******** and I deny any debt to ES Parking Enforcement Ltd.
    The driver is not identified in your letter and your client has failed to meet the requirements of The Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue me as the keeper.

    You should be aware that a valid pay and display ticket was paid for and was placed on the window screen at the time that the vehicle was left.

    Please review case C8GF30W7 Link Parking v Mr H (14/11/2016 Port Talbot)
    which a claim was dismissed due to a ticket that had turned upside down. The judge dismissed the claim and ruled that it was the responsibility of the parking company to provide sticky backed tickets and that he had already thrown out 6 -10 of these type of case

    As the keeper, I received your client's parking charge notice to keeper (in relation to parking on 01/09/2017, notice produced on 11/09/2017) on 15/09/2017. I endeavoured to request that your client dismiss this charge via their website, however, although I tried several times over the course of a few days, your client's website would not allow me to upload proof of the valid ticket even after reducing the photograph size more than once.

    I tried again on 02/10/2017 only to find that your client's website would no longer accept my request as it stated that I had exceeded the 21 day appeal period. This is in contravention of Schedule 4 in the IPC code of practice, which your client should adhere to and therefore your client has denied me the right to appeal this charge.

    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.!

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents/information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors, you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors is sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.!

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action!
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.!
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 !!!8220;establishing yourself as the creditor!!!8221;
    8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form


    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.!

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Yours faithfully
    Last edited by meagainin; 05-12-2017 at 7:57 AM.
    • happybagger
    • By happybagger 3rd Dec 17, 5:55 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 61 Thanks
    happybagger
    You might want to change the third word of para 5
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 3rd Dec 17, 8:17 PM
    • 597 Posts
    • 707 Thanks
    claxtome
    The letter looks very professional which I have no specific comment.

    Suggest you look at a similar thread for same PPC as your case and was post Oct 1st rules also in case it can help ->
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5484250#9

    My thread, linked previously, is at WS stage and don't think will help you at your current stage.
    • meagainin
    • By meagainin 4th Dec 17, 7:22 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    meagainin
    Thanks! !!!128578;
    Amended now, can't believe I put that!
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

260Posts Today

3,781Users online

Martin's Twitter