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PCM, Trace & Gladstones

2

Comments

  • ljmw
    ljmw Posts: 11 Forumite
    Hi Everyone.

    So I today received another letter from Gladstones. It again threatens legal action, but offers me the chance to make a payment for the original amount due (£160) within 7 days of the letter (which will be Wednesday as it is dated 20th Sept).

    It then goes on to describe the additional costs that will be incurred which amount to £202.25 if I fail to settle the charge.

    Could use some advice now as to what my next move is. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

    Thanks.
  • beamerguy
    beamerguy Posts: 17,587 Forumite
    First Anniversary Photogenic Name Dropper First Post
    ljmw wrote: »
    Hi Everyone.

    So I today received another letter from Gladstones. It again threatens legal action, but offers me the chance to make a payment for the original amount due (£160) within 7 days of the letter (which will be Wednesday as it is dated 20th Sept).

    It then goes on to describe the additional costs that will be incurred which amount to £202.25 if I fail to settle the charge.

    Could use some advice now as to what my next move is. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

    Thanks.

    GLADSTONES, the now well known incompetent solicitors

    Best advice is to reply stating that the keeper denies
    any debt and for Gladstones to prove the purported debt

    You are dealing with scammers here, treat them as such

    With their reply come back here
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,610 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    ljmw wrote: »
    Hi Everyone.

    So I today received another letter from Gladstones. It again threatens legal action, but offers me the chance to make a payment for the original amount due (£160) within 7 days of the letter (which will be Wednesday as it is dated 20th Sept).

    It then goes on to describe the additional costs that will be incurred which amount to £202.25 if I fail to settle the charge.

    Could use some advice now as to what my next move is. Any guidance would be much appreciated.
    Find the same letter shown in other threads and follow the example replies used before. Gladstones letters are discussed too often...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,345 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    I bet the reference number on that letter commences 3xxx rather than 1xxx.
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • ljmw
    ljmw Posts: 11 Forumite
    Here is a copy of the letter received today. Could someone please help me find the appropriate response. I'm struggling work out which one to use from the Newbies FAQ thread or other existing threads.

    ibb.co/caKJR5
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,610 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    If you are still learning how the forum works, approach it from Google instead for now, keywords:

    gladstones final reminder site:forums.moneysavingexpert.com
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,345 Forumite
    First Anniversary Name Dropper First Post Photogenic
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • ljmw
    ljmw Posts: 11 Forumite
    Would this be along the right lines of a response at this stage?

    I have spent my afternoon scrolling through various threads trying to educate myself on what my best move is...




    To Whom it may concern,

    Your client has failed to comply with its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols by not providing me with a sufficient explanation of the claim and the core documents upon which it will rely. Examples of these are photographs of the car parked at the relevant time, showing its location and the location and wording of all and any signage, and the contract between your client and the landowner granting it rights to manage the parking on the relevant land.

    Your refusal to properly particularise your claim and to comply with the Practice Direction (part of the CPR) will prevent me from being able to submit a proper Defence to the claim.

    Please send me the documents by return - your client must have them, and must be intending to rely on them to prove its claim. The whole point of the Practice Direction is to avoid trial by ambush and to encourage the parties to put their cards on the table. The fact is, my car was parked in a visitor bay so there is no grounds for a claim which I'm sure your client is only too aware of.

    Your client's and your firm's conduct will be brought to the court's attention on costs - may I remind you that even a successful Claimant can be made to pay the Defendant's costs if they have not complied with the Practice Direction.

    Yours sincerely...
  • ljmw
    ljmw Posts: 11 Forumite
    edited 26 September 2017 at 4:11PM
    Or I have also tailored this one to better fit my situation. Any advice on which would be better to use at this stage? I think i prefer this one as it carries a lot more weight....


    This is a formal response to the abovementioned case. I remind you of the overriding objective and - if your company really has a 'Legal Department' - then the qualified staff member will recognise that PCM has no cause of action in law, but that I do.

    When your company issues a 'parking charge' you do not use Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, therefore you have no basis whatsoever to write to a registered keeper, except for the single purpose allowed under the DVLA KADOE rules, namely to 'enquire who was driving'. You must not use the data for any other purpose whatsoever, and certainly not to pursue a registered keeper as if the alleged charge was their liability in law.

    You have failed to supply any photographs or evidence of the driver, nor even the 'contract' (in this case presumably a sign), nor have you set out clearly, the basis upon which you are attempting to hold me liable.

    The driver's identity will not be supplied to a company like yours. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were. As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4.

    Should you seek to proceed with a claim I will apply for it to be struck out, due to CPR Part 3.4:

    (a) that PCM’s statement of case will disclose no reasonable grounds for bringing the claim;
    (b) that the statement of case will be an abuse of the court’s process or is otherwise likely to obstruct the just disposal of the proceedings; and
    (c) that there has been a failure to comply with a rule, practice direction or court order.

    Breaches of the Pre-action Practice Direction (“the PD”):

    Paras 3, 8 and 12 of the PD set out its purpose, which is to primarily to avoid litigation (para 8) by laying down a procedure which allows the parties to:
    - understand each other’s positions (para 3)
    - make decisions about how to proceed (para 3)
    - explore settlement/consider ADR (para 3)
    - support the “efficient management” of any proceedings and reduce costs (para 3)
    - “stocktake” and review their respective positions after following the PD by exchanging information, to see if proceedings can be avoided and to “at least” narrow the issues (para 12).

    Paras 6(a) & (c) oblige a Claimant to enter into a meaningful dialogue with a Defendant at an early stage by imposing specific obligations to:
    - explain the claim in a Letter before Claim, and
    - provide relevant core documents.

    The only 'core document' you have enclosed is a mock-up of a claim form in the name of myself, the registered keeper. This will be drawn to the attention of the presiding Judge at the County Court Business Centre and then at my local Court, should a spurious claim of yours manage to get that far.

    Since you have no cause of action against me as registered keeper, should you proceed with a claim I will file a counter-claim for not less than £500 in compensation for distress caused by your unwarranted demands arising from misuse of the data you obtained from the DVLA for one purpose, yet are now processing it for another purpose not covered by the KADOE regulations.

    I would like to draw your Legal Department's attention to a landmark 2017 judgment at the Leeds County Court, 3SP00071 - Blamires v LGO. This was a claim for damages including a matter of a breach of the DPA, for which an award of £2,500 was granted as compensation for distress. As is now relatively well known, the DPA’s original drafting appeared to preclude compensation for distress alone, but the Court of Appeal, in Vidal Hall & ors v Google[2015] EWCA Civ 311, it was held that this was contrary to the provisions of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and that, accordingly, there was a right under the DPA to claim compensation for “pure” distress.

    The award in Blamires was of “Vidal Hall” compensation, with the judge saying there was ''no doubt in my mind that the data breaches have caused distress to the claimant in their own rights as well as as a result of the consequences that flowed.'' The judge awarded a further £2,500 aggravated damages because of the manner in which the Defendant conducted its case, including the fact that, notwithstanding being told by the Claimant that its conduct/data was wrong, it took nearly two years for the Defendant to admit the mistake.

    I expect PCM to now cancel this 'parking charge' and admit its mistake in attempting to misuse my data, and in trying to mislead me by suggesting that a registered keeper is liable for a non-POFA parking charge 'debt', and that I could be liable for escalated costs/legal fees. As you will be aware, the general costs rule in Small Claims is that there is no costs order.

    However, in support of my own counter-claim, I must remind you that under CPR Rule 27.14(2)(g):

    ''costs can be awarded where a party behaves unreasonably''.

    I refer PCM to paragraph 16 of the Practice Direction – Pre-Action Conduct:
    ''a party who has not complied with its pre-action obligations can be ordered to pay costs (even if the party has succeeded in its claim/defence) and there is also a power to remit/increase interest.''

    I expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm that the charge is cancelled. Should you fail to cancel this PCN and/or pursue a baseless claim without supplying any evidence of any breach of a relevant contract or relevant obligation, or photographs, or the contract, or your basis for pursuing a registered keeper out with the POFA 2012, you may consider this adequate notice of my intention to file a counter-claim.

    All letters exchanged will be used in evidence in court.

    I reserve the right to include your client (landowner/agent) in any claim made, since that party remains jointly and severally liable for the conduct of its agents on their land.

    Yours faithfully,
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 131,610 Forumite
    Name Dropper First Post Photogenic First Anniversary
    edited 27 September 2017 at 10:40PM
    This isn't true of PCM, as such:
    When your company issues a 'parking charge' you do not use Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012, therefore you have no basis whatsoever to write to a registered keeper,

    ..but as your car is leased, I assume they wrote to the Lease Hire firm and were given your details as hirer/lessee? I hope no-one has written to say who was driving on any occasion (no weak appeal?).
    Worth mentioning at this stage that my car is a private lease hire, and my lease company are aware of the tickets, but I am receiving correspondence directly from these companies now.
    Because of the above, as long as the driver has not been evidenced, I would write more along the lines of one that talks about non-compliance with PoFA paragraph 13/14 of Schedule 4, like here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73054082#post73054082

    You'd need to amend it to be more robustly worded, and change the fact that one is aimed at a PPC not their solicitors.

    You could combine it with a line or two saying the letter is misleading, non-compliant with the CPR and discloses no cause of action. It is despicable that, with the CPR rules regarding pre-action protocol significantly changing only next week, so-called 'Gladstones solicitors' (aka the controlling minds behind the IPC Trade Body) are continuing with the same vague, vexatious robo-claims with no facts disclosed, no signage photos, nor terms nor evidence of the alleged 'breach of contract' provided, nor even the most basic checks having been done regarding any liability (or not, in this case) under the POFA for a lessee/hirer.

    and
    To Whom it may concern,

    should be
    Dear sirs,
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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