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  • FIRST POST
    • ScotsMan2017
    • By ScotsMan2017 9th Sep 17, 10:34 AM
    • 9Posts
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    ScotsMan2017
    Excess Mileage Charge - Reached Debt Collectors
    • #1
    • 9th Sep 17, 10:34 AM
    Excess Mileage Charge - Reached Debt Collectors 9th Sep 17 at 10:34 AM
    Hi All,

    Long story short, I became unemployed and then using online advice I VT'd my car. I had planned to keep the vehicle at the end of the term so mileage didn't matter.

    So after VT'd they said based on the estimated mileage I was over, I pointed out that I had paid 50% and that was all I was obligated to pay. The debt has now been passed to DLC, so now I'm not sure what my next move is.

    Any help would be appreciated.
Page 3
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 16th Sep 17, 4:48 PM
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    DoaM
    Point of order ... such a claim would be a civil claim in the County Court. As such, even if the finance company won it wouldn't set a precedent. (It might be persuasive for other claims in the County Court, but there'd be no precedent ... each claim would need to be heard on its own merits).
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 16th Sep 17, 5:41 PM
    • 11,093 Posts
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    neilmcl
    ^This, I'd imagine that this issue has been taken to court on a number of occasions but as there is no precedent then this just means that nobody has taken a judgement to appeal at a higher court, it certainly wouldn't be in the best interests of the finance company to do so either just in case they lost.
    • ScotsMan2017
    • By ScotsMan2017 21st Sep 17, 5:19 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    ScotsMan2017
    To keep everyone updated.

    Communication between car company and the debt collection agency has broken down, according to them they have settled my complaint and the CCA allows for them to charge mileage excess. I have until 6 months after the final response to contact the financial ombudsman to log a complaint.

    After which they reserve the right to purse me.

    I replied basically saying that them telling me the CCA allows them to charge me doesn't make it true and could be them scarying me into paying. And until I have evidence or someone in power tell me that is the case I will not be paying.
    • fiisch
    • By fiisch 21st Sep 17, 10:58 PM
    • 285 Posts
    • 162 Thanks
    fiisch
    I have no advice to offer, but this article is helpful - http://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/car-finance-voluntary-termination-pcp-hp/

    I am in the same boat. I recently VT'ed a Skoda Octavia vRS diesel with 52,000 on the clock, when I had only contracted 35,000. I have now had a bill for £1400. The car was returned in immaculate condition, but the mileage is over.

    My reasons were not as genuine as yours - the part-ex/private selling figures I was getting offered were abysmal - below the guaranteed future value, yet the vehicle still had a year left to run. The car had been passed to my wife, and was unsuitable, so I decided to VT and get her something smaller with cheaper monthly payments. I was also advised by the new dealer (Seat, so part of the same group) to VT and I should have no issues with the mileage - I accepted this, probably because it was what I wanted to hear.

    I freely accept I have used the VT perhaps slightly disingenuously, although I'd argue my vehicle's value was hampered by the downturn in public opinion of diesels and VW's emissions scandal.

    I found a letter template from Legal Beagals (sp?) which I sent back to the finance company and waiting to hear back.... I'm not sure whether by refusing to pay what I am doing is necessarily "fair", although the car did go back in exceptional condition (I wash my own cars, lambswool mitts and expensive products, do not eat/drink in them etc.!)
    Last edited by fiisch; 21-09-2017 at 11:00 PM.
    • fiisch
    • By fiisch 6th Oct 17, 4:18 PM
    • 285 Posts
    • 162 Thanks
    fiisch
    I sent a template letter from Legal Beagles basically saying I've paid >60% of the car and that it contradicts Section 75 etc....


    Skoda have investigated it as a Complaint and rejected it, on account of the fact they informed me several times on the phone regarding excess mileage charge. I do have the option to escalate to the Financial Ombudsman, but knowing how unpredictable they can be I'm not too sure about whether this is sensible.


    I disputed their decision - advising them that the dealership informed us that excess mileage charge would be waived on account of the fact we took a new deal with VWFS - and they are to investigate further, but no doubt they will find against me again.


    Any advice on how to proceed? Should I just pay the £1500-odd balance and get it done with, or is it worth letting it go to debt collection and ignoring it?!
    • Lucky Duck
    • By Lucky Duck 6th Oct 17, 4:38 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 91 Thanks
    Lucky Duck
    Have you VTd or traded your car in for a new one?
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 6th Oct 17, 4:42 PM
    • 4,394 Posts
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    DoaM
    Raise it with FOS - it costs you nothing, and even if they don't uphold your claim their findings are not binding on you ... the finance company still need to pursue you through the courts to make you pay.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • fiisch
    • By fiisch 6th Oct 17, 4:56 PM
    • 285 Posts
    • 162 Thanks
    fiisch
    I VT'ed and bought a new car, but new car was in my wife's name.


    I would normally have part-exed, but the dealer said the particular offer on the new car meant that they could not accept any part exchange (the car was immaculate - I'm a hobbying car detailer!).


    Thank you - if nothing else, going to the FOS will delay precedings.
    • fiisch
    • By fiisch 19th Oct 17, 1:02 PM
    • 285 Posts
    • 162 Thanks
    fiisch
    To keep everyone updated.

    Communication between car company and the debt collection agency has broken down, according to them they have settled my complaint and the CCA allows for them to charge mileage excess. I have until 6 months after the final response to contact the financial ombudsman to log a complaint.

    After which they reserve the right to purse me.

    I replied basically saying that them telling me the CCA allows them to charge me doesn't make it true and could be them scarying me into paying. And until I have evidence or someone in power tell me that is the case I will not be paying.
    Originally posted by ScotsMan2017

    Scotsman2017 - have you heard any more from the debt collectors?


    I have a deadline of Monday to pay up or it gets passed to the Collections Team. Plan to stall them by saying "I'm preparing as case for the FOS", then taking the full six months before escalating to the FOS to slow the timeline and hope my case gets buried...
    • rachel2017
    • By rachel2017 27th Dec 17, 7:35 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    rachel2017
    Updates
    Any updates on this guys? Iím in the same boat... VT a car I had on PCP through VW financial services, now a debt collections agent from Liverpool keep ringing me and they even rang me dad. No idea what to do next!
    • MaximumFish
    • By MaximumFish 5th Mar 18, 9:13 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    MaximumFish
    I have a deadline of Monday to pay up or it gets passed to the Collections Team. Plan to stall them by saying "I'm preparing as case for the FOS", then taking the full six months before escalating to the FOS to slow the timeline and hope my case gets buried...
    Originally posted by fiisch
    Any news on what happened with this? I'm looking to VT my own car imminently and was under the impression there would be nothing further to pay, so these threads have got me nervous. As it is I'm within the overall mileage limit but over on a pro-rata basis and was hoping for a nice, smooth handover. :-/
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 5th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
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    neilmcl
    I'm guessing he paid up.
    • MobileSaver
    • By MobileSaver 5th Mar 18, 10:34 AM
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    MobileSaver
    I'm looking to VT my own car imminently and was under the impression there would be nothing further to pay,
    Originally posted by MaximumFish
    If you have paid 50% or more of the amount due and return the car in reasonable condition then there is nothing further to pay.

    As it is I'm within the overall mileage limit but over on a pro-rata basis and was hoping for a nice, smooth handover. :-/
    Originally posted by MaximumFish
    If you are within the agreed mileage then the finance company's position is even weaker, it's none of their business whether you drive 1 mile in week one and 9999 miles in week 52 or vice versa. Regardless, if you VT then the law of the land is as clear as day... they have no legal right to charge you for excess mileage. They may huff and they may puff but they know full well they don't have a leg to stand on.

    The only reason they keep pursuing people is that they know many people don't want the hassle and so will give in and pay at least something extra to them; as they're not entitled to a penny, anything you pay is pure profit and so it's worth their while to keep chasing.

    As my own experience shows, robustly restate your position repeatedly early on and they quickly give up themselves once they realise you do actually know your legal rights.
    Respect to 3 of the greatest actors of all time; amazing people who are totally believable as the characters they play & almost single-handedly make the shows they starred in:

    Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones
    Daniel J. Travanti as Frank Furillo in Hill Street Blues
    Claire Danes as Carrie Mathison in Homeland
    • MaximumFish
    • By MaximumFish 5th Mar 18, 10:43 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    MaximumFish
    As my own experience shows, robustly restate your position repeatedly early on and they quickly give up themselves once they realise you do actually know your legal rights.
    Originally posted by MobileSaver
    So you have successfully done this before? Did you use any template letters, or have copies of the letters you used?
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 5th Mar 18, 11:53 AM
    • 3,041 Posts
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    Tarambor
    The FOS have ruled in at least one case it is enforceable.

    http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=65660

    The reasoning on the ruling:

    Section 100(4) of the Act merely says that reasonable care must have been taken of the
    goods; I consider that in addition to damage beyond wear and tear, mileage limitation is also
    a fair measure of what is !!!8216;reasonable care!!!8217; of a car. Therefore, it follows that I do not
    consider excess mileage charges to be contrary to the Act
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 5th Mar 18, 5:14 PM
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    neilmcl
    The FOS have ruled in at least one case it is enforceable.

    http://www.ombudsman-decisions.org.uk/viewPDF.aspx?FileID=65660

    The reasoning on the ruling:

    Section 100(4) of the Act merely says that reasonable care must have been taken of the
    goods; I consider that in addition to damage beyond wear and tear, mileage limitation is also
    a fair measure of what is !!!8216;reasonable care!!!8217; of a car. Therefore, it follows that I do not
    consider excess mileage charges to be contrary to the Act
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Although, ultimately it's down to the courts to interpret and decide on the legislation, the opinion of one particular FOS employee would have little or no weight.
    • MobileSaver
    • By MobileSaver 5th Mar 18, 10:01 PM
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    MobileSaver
    So you have successfully done this before? Did you use any template letters, or have copies of the letters you used?
    Originally posted by MaximumFish
    Yes, here's the letter I sent and I simply repeated my position a couple of times until they backed down and wrote off the additional charges as a "gesture of goodwill."

    Dear Sir or Madam,

    I am writing to notify you that I wish to invoke my statutory right under section 99 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 as I have now paid one half of the total amount payable.

    I hereby give you 14 days notice that the agreement is to be terminated on XXX. Please confirm by return acknowledging termination of the agreement and make arrangements for collection of the vehicle from MY ADDRESS.

    The condition of the car is noted as being in a reasonable condition for its age. Photographic evidence will also be taken in the event of any future dispute by yourself as to the state of the vehicle.

    You will be aware that the Consumer Credit Act prohibits you from levying charges for collection of the vehicle, excess mileage or any other charges that may be applied by you. Such terms are void as they are inconsistent with my rights under the Act where they directly or indirectly impose additional liability. For the avoidance of doubt I will not be signing or returning the form you sent me as this attempts to circumvent my statutory rights.

    Love and kisses,

    MobileSaver
    I consider that in addition to damage beyond wear and tear, mileage limitation is also
    a fair measure of what is "reasonable care" of a car. Therefore, it follows that I do not consider excess mileage charges to be contrary to the Act
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Perverse decisions like this will be why the ombudsman's decision is only binding on the finance company and not the consumer and indeed the ombudsman goes on to say:

    However, he does not have to accept my findings and may pursue this matter by alternative means, such as court, should he wish to do so.
    As Neilmcl said, ultimately it is up to a court to interpret the law and to the best of my knowledge no court has ever agreed that excess mileage is chargeable when VTing. If they had then you would have expected all the finance companies to be quoting the relevant case at every opportunity...
    Last edited by MobileSaver; 05-03-2018 at 10:03 PM. Reason: Neilmcl beat me to it
    Respect to 3 of the greatest actors of all time; amazing people who are totally believable as the characters they play & almost single-handedly make the shows they starred in:

    Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones
    Daniel J. Travanti as Frank Furillo in Hill Street Blues
    Claire Danes as Carrie Mathison in Homeland
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 5th Mar 18, 10:29 PM
    • 11,093 Posts
    • 7,914 Thanks
    neilmcl
    As Neilmcl said, ultimately it is up to a court to interpret the law and to the best of my knowledge no court has ever agreed that excess mileage is chargeable when VTing. If they had then you would have expected all the finance companies to be quoting the relevant case at every opportunity...
    Originally posted by MobileSaver
    Here are 2 recent examples of how this treated at court.

    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/money-debt/consumer-credit-act/99722-bmw-financial-services-voluntary-termination-excess-mileage/page2 - see post #26

    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/motoring-parking/vehicle-finance-and-issues/97275-won-vt-excess-mileage-mbfs-county-court-claim-mortimer-clarke-pls-help/page3 - post #42

    As you'll see the outcome was quite different and therefore going to court is no guarantee of success, particularly if you're not sufficiently prepared.
    • MobileSaver
    • By MobileSaver 6th Mar 18, 9:19 AM
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    MobileSaver
    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/motoring-parking/vehicle-finance-and-issues/97275-won-vt-excess-mileage-mbfs-county-court-claim-mortimer-clarke-pls-help/page3 - post #42

    As you'll see the outcome was quite different and therefore going to court is no guarantee of success, particularly if you're not sufficiently prepared.
    Originally posted by neilmcl
    Good finds! The first judgement is clearly flawed in my opinion while the second succeeded in part using an argument that I've used myself; namely that excess mileage charges only become due at the point of termination, are not accrued prior to termination, and therefore you are not liable if you VT the agreement.

    As with any legal argument the key is to always be prepared otherwise as the first judgement shows you can lose even when the law is on your side.
    Respect to 3 of the greatest actors of all time; amazing people who are totally believable as the characters they play & almost single-handedly make the shows they starred in:

    Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones
    Daniel J. Travanti as Frank Furillo in Hill Street Blues
    Claire Danes as Carrie Mathison in Homeland
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