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  • FIRST POST
    • Yiannage
    • By Yiannage 29th Aug 17, 2:53 PM
    • 31Posts
    • 11Thanks
    Yiannage
    Armtrac Security PCN
    • #1
    • 29th Aug 17, 2:53 PM
    Armtrac Security PCN 29th Aug 17 at 2:53 PM
    Hi Everyone,


    I recently received a PCN from Armtrac Security. It was on the windscreen and the usual 60 if paid in 14 days 100 if not. Due to unforeseen circumstances I have been away and am now around 20 days from when the initial ticket was given.


    I've read through the Newbie thread as to how to appeal to these guys as they are part of the IPC. Now if i'm understanding it correctly the advise is to wait and see if a NTK is sent and then send an appeal letter.


    My main worry is what if they think its being ignored? What happens if a NTK is not received (although i'm sure that wont happen as they'll be wanting the money!) Is it worth sending the appeal letter before a NTK is received as it states on the ticket that any appeal needs to be received within 21 days, including full name, address & reasons for contesting liability.


    I don't want to get stung by these people but want to make sure I get it right!


    Thank you in advance for any help given!
Page 2
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 5th Feb 18, 4:03 PM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    OP, another thing to bear in mind is that if you ask the DVLA for a copy of their info request, this shows they stated that it is to pursue the driver.

    It appears that as soon as Armtrac pursue the RK in the SCC they have misused the data so risk a counterclaim of a suggested 250.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Feb 18, 4:06 PM
    • 9,204 Posts
    • 8,968 Thanks
    The Deep
    Watch this then complain to your MP

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Yiannage
    • By Yiannage 7th Feb 18, 11:17 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Yiannage
    Yup - the same letter!


    So would you recommend asking the DVLA for a copy of their information request?
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 7th Feb 18, 11:22 AM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    Yup - the same letter!


    So would you recommend asking the DVLA for a copy of their information request?
    Originally posted by Yiannage
    Yes I would, make them work for their 2.50 if nothing else.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Yiannage
    • By Yiannage 7th Feb 18, 11:31 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Yiannage
    OK - first point of call will be to the DVLA then, there hasn't been any correspondence with / from the Parking Firm - apart from this NTK (5 months after ticket!) should I write to them aswell?


    The wording on the letter doesn't really give you anything?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Feb 18, 12:13 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,307 Thanks
    pappa golf
    at the time of said ticket this company were going thru "hard times" , gladstones had cost them a fortune , and they were "gazzetted" and almost shut down

    poor things , my heard bleeds (not)
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 7th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    OK - first point of call will be to the DVLA then, there hasn't been any correspondence with / from the Parking Firm - apart from this NTK (5 months after ticket!) should I write to them aswell?


    The wording on the letter doesn't really give you anything?
    Originally posted by Yiannage
    I wouldn't recommend engaging with Armtrac directly, they don't appear to have a clue what they are doing.

    While they are consistent in saying they will not cancel PCNs, they generally contradict themselves in statements, state false claims, ignore legal requirements, and make up new spellings for words.

    This is the company that stated they wouldn't listen to my appeal unless I paid their invoice.

    The fact I wasn't appealing but stating facts that they were unable to pursue it and more so, why would someone make payment and appeal, was lost on them.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 11th Mar 18, 9:31 AM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    Yiannage, have you by any chance received one of these yet?

    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 7:07 PM
    • 57,436 Posts
    • 71,029 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    They cannot give just 14 days and threaten court 'without further notice' when it is a debt claim.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 11th Mar 18, 7:19 PM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    They can't?

    They are so unprofessional, it wouldn't surprise me if they get this wrong too (the date on the letter was early February rather than March).
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 7:22 PM
    • 57,436 Posts
    • 71,029 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Look up the pre-action protocol for Debt Claims. It changed on 1st October and we have letters all over threads here showing how to respond to a non-compliant court threat.

    Search '1st October immune' & SHOW POSTS; never leave it at the default 'show threads'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 11th Mar 18, 7:54 PM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    I have to admit that I've not seen anything about this before now, thanks.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Yiannage
    • By Yiannage 23rd Mar 18, 10:19 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Yiannage
    Yes!!! Came signed for........
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 23rd Mar 18, 10:21 AM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    Yes!!! Came signed for........
    Originally posted by Yiannage
    I finally managed to get them to see sense by confirming that if they followed through with their weak threats, I was hitting them back, hard.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Yiannage
    • By Yiannage 23rd Mar 18, 10:23 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Yiannage
    How did you manage to do that?


    I'm not sure really what my next step is to be honest.........
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 23rd Mar 18, 10:27 AM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    Summarised here: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5811385

    I felt aggrieved with them from the start and contrary to popular advice (which I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting everyone copies me in deviating from), I kept going back to them.

    At least at the end, the approach appears to have paid off.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Yiannage
    • By Yiannage 23rd Mar 18, 10:29 AM
    • 31 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Yiannage
    I'm just having a search Coupon Mad - thank you!
    • Holylemonjuice
    • By Holylemonjuice 4th Apr 18, 3:44 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Holylemonjuice
    Sodding Armtrac!
    Hey guys, this post has been super useful to read. Sorry to hear they are harassing you too. My case is so similar and in a very similar timeline to yours. And I have just received the exact same letter.

    In my case the wind must have blown my ticket onto my seat and I still have the ticket as I kept everything. They did actually send me a letter that totally contradicted themselves by stating that "This PCN was issued to the vehicle for the reason of not displaying a valid ticket as the ticket displayed withing your vehicle had expired by 21 minutes at the time of inspection by our patrol officer"

    However in response to the recently received letter - exactly the same as the one posed above I did take a look about as suggested and have found the following - Do you think I should send this?

    Looking for some advice, many thanks.

    Armtrac Security Services
    P.O. Box 154
    Penzance
    TR20 9WD

    4th April 2018

    To whom it may concern,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim on 19th March 2018.

    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence you place reliance upon.

    You must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat [s]and therefore[/s[ this letter as a formal request for all of the documents/information that the protocol now requires you to provide.

    You must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order you to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1st October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and you, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including you, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    I require you to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, provide a copy of that contract bearing my signature. Or is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    6. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. Details of the additions to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.


    If you do not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on you and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until you have complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for you to issue proceedings. Should you do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.
    • grayme-m
    • By grayme-m 4th Apr 18, 3:49 PM
    • 1,387 Posts
    • 864 Thanks
    grayme-m
    Save a stamp by emailing them on armtracappeals@gmail.com

    Got to love how professional this outfit is.
    Toyota - 'Always a better way', avoid buying Toyota.
    • Holylemonjuice
    • By Holylemonjuice 4th Apr 18, 4:06 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Holylemonjuice
    So you would say this is the right thing to send them?

    I am thinking of still sending a letter as I can get work to send it anyway and don't want them harassing me by email too! ha ha
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