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  • Land Registry
    Hi, my parents own their house, it's an end house with garages next to it.. they want to split the large garden so they can have storage that is accessible from council land and then they want to sell the house and move away then come back and forth to use the storage. Would it just be a case of changing the border on the deeds?. Thanks.
    Originally posted by tombunt
    When they sell the house it would be 'split' from the existing title at that point and the buyer would get a new title. We would not split it beforehand.

    So when they sell, bearing in mind Mojisola's post, they would transfer the ownership of the relevant part (TP1)
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • charlibish
    • By charlibish 12th Jan 18, 12:08 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    charlibish
    Do I need an indemnity policy?
    Hi,
    I have had my mortgage for 17 years and am in the middle of remortgaging with another lender. The conveyancing company they use is trying to make me take out an indemnity policy on my leesehold. They are saying:

    "Following our initial title check, it has come to light your property is registered as Good Leasehold a copy of which is enclosed. Good Leasehold titles are normally granted where, for some reason, the Land Owner that originally applied for registration was unable to produce to the Land Registry, sufficient evidence to enable the Land Registry to register the Land with what is known as Absolute title. Absolute title is the class of title that your Mortgage Lender, first direct, requires. Can you please advise if you already have an indemnity insurance policy in relation to this defect, in which case please could you send us a copy? In the event you do not hold a policy we can obtain a quotation for the Indemnity insurance from First Title insurance to protect you and the lender’s interest."

    "You should have been provided one when you purchased your property as the property is not registered as Title Absolute which is what the majority of lenders require the the property to be in order to lend monies on them. It is a First Direct requirement that an indemnity policy must be put in place if the property be Good Leasehold."

    I do not understand what any of this means or what this policy is for. Do I really need one? What is it insuring me against? I am getting no answers from this conveyancing company and feel like they are trying to make me buy something I don't need.

    Any info will be appreciated. Thanks.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Jan 18, 12:23 PM
    • 44,442 Posts
    • 52,765 Thanks
    G_M
    Properties are registered at the Land Registry under different categories.

    'Title Absolute' is the normal one, and means you 100% guaranteed own the property.

    In your case, when you bought the flat, there was a problem as the seller did not have all the required documents to prove he was 100% in a position to sell to you.

    So your Title is registered as 'Good Leasehold', not 'Title Absolute'.

    This means there is a (very small) possibility that someone will come along and claim that they own your property, not you.

    If that happened, you could lose the property. The insurance will pay out to you if that happened.

    First Direct are insisting you have this insurance in case
    a) you stop paying the mortgage and they repossess the property from you, and
    b) this unknown person comes along and claims ownership

    In that case First Direct would have neither your mortgage repayments nor the property.
  • Land Registry
    Hi,
    I have had my mortgage for 17 years and am in the middle of remortgaging with another lender. The conveyancing company they use is trying to make me take out an indemnity policy on my leesehold. They are saying:

    "Following our initial title check, it has come to light your property is registered as Good Leasehold a copy of which is enclosed. Good Leasehold titles are normally granted where, for some reason, the Land Owner that originally applied for registration was unable to produce to the Land Registry, sufficient evidence to enable the Land Registry to register the Land with what is known as Absolute title. Absolute title is the class of title that your Mortgage Lender, first direct, requires. Can you please advise if you already have an indemnity insurance policy in relation to this defect, in which case please could you send us a copy? In the event you do not hold a policy we can obtain a quotation for the Indemnity insurance from First Title insurance to protect you and the lender’s interest."

    "You should have been provided one when you purchased your property as the property is not registered as Title Absolute which is what the majority of lenders require the the property to be in order to lend monies on them. It is a First Direct requirement that an indemnity policy must be put in place if the property be Good Leasehold."

    I do not understand what any of this means or what this policy is for. Do I really need one? What is it insuring me against? I am getting no answers from this conveyancing company and feel like they are trying to make me buy something I don't need.

    Any info will be appreciated. Thanks.
    Originally posted by charlibish
    Good, rather than Absolute, Leasehold title can be granted for a few reasons. The most common being that was what was applied for at the time of first registration and the applicant was unable to prove conclusively that the person(s) who granted the lease owned the freehold title. In essence they lacked evidence to confirm categorically that the landlord was able to grant the lease.

    It's unlikely to have been an issue re your own seller when you bought as I suspect the title was already granted.

    As posted it is insuring you (and the lender) against the risk that someone might come along and prove that the landlord had nor ight to grant the lease as they did not own the land and building. That risk may be very small but it exists so a lender will invariably wish to insure against it.

    Have you checked to see if the freehold is now registered? Sometimes the freehold will be registered after all the lease has been granted as for example it changes hands and that triggers the need to register. I suspect it isn't as the conveyancer/lender may have checked but still worth confirming.

    You could also look to try and identify who owns the freehold now BUT it's important to consider that carefully as any effort to do so might pse a problem for you getting an insurance policy. In essence your searching for the freeholder increases the risk of someone coming forward who isn't the one who granted the lease - extreme possibility but again a real risk to consider.

    If the freehold is unregistered and ther eis no clue as to who owns it now and no prospect of resolving that aspect then it may be worth taking the indemnity insurance. It can be quite a small cost in the bigger scheme of things but again something your conveyancer should be able to confirm for you.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Woolsy84
    • By Woolsy84 12th Jan 18, 3:44 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Woolsy84
    Land Registery recently transferred
    Hi,
    My mother-in-law recently had a bad stroke and is still in hospital. She owns 2 houses with no mortgage on either.
    We've only just found out that she transferred the land registery ownership on one of the houses over to my wife about a year ago, which was quite a surprise to both of us.
    Does this mean we have complete ownership of the house? Need some advice what this actually means as my wife didn't sign anything.
    • AlexMac
    • By AlexMac 12th Jan 18, 4:34 PM
    • 2,043 Posts
    • 1,794 Thanks
    AlexMac
    Can one split and sell part of a site if a single structure spans both halves?
    Dear L R rep!

    Your earlier reply ...
    When they sell the house it would be 'split' from the existing title at that point and the buyer would get a new title. We would not split it beforehand.

    So when they sell, bearing in mind Mojisola's post, they would transfer the ownership of the relevant part (TP1)
    Originally posted by Land Registry
    ...prompts me to ask a similar question.

    Friends are desperate to move to our street but houses rarely come to market.

    The one which is now on sale is ideal; but far too big, as it is a conversion of an existing double-fronted coach house with a large garden and over 20 metres of frontage on to our street, a former Mews.

    So they wonder whether they can buy it, appoint an architect and secure planning permission to convert or develop (which won't be a problem given the street frontage and many local precedents) then sell half, or less than half of the plot, undeveloped, as site for the buyer to build on.

    The question is, given that they would hope to sell part of an existing building, whether they could separate the title without actually demolishing the part they don't want? In other words, can you draw an arbitrary line through the building and its rear garden, then parcel that up as a discrete rectangular plot, if there is not yet any obvious physical separation ?

    The ideal outcome would be to end up with two, separate detached properties; theirs based on the existing one, a second, separate, smaller new-build on the released plot after demolition of that portion. A fall-back would be to have a semi-detached solution by securing permissions based on retaining but extending the existing building. In this latter case the separation would necessarily follow the line of one of the structural party walls.

    They're not phased by the engineering or demolition challenges (he was a civil engineer) but not sure whether you can sell a newly created title to part of an existing structure with a view to later, physical separation?
    Last edited by AlexMac; 12-01-2018 at 4:37 PM.
  • Land Registry
    Hi,
    My mother-in-law recently had a bad stroke and is still in hospital. She owns 2 houses with no mortgage on either.
    We've only just found out that she transferred the land registery ownership on one of the houses over to my wife about a year ago, which was quite a surprise to both of us.
    Does this mean we have complete ownership of the house? Need some advice what this actually means as my wife didn't sign anything.
    Originally posted by Woolsy84
    We register the legal ownership of the property. There is also the beneficial ownership, namely who has what share, what's in the will or any trust etc to consider as well from a 'complete ownership' perspective.

    I'd perhaps recommend contacting us with the specifics to get a copy of the application form and or transfer as appropriate and go from there re trying to understand what happened and why. Hopefully she used a solicitor although if she did then I'd have expected them to have been checking your wife's identity and agreement
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land Registry
    Dear L R rep!

    Your earlier reply ...


    ...prompts me to ask a similar question.

    Friends are desperate to move to our street but houses rarely come to market.

    The one which is now on sale is ideal; but far too big, as it is a conversion of an existing double-fronted coach house with a large garden and over 20 metres of frontage on to our street, a former Mews.

    So they wonder whether they can buy it, appoint an architect and secure planning permission to convert or develop (which won't be a problem given the street frontage and many local precedents) then sell half, or less than half of the plot, undeveloped, as site for the buyer to build on.

    The question is, given that they would hope to sell part of an existing building, whether they could separate the title without actually demolishing the part they don't want? In other words, can you draw an arbitrary line through the building and its rear garden, then parcel that up as a discrete rectangular plot, if there is not yet any obvious physical separation ?

    The ideal outcome would be to end up with two, separate detached properties; theirs based on the existing one, a second, separate, smaller new-build on the released plot after demolition of that portion. A fall-back would be to have a semi-detached solution by securing permissions based on retaining but extending the existing building. In this latter case the separation would necessarily follow the line of one of the structural party walls.

    They're not phased by the engineering or demolition challenges (he was a civil engineer) but not sure whether you can sell a newly created title to part of an existing structure with a view to later, physical separation?
    Originally posted by AlexMac
    You can sell any part of a registered title if the buyer is happy with the terms and defined split. The devil would be in the detail so if you split along structural lines and then removed the structure you need to be clear as to where the boundary then exists.

    See our PG 40 sup 2 re plans for leases/transfers of part for an idea of the quality of plan we would need. The buyer may want more depending on the devilish detail of course
    Last edited by Land Registry; 15-01-2018 at 5:52 AM.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Barter
    • By Barter 15th Jan 18, 9:58 AM
    • 583 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    Barter
    Hi LR rep,

    I'm selling an unregistered house after 45 years of living in it.
    It has a very small flying freehold (c.3% of the total area) which has never been an issue. I think the previous owner made a declaration in the deeds to that effect when she sold.
    The buyers' solicitor now wants me to pay for indemnity insurance. I am trying to find out whether this is a condition of their lender.
    But if not, is it essential from the Land Registry side, or just preferable for the buyers? (and, if anyone knows, who should pay for it?)
    Many thanks.
  • Land Registry
    Hi LR rep,

    I'm selling an unregistered house after 45 years of living in it.
    It has a very small flying freehold (c.3% of the total area) which has never been an issue. I think the previous owner made a declaration in the deeds to that effect when she sold.
    The buyers' solicitor now wants me to pay for indemnity insurance. I am trying to find out whether this is a condition of their lender.
    But if not, is it essential from the Land Registry side, or just preferable for the buyers? (and, if anyone knows, who should pay for it?)
    Many thanks.
    Originally posted by Barter
    Indemnity is usually sought to cover against the risk of somethign happenign to disprove a 'claim' against or weakness/defect in the title. It reads as if they are happy to buy and then register but only if you insure against the risk of them not getting absolute title for example.

    In cases of doubt nowadays a buyer will often ask the seller to register the title first and then consider the risk, if any remains.

    Who pays the cost is a matter for seller/buyer to resolve in the same way the sale/purchase price is often negotiated up ro down. There's no right answer to the who pays Q
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 15th Jan 18, 10:15 AM
    • 2,249 Posts
    • 1,526 Thanks
    Tom99
    When I bought the seller paid for the policy. It won't be that much so don't make a big deal of it.
    • Barter
    • By Barter 15th Jan 18, 11:26 AM
    • 583 Posts
    • 293 Thanks
    Barter
    When I bought the seller paid for the policy. It won't be that much so don't make a big deal of it.
    Originally posted by Tom99
    Any idea of a ball-park figure?
    • moneysense123
    • By moneysense123 15th Jan 18, 11:40 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    moneysense123
    moneysense123 - an RX2 is used to modify or disapply a restriction so we would need to consider the supporting evidence submitted and posisbly/probably write to the restrictioner.

    The devil is always in the detail but invariably the applicaiton will take time and would not, in my experience, be done in in a few days which seems to be the suggested timeframe

    If the seller's solicitor have submitted it then they should be able to find out timescales/action taken for you. If we do contact a third party then the minimum time allowed for any reply is often 15 working days

    PS - sorry for slow response to your query. Hopefully the caseworker will be considering it far quicker than I managed
    Originally posted by Land Registry
    Thank you very much for your reply. Unfortunately we seem stuck now and the sellers solicitors are not the most proactive!! The land registry kindly responded and advised that portford homes who put the restriction in place was taken over by another company called green belt. The land registry advised that the solicitor should go to the builders to provide a certificate to remove it. The builders have said they were aware of the covenant from a house sale on the same street last year which was lifted for that house but they have no interest in this one and said the solicitors need to go back to the land registry to remove it. I am not entirely confident the sellers solicitors are pushing this and we are now in month 5 since we sold and our buyer is getting impatient. Is there anyway we could chase with the land registry? Also the original RX2is with the land registry- if the new builders have sent that response can the land registry lift it and how long would it take.
    Many thanks in advance
  • Land Registry
    Thank you very much for your reply. Unfortunately we seem stuck now and the sellers solicitors are not the most proactive!! The land registry kindly responded and advised that portford homes who put the restriction in place was taken over by another company called green belt. The land registry advised that the solicitor should go to the builders to provide a certificate to remove it. The builders have said they were aware of the covenant from a house sale on the same street last year which was lifted for that house but they have no interest in this one and said the solicitors need to go back to the land registry to remove it. I am not entirely confident the sellers solicitors are pushing this and we are now in month 5 since we sold and our buyer is getting impatient. Is there anyway we could chase with the land registry? Also the original RX2is with the land registry- if the new builders have sent that response can the land registry lift it and how long would it take.
    Many thanks in advance
    Originally posted by moneysense123
    The response and timescales remain the same as posted previously. The key appears to be the need to orovide evidence that the now benefiting party have no interest in enforcing the restriction.

    You need to also bear in mind that an RX2 will not remove it so the same issue may impact when they wish to sell for example although I appreciate that is not your real concern. But it's interesting that they have referred to removing it but the application is to disapply it. Two different things.

    The key for me woukd be what evidence have you got re interest now with new company and how have they demonstrated that it's not something they want applied here or removed altogether.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • moneysense123
    • By moneysense123 16th Jan 18, 7:16 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    moneysense123
    Thank you very much for such a quick response. Following this move we hope not to move again but if we do does this mean the same process will have to be followed by potential new buyers to disapply if for them also?

    So am I right in thinking that what needs to Happen is the new building company have to provide sufficient evidence to the land registry so you can disapply it? If so if there a way that we can check the progress with this as I’m really worried our buyer is going to pull out as he’s been waiting for us to move into this property since September. Many thanks
  • Land Registry
    Thank you very much for such a quick response. Following this move we hope not to move again but if we do does this mean the same process will have to be followed by potential new buyers to disapply if for them also?

    So am I right in thinking that what needs to Happen is the new building company have to provide sufficient evidence to the land registry so you can disapply it? If so if there a way that we can check the progress with this as I’m really worried our buyer is going to pull out as he’s been waiting for us to move into this property since September. Many thanks
    Originally posted by moneysense123
    Correct. And you can use our online contact form to query progress
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Plough2018
    • By Plough2018 22nd Jan 18, 8:01 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Plough2018
    Hi there. I am buying a property. It transpires theres a small boundary issue with a neighbour requiring a TP1 to correct. That’s been submitted by to the LR Portal by the Vendors Solicitor, inc plans done by a RICS Surveyor. There is no mortgage lender on either side, or security over the property and no dispute with neighbours / vendors re whats needed.


    The ‘problem’ is its protracted and we have to await approval. The Solicitor is trying to expedite but theres no guarantee. One option is to Exchange (and possibly Complete) with the TP1 open and approval pending. As the buyer is there a 'risk' of proceeding to Exchange if the TP1 is still awaiting Land Registry approval? Thanks in advance to anyone who may offer a view.
  • Land Registry
    Hi there. I am buying a property. It transpires theres a small boundary issue with a neighbour requiring a TP1 to correct. That’s been submitted by to the LR Portal by the Vendors Solicitor, inc plans done by a RICS Surveyor. There is no mortgage lender on either side, or security over the property and no dispute with neighbours / vendors re whats needed.


    The ‘problem’ is its protracted and we have to await approval. The Solicitor is trying to expedite but theres no guarantee. One option is to Exchange (and possibly Complete) with the TP1 open and approval pending. As the buyer is there a 'risk' of proceeding to Exchange if the TP1 is still awaiting Land Registry approval? Thanks in advance to anyone who may offer a view.
    Originally posted by Plough2018
    Plough2018 - there's always a risk and if you did exchange/complete invariably a conveyancer would be seeking an undertaking from the seller's conveyancer that they would resolve any issues that may arise on the TP1 application

    So there is no simple answer to this re the risk as it will be up to your conveyancer to decide how they wish to operate on it and advise you.

    I should add that providing there is a confirmed sale/purchase and the TP1 solicitor lodges those details and askes for expedition I would not expect us to refuse.

    Expedition normally means it is considered within 10 working days and if all is in order it is completed. The key is whether it is all in order and the conveyancer, when asking for an undertaking, would be thinking the same thing.

    Using an RICS surveyor is a good thing as often issues arise over the quality of the plans submitted particularly where a small bit of land is involved. If the plan is good enough then that should negate the need for us to visit and carry out our own survey. Where we have to that can add an extra delay (2 weeks max usually if again all in order) to the process
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • Plough2018
    • By Plough2018 22nd Jan 18, 10:58 AM
    • 2 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Plough2018
    Hi there. Thanks for the quick reply.


    To clarify, the Vendors Solicitor submitted the TP1. Both Solicitors, Vendors and neighbour agree with whats needed. We're happy too. Its not been done 'DIY'. There is however significant pressure on the chain, hence we have to consider Exchanging (and possibly Completing) - to do so, there will be a 'best endeavours' clause added to contract. What we're 'worried' about are the possible issues that may arise. We can't see what or why but our Solicitor has said things happen. We have to take a view, hence my question. Any additional thoughts appreciated!
  • Land Registry
    Hi there. Thanks for the quick reply.


    To clarify, the Vendors Solicitor submitted the TP1. Both Solicitors, Vendors and neighbour agree with whats needed. We're happy too. Its not been done 'DIY'. There is however significant pressure on the chain, hence we have to consider Exchanging (and possibly Completing) - to do so, there will be a 'best endeavours' clause added to contract. What we're 'worried' about are the possible issues that may arise. We can't see what or why but our Solicitor has said things happen. We have to take a view, hence my question. Any additional thoughts appreciated!
    Originally posted by Plough2018
    Understood but unsure why there is anything additional I can usefully add.

    Your Q was 'As the buyer is there a 'risk' of proceeding to Exchange if the TP1 is still awaiting Land Registry approval?' - my answer was yes as like your solicitor has already explained 'things happen'.

    If you are asking what things then I think it's best your solicitor explains as it they who are magaing the risk for you and they will have their own experiences of what can happen.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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