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    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 25th Jul 17, 11:44 AM
    • 56Posts
    • 37Thanks
    wdm1985
    Unknown CCJ with some complexities- please help
    • #1
    • 25th Jul 17, 11:44 AM
    Unknown CCJ with some complexities- please help 25th Jul 17 at 11:44 AM
    Hi Guys,

    Firstly- you guys are a credit to society for providing so much advice to people on this site. It really has been an amazing resource. So far I have had a good read of Coupon-Mads advice, post 2 on the newbies thread as well as reading all of the Saggi1975 threads on a successful appeal. Our case is a little more complex so please do read on and I would be grateful for some advice.

    I am writing to try and help my pregnant wife out (our first bambino is on the way!!!). We had applied for a new credit card to buy stuff for the upcoming arrival and to our surprise it was rejected. We are both doctors and there would be no reason to have bad credit- until we realised she had a CCJ in November which we knew nothing about. This has made her incredibly upset as not only are we trying to get stuff for the baby, we are also due to re-mortgage our first home.
    Essentially my wife had received four tickets at our tower block over the period of 2015. 3 of these were for overstaying the allotted time in a visitors spot and one for not displaying a permit. We had been wrongly advised by other residents these were frivolous and unenforceable and the paperwork was kept for about six months before being destroyed.
    This is where it gets complex. We received a redirected letter in Oct- I tried to post a pic but I am not allowed. Essentially it is for 4 tickets:
    3 for staying over time in a visitors bay
    1 for parking without a permit ( we did have one- it probably fell from the dash)
    This was a letter before action

    Given the amount of money involved my wife spoke to her friend who was a solicitor. She instructed him to negotiate on our behalf and he did so in October. After multiple back and forth we did not hear anything else from SCS or indeed our friend. As far as we are aware the last email/conversation went something like;
    “If I do not here further on this matter I shall consider it resolved”
    Fast forward to today and we have the CCJ. We received no court papers and no outcome of the verdict. To complicate things our family friend has moved to Brazil and I have not been able to contact him. My concern is that I have no record of the conversations between him and the Law firm- so I do not know if he admitted that my wife was the driver or just the registered keeper- which makes it hard to decide exact defence.

    I have contacted the court and we have confirmed that the CCJ was issued by SCS on behalf of UKPC. I do not have any documentation pertaining to the case. I can prove that we had moved address in March 2016 and we had a full mail redirect in place for 12 months so there was no court papers delivered. If this had been the case we would have either paid or defended. (I know the right answer is to defend- my wife might have paid).
    My issues before applying for a set aside:
    1. We did enter into discussions with SCS through an intermediary but do not know how far this progressed. Is this an admission of guilt?
    2. We have no email trail to see exactly what was said- I am desperately trying to get hold of our friend in the outback of Brazil.
    3. Are we still in a position to be able to apply for a set aside? Personally I still believe we have a case. On the basis that one ticket was issued for not having a permit- we did and I still have it. It may have fallen off the dash which commonly happened.
    Also the overstaying time at this block has previously been upheld by POPLA. I found this thread from last year
    forums.moneysavingexpert. com /showthread.php?t=5434719
    (there is a space in this to allow i to be accessed)

    This relates to the apartment block that we actually lived in. POPLA agreed with the claimant and I have reached out to the person who won the case to see if they reply.
    4. Can we ask for any further hearings to be held in a local court? My wife is now 17 weeks pregnant and has been quite unwell. This has been very stressful and upsetting for her and I don’t want her to have to travel anywhere far for this.


    Ultimately- We just want to have the CCJ removed. I know to do get a set aside this we complete an N244 (The court has provided this to me already). My only concerns are what I have raised are above but I don’t think we have any other option. Would you guys be able to look at our defence statements etc if we go ahead?

    This has come at such a bad time for us and its pretty stressful so help and support is very much appreciated.

    Many thanks,

    WDM
Page 4
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 1st Nov 17, 7:44 PM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,249 Thanks
    Johnersh
    CONGRATULATIONS. a drink for you and a Shloer for Mrs WDM

    Nice. On a different day (and without the inevitable concern for a stressed Mrs WDM you might have got the costs of today, without rolling them forward to next time. You still run the risk of having to pay the tickets and this application (which you wouldn't have done, had they checked the address for service prior to issuing the claim form).

    In any case, you can still fight it. I regard this as definitely a win - frankly unbelievable that the hearing didn't finish at the point that the notation on the Court file was spotted.

    The Defendant was never entitled to default judgment as you were never served with proceedings and, in fact, there was an obligation on the Court to set aside the judgment because of that.

    I doubt the Claimant's advocate did have rights of audience, but that doesn't really matter, because you are a winner! It's a technical point and hard to argue persuasively without being totally on top of both the statute and case law.

    He also felt that we had a strong argument to win a case if it was brought against us
    This is worth using to go on the offensive with. You may wish to consider writing to the Defendant with a "drop hands offer" on the basis that the District Judge has already remarked that your case not only is more than merely arguable (the legal test for a set aside) but that you are likely to succeed. There are loads of examples on the forum.

    To avoid the time and costs of a hearing you are making an offer to settle on a drop hands basis. That is to say that at this juncture everyone just walks away, bearing their own costs. It has a value because if you win at a later trial they are on the hook for court costs of the ticket AND the set aside. That will cost them the best part of £500 particularly if you both needed the day off work again. Naturally the opposite is also true.

    The only certainty is that if you both agreed to walk away now, you are £255 down, the Claimant has spent £25 on Court fees, say £100 for their advocate today and (being generous) perhaps £80 on letter writing etc - almost a score draw. That should have some appeal, but a purely sensible/commercial analysis of litigation risks is not something the parking companies are known for.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Nov 17, 9:25 PM
    • 20,526 Posts
    • 32,443 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Nice report, enjoyed reading it and well done in getting the CCJ set aside.

    This is compounded by the fact that I have been trying to study for my surgical exams and it has taken much needed time away from the books. I haven't been able to sleep as I have been under so much pressure and it has not eased much knowing that they will come after us once again.
    I’m sure your Hippocratic Oath won’t allow you to agree with me, but I do hope you’re operating on one of those who caused you these problems, after another one of your sleepless nights! Do you cover ‘Karma’ in your studies?
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 02-11-2017 at 7:00 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 1st Nov 17, 9:33 PM
    • 8,593 Posts
    • 7,895 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Well done! The claimants rep is always going to claim they have a strong chance of winning - it's all part of the imitation game to try and get you to give them money.

    The reality is they lose most claims where the defense is well prepared. A "drop hands" offer is the fairest all round, and makes you look more reasonable when they (probably) reject it. When they do you can always see what they'll want to consider it claimed, and give them a counter offer of something like £10 for their hassle.

    For you to get your £255 set-aside back at this stage you'd need to let it go back to court again, beat them and claim your costs. You stand a pretty good chance of winning, and even if losing you're (a) not paying much more than they are asking for now and (b) you can get some comfort from the fact they are still losing money from it*

    *The only way they actually make money is from people who pay up without fighting it.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Nov 17, 9:46 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    THEN the bombshell....
    whilst the claimant rep was stating having evidence of paperwork i like the set aside etc the judge stated that the LPC/SCS team must not have all the evidence as there is a record of someone calling the court in January 2017 to tell them they had recieved court papers that were not theirs and they believed that they were for the former tenant!! They had noted they had no forwarding address.

    They opposing council looked dumbfounded and my wife and I could hardly believe our ears.
    Wow, what a turn up!

    If this proceeds to a hearing for the actual case, you CAN act as lay rep. Don't accept a drop hands offer that means you are still out of pocket by £255 and your costs for attending! They owe you £255 at least, already.

    DO NOT pay for the expenses of a lay rep, nor accept some random stranger offering to 'help':

    We would consider using one of the advocate systems that people have had success with before- I don't know even where to start with this...
    Nonononono. More no.

    You'd have no idea who rocks up, who they actually are, what their real agenda is. NOPE.

    At Manchester the Judges know the score re parking scams anyway, as it seems you noticed. You are likely to win and you need to claim your costs even if VCS now discontinue.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-11-2017 at 6:37 PM.
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 22nd Dec 17, 9:13 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    Hi Guys,

    So an update. We eventually got our set aside confirmed and it was cleared off my wifes records by the courts. We could file a new defence or just keep our defence from the the set aside on record. In the end we did that as I just didn't have the time to do the paperwork or file for discovery.

    We finally got round to it and got the PDF today.

    So interestingly- they have provided a contract with the management company. Of most interest to me they seem to have missed that the contract is dated after 3/4 of the tickets. Surely this is a good thing for us? we have an option to file a reply/directions questionnaires but I would have thought that this is better for me to hold for court.

    Secondly- the ticket for 'not displaying a valid ticket'- the ticket can be seen in the window. However, there is a handwritten note to my wife saying this is the wrong spot. Now my wife was given a blank permit without a space on it. They have only ticketed her because of this note. Surely that doesn't count as legally binding. I doubt there is a record of what car is parked where and secondly she had parked there many times without a ticket.

    thoughts?

    thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Dec 17, 1:06 AM
    • 64,896 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Of most interest to me they seem to have missed that the contract is dated after 3/4 of the tickets. Surely this is a good thing for us? we have an option to file a reply/directions questionnaires but I would have thought that this is better for me to hold for court.
    You can't ambush the other side at the hearing, so definitely file a Witness Statement reply to this, and if you are sent a DQ you must complete it.

    Secondly- the ticket for 'not displaying a valid ticket'- the ticket can be seen in the window. However, there is a handwritten note to my wife saying this is the wrong spot. Now my wife was given a blank permit without a space on it. They have only ticketed her because of this note. Surely that doesn't count as legally binding. I doubt there is a record of what car is parked where and secondly she had parked there many times without a ticket.
    The above sounds good for you!
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 23rd Dec 17, 9:18 AM
    • 1,183 Posts
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    Johnersh
    Statement: assuming the contract is provided only after you lodged the defence, you can now comment on it here.

    Make sure the statement is simultaneously exchanged. You don't want them to prepare their statement only after they've read yours.

    It would be handy to try and find out from management co. Or the minutes of those meetings whether there was a preceding parking contract. There is a risk that they will magic up an earlier one (if there ever was one) when they are aware of the error. From what I see on the forum it's more common for there only ever to be 1 (often quite old) contract though.

    At the moment your statement can only say that the claimant can derive no authority to ticket from the documents produced to court since the parking events pre-date the contract and it is not their land to issue tickets from in the absence of contract or written authority.

    As to the permit. Are you saying the written note was left with the ticket? If the lease is silent as to parking bays and the permit, then I'd be inclined to agree that you can probably park where you like.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 26th Dec 17, 8:22 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    Hi again,

    So our defence for the whole matter is already on file with the courts. We agreed to use the one from the set aside with the judge if we didn't have time to file a new one. We didn't get any of their evidence until after the date for which we were due to submit our defence.
    Can we continue to submit documents to the court after this?

    Coupon.... its not so much as ambushing them.... they have submitted their evidence which includes a contract that is not relevant. I don't quite understand why I should have to inform them of this when they can see it for themselves. All I am doing then is surely allowing them to find more relevant evidence to go after me with?

    I do not know who owns the actual land.... it might be the stakeholders as the flats are all privately owned.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 27th Dec 17, 2:26 PM
    • 4,115 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Find out who owns it then! Land registry.

    You have TWO components to sort. Defence AND your witness statement. Your witness statement can be the one used at your set aside, if you used one, or you write one. You ref all your evidence here. You also show here that the contract is not relevant. Court isn’t about yellin g”surprise”! You must follow procedure.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Dec 17, 6:52 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Can we continue to submit documents to the court after this?
    Yes, why not, they did!

    Coupon.... its not so much as ambushing them.... they have submitted their evidence which includes a contract that is not relevant. I don't quite understand why I should have to inform them of this when they can see it for themselves. All I am doing then is surely allowing them to find more relevant evidence to go after me with?
    Ahh, OK, if you are not actually planning to brandish new documents at the hearing for the first time, then planning to question them about their evidence failures is fine (that sort of 'ambush' is allowed).

    Write yourself a crib sheet out of what you want to say and point out that the 'witness' has almost certainly no such thing, has never even set foot in the car park and probably won't turn up to be questioned. Make sure the Judge hears how unhappy you are with their dodgy evidence and lack of witness.
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 14th Apr 18, 10:21 AM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    HI Guys,
    So we have my wifes case in May. When we submitted our defence for the set aside the judge asked if we wanted to keep that on record and we did. Its just over 2 weeks to the case and we have received the bundle from the claimant and it has frightened us. I was all set to put our revised witness statement together today when I got their bundle. They have said that as we had not submitted a second defence and they have used addressed all the points in our witness statement against us.

    As I had labelled it as a 'skeleton statement' am I still ok to write new one and address other points? if we were forced to use the one from the set aside I am sure that we will lose this case. I was under the impression that we could resubmit paperwork etc up until 2 weeks before which would be Tuesday.

    They have said in their witness statement:

    'the defendant did not file a seperate fully pleaded defence to the claim and per the order dated 1/11/17 the document attached to her application dated 25/08/2017 stands as her defence. I will therefore respond to her assertions'

    In their evidence they still haven't provided a contract with the landowner... just two separate contracts with the management companies at this time. Even then the contracts remain redacted.

    There is so much stuff in their witness statment and so much I would need to look at and rebuke. But i don't even know now. We could lose up to 1500 in this case and with the new baby I feel a bit sick at what now seems a very daunting prospect.

    any advice on what I can actually do now regarding amended witness statement is much appreciated.

    thanks

    WDM
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 14th Apr 18, 11:19 AM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,249 Thanks
    Johnersh
    If they are going to limit you strictly to the defence then they are of course limited to the particulars, they can't have it both ways...

    Yes it'll need work to do your statement. Suggest you start using Dropbox to put the claimants docs (redacted) up for comment.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 14th Apr 18, 1:40 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    guys- could someone advise- I want to find out who the landowner is for the block of flats.... but when I do landregistry I can only seem to find the way to search specific flats and the landowner is key?
    can any one advise?
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 14th Apr 18, 4:03 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    Hi John- thanks for replying. I ts been a few months. I hope you are well.

    Been trawling through their paperwork. Quick question- they have said that they are POFA compliant.. the NTK says that it was for staying longer than the alotted time. I thought that they had to give the time for it to be compliant (It was 8 hrs-but they have just said 'parked for longer than maximum period permitted)

    Cheers

    ps some good news on the contract front. They have provided 2- one for each management company. No mention of visitor parking in the one covering the time period. The second mentions that visitor parking was previously unlimited- the second only came into effect after the three tickets for the visitors bay.
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 15th Apr 18, 8:50 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    HI Guys- can anyone further expand on why NTK is not POFA compliant as a rule? drafting my statement all day and need to put this in.
    thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Apr 18, 2:51 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    You just compare it to para 8 or 9 of Schedule 4, it's easy to read and you can work out for yourself whether your case relates to para 8, or para 9. Honestly it is that simple to read.

    The POFA is linked in the NEWBIES thread (first post, where it says 'if you want to dig deeper').
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 16th Apr 18, 3:40 PM
    • 4,115 Posts
    • 4,987 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    They must comply exactly. No ifs or buts, if itis specified it must be thre. So the PERIOD of parking ie from time a to time b must be there.

    If the contract varying teh permitted time canme into force after 3 tickets were issues, and those three ticekts were issued for being there too long, then theyre stuffed. They were not permitted to ticket for those reasons - they had no authority to do so - and in fact have committed a DPA violation by obtaining your details as keeper.
    • wdm1985
    • By wdm1985 1st May 18, 8:33 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 37 Thanks
    wdm1985
    Hey Guys!

    Absolutely delighted to say we have taken on UKPC today and won in court. All four tickets dismissed and costs in the case awarded to us. First big step- as you know have the other case hanging over me... but relates to same site.. which I am hoping sets a precedent.
    Do I post the review here? would be good to let the prankster know.

    thanks everyone for their help. Special mention to coupon and John!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st May 18, 8:36 PM
    • 20,333 Posts
    • 25,697 Thanks
    Redx
    yes, please post your review here and if you want to tell the prankster email him with a link to this thread and the post number

    well done , given that they are currently banned by the DVLA (see pranksters blogs) its great to see even more success against them with their injustices and malpractice and fraudulent activities
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st May 18, 10:10 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,459 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Do I post the review here?
    Yes please, a court report of how it went from the moment you arrived, even outside the court room, conversations with the rep, right through to the hearing and the decision.

    Which Judge and court?

    WELL DONE!

    As Redx said, did you see UKPC are banned by the DVLA at the mo?

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/ukpc-banned-by-dvla.html
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