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  • FIRST POST
    • arsenalfan1234
    • By arsenalfan1234 5th Jul 17, 11:23 AM
    • 28Posts
    • 2Thanks
    arsenalfan1234
    Builder asking for too much money upfront for extension and shed builds
    • #1
    • 5th Jul 17, 11:23 AM
    Builder asking for too much money upfront for extension and shed builds 5th Jul 17 at 11:23 AM
    Hi all,


    Can I please get some advice from you all..


    I am doing a single storey extension (extending the existing lounge) with a bath/shower room in the corner on the side and a brick built shed at the back of the garden. I have been quoted 43.5k for the works, which I THINK is reasonable.


    Anyway I have narrowed it down to 1 builder, lets call him "Bob". Bob has asked for a third of the amount upfront 14.5k TWO weeks before he has to start (start time is around July end, beginning August). The initial work he has to do is just digging (manually dug, because there is no access for a digger to get through)and drainage I presume. So I said to him, that I am not happy paying so much up front and he said he needs the money to arrange for skips (how expensive are skips these days!) and get the "digging done". He then wants the remaining two thirds of the payments after a month and then second month respectively. I have spoken to a few guys at work and will propose the following payment schedule, does this sound fair to you:




    1) Excavation and drainage: 50% up front and remainder after building control have been out and passed it.


    2) Footings and damp proofing: 50% up front and remainder after building control have been out and passed it.


    3) Brickwork up to plate level and lintels: 50% up front and remainder after building control have been out and passed it.


    4) Carpentry, roof, soffits, guttering, soakaway: 50% up front and remainder after completion of this work package.


    5) First fix electric and plumbing (wiring and plumbing through walls, ceilings): 50% up front and remainder after completion of this work package.


    6) Bonding, plasterboards and skimming: 50% up front and remainder after completion of this work package.


    7) Floor screeding: 50% up front and remainder after completion of this work package.


    8) Second fix electrics and plumbing (plug sockets, light switches, radiator installation): 50% up front and remainder after completion of this work package.



    And 5% of the total price retained until the end of the works for any snagging.




    Thank you for your advice in advance.


    K
Page 3
    • arsenalfan1234
    • By arsenalfan1234 14th Jul 17, 3:38 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    arsenalfan1234
    @1080
    Thank you for all your advice and support.


    "Assuming the kitchen is itself an earlier extension then technically if your proposed extension is joined to that at all (even allowing for the bathroom to be omitted) you might have problems as it will become a wrap around extension and not PD. But sometimes the Planners let that go as I don't think they understand the rules themselves half the time."
    The kitchen is an earlier extension from the previous owner. I spoke to the council duty planner last week and he advised me that if you want to build the lounge only then make sure your brickwork build does not touch the walls of the kitchen. And as you alluded to, he also mentioned that it would become part of the extension, i.e a wrap around extension. Do you think if I submit a separate application for planning permission for the area behind the kitchen for a bathroom, it is likely to be approved, or shall I just bite the bullet and create an error at the back of the 6m extended lounge for a shower, toilet and basin?
    I just don't know what I would do with that void space behind the kitchen then!
    • teneighty
    • By teneighty 14th Jul 17, 4:00 PM
    • 1,132 Posts
    • 814 Thanks
    teneighty
    Rather than tying yourself up in knots and compromising on what you really want just to try and get it under permitted development maybe you should just put in a planning application. For the sake of the application fee of 172 it's surely worth a go.

    Of course that assumes that the extension does not contravene local planning guidance.
    • the_r_sole
    • By the_r_sole 15th Jul 17, 8:32 AM
    • 2,461 Posts
    • 1,298 Thanks
    the_r_sole
    That's a lot of standard building regs notes for a planning drawing!
    (I forget how lax the English regs are for uvalues on extensions and full cavity fill etc - can't remember the last time I detailed walls like that! And watch out for thermalite block in specs...)

    Anyway, as suggested, get the extension design you want and then worry about which permission is required, no point in trying to comply with pd if you can't get what you want.
    • krmach
    • By krmach 1st Feb 18, 8:59 AM
    • 28 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    krmach
    Sorry for using the same thread for my issue but I am in the same predicament as the OP with regard to paying a deposit to the builder.

    We've received planning approval for a single storey extension for our semi-detached bungalow. We have approached 5 builders and received quotations from 3. The quotes didn't vary much so we decided on this one builder, we checked his work and interviewed his previous clients.

    He's a busy builder so he can only start the build in July and he's asking for a 5% deposit to secure our dates in his diary. The build cost is close to 100k including VAT, so we have to pay him circa 5k.

    I understand that home owners can change their minds even if they've committed to the build and leave the builders out of work in the process but I also want protection for my money. I'm looking at an escrow account or any builder deposit protection scheme that's reliable. Anyone has experience on this, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 1st Feb 18, 9:16 AM
    • 4,230 Posts
    • 2,741 Thanks
    Furts
    Sorry for using the same thread for my issue but I am in the same predicament as the OP with regard to paying a deposit to the builder.

    We've received planning approval for a single storey extension for our semi-detached bungalow. We have approached 5 builders and received quotations from 3. The quotes didn't vary much so we decided on this one builder, we checked his work and interviewed his previous clients.

    He's a busy builder so he can only start the build in July and he's asking for a 5% deposit to secure our dates in his diary. The build cost is close to 100k including VAT, so we have to pay him circa 5k.

    I understand that home owners can change their minds even if they've committed to the build and leave the builders out of work in the process but I also want protection for my money. I'm looking at an escrow account or any builder deposit protection scheme that's reliable. Anyone has experience on this, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
    Originally posted by krmach
    Going off topic slightly, but to many folks your situation is unusual. 100000 for a single storey extension to a semi bungalow is a huge amount of money, and would not be common.

    You say you have Planning, but this is almost an irrelevance in the grand scheme of things. With 100k of work you need Full Plans Buildings Regulations, a Specification, possibly working drawings, probably a Structural Engineer for the roof design, and a Contract. You may also need professional help, be this a Clerk Of Works or whatever. Yet you mention none of these and only refer to Planning.

    Obviously if you do not have all this then no builder can accurately price your work. Also there is no way you can be in control, and you risk being taken advantage of.

    Come back to Forum folks with all the confirmations on my points. Otherwise alarm bells are ringing.
    • krmach
    • By krmach 1st Feb 18, 9:31 AM
    • 28 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    krmach
    Thanks Furts, apologies if I missed those information. We have all those you mentioned, we had an architectural designer who prepared the working drawings and specs, applied and received building regs approval, though structural engineer still to come back with their calculations. In all the three quotes we've received, the builders said they have factored in the costs of the lintels and support beams as they can clearly see where it needs to go and what type based on the specifications. It's a 67sqm extension with a mezzanine and the quote includes VAT, about 1492/sqm. We're based in the North East.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 1st Feb 18, 9:48 AM
    • 4,230 Posts
    • 2,741 Thanks
    Furts
    Thanks Furts, apologies if I missed those information. We have all those you mentioned, we had an architectural designer who prepared the working drawings and specs, applied and received building regs approval, though structural engineer still to come back with their calculations. In all the three quotes we've received, the builders said they have factored in the costs of the lintels and support beams as they can clearly see where it needs to go and what type based on the specifications. It's a 67sqm extension with a mezzanine and the quote includes VAT, about 1492/sqm. We're based in the North East.
    Originally posted by krmach
    You might say trivia, but to get Building Regs and not have roof calculations is concerning. Something you need to pursue.

    All round that is going to be a Grand Designs type build project. Well done, and I wish you well.
    • krmach
    • By krmach 1st Feb 18, 10:04 AM
    • 28 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    krmach
    I'm not sure about it being Grand Designs though it looks very good in the drawings. It's now down to the builders to make it happen but it's very difficult to simply give away money without any insurance to protect us if things go awry.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 1st Feb 18, 10:56 AM
    • 25,017 Posts
    • 68,500 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    You are going to have to trust them to keep your house standing in a few months. In the grand scheme, with a 5/6 month delay to fit you in, I don!!!8217;t think 5,000 is unreasonable to hold your date. We turn down work left right and centre and there are long delays before we can book anything in. Perhaps you can negotiate that amount downwards - maybe 3,000?

    Once they start, they!!!8217;ll be extending you the credit line. Trust does go both ways, people forget that when they!!!8217;re spending money but builders also dedicate time and stick their necks on the line for clients too.

    Clearly you need an invoice stating that the Money is a holding deposit to maintain their next space for you.

    If you think they might go bump for 5,000 though, then you need to look at a different builder now! 5,000 isn!!!8217;t actually much when you!!!8217;re used to working on 100k jobs. You need more in the bank as a slush fund.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • LandyAndy
    • By LandyAndy 1st Feb 18, 11:55 AM
    • 24,266 Posts
    • 51,249 Thanks
    LandyAndy
    Since when has ' become !!!8217; ?
    • Furts
    • By Furts 1st Feb 18, 12:24 PM
    • 4,230 Posts
    • 2,741 Thanks
    Furts
    I'm not sure about it being Grand Designs though it looks very good in the drawings. It's now down to the builders to make it happen but it's very difficult to simply give away money without any insurance to protect us if things go awry.
    Originally posted by krmach
    It is a risk, but that is the real world. You are dealing with property law now and not consumer law, or view it as playing with the big boys and girls now. 5k is not huge relative to a 100k project. Painful it may be, but your mindset should be this is covered by your contingency fund.

    Think of Carillion, and then you can see that even the big firms can go under. It happens and if this happens to you there is nothing you can do about matters, unless you first get tipped off. But even then you would need dialogue with the builder to refund your deposit.

    You have to go with your gut instinct and any vibes you get about the builder's financial standing.
    • teneighty
    • By teneighty 1st Feb 18, 12:44 PM
    • 1,132 Posts
    • 814 Thanks
    teneighty
    Deposit protection insurance is available but I have never used it so have no idea how much it costs.

    See if you can pay by credit/Visa card. Some builders accept them ask your builder.

    Some trade associations offer deposit protection schemes, ask if your builder is a member of one.

    Personally I've never paid a deposit unless for specialist materials that are being made to order. If you have a good building contract in place the builder shouldn't need to take a deposit but builders seem to not trust written contracts...I wonder why?
    Last edited by teneighty; 01-02-2018 at 12:49 PM.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 1st Feb 18, 1:24 PM
    • 25,017 Posts
    • 68,500 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    Since when has ' become !!!8217; ?
    Originally posted by LandyAndy
    As of yesterday afternoon, when I can't revolve my phone to access the 'edit' button and MSE randomly decides not to post - like the post after my last one apologising.

    Im on my laptop now. I wonder if I have apostrophes.

    EDIT: I do. Something to do with my phone!
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Mutton Geoff
    • By Mutton Geoff 1st Feb 18, 7:21 PM
    • 1,130 Posts
    • 1,224 Thanks
    Mutton Geoff
    For my last big project, prior to starting I did a credit check on the builder using www.ccssolutions.co.uk (no connection, just happy customer). I got an 11 page report with recommended credit limits etc which cost me 25 plus VAT.


    I didn't need to pay anything up front since the builder had just had a big job postponed and could fit me in sooner.
    Compensations/Refunds from Banks & Institutions - 4,165 | Stooz Profits - 7,636 | Quidco - 4,014

    All with a big thank you to Martin and MSE.com from Mutton Geoff!
    • krmach
    • By krmach 9th Feb 18, 8:42 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    krmach
    Just a quick update on this. After a lot of back and forth between myself and builder regarding deposit. The builder eventually offered that I pay 1/3 of the deposit and the rest nearer the build as the insurance backed guarantee covers only 90 days. So I'm very happy I stood my ground. I was prepared to walk away and start the tender process all over again but thankfully didn't have to do it. I'm fine paying a deposit but I also need protection for my money and that's the bottom line.

    Thanks to everyone who replied, really helpful advice.
    • PhilE
    • By PhilE 10th Feb 18, 11:56 AM
    • 304 Posts
    • 189 Thanks
    PhilE
    Bob is talking nonsense. Don't go with him, you'll probably have more problems to come.

    We're all telling you this for a reason. Drop him.
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