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  • FIRST POST
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 21st Jun 17, 8:28 AM
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    House Martin
    Cleats. Are they worth the stress?
    • #1
    • 21st Jun 17, 8:28 AM
    Cleats. Are they worth the stress? 21st Jun 17 at 8:28 AM
    i ve been trying out Shimano cleats on my last few rides but have found they are not worth the trouble and serve IMO very little benefit and add the dangers of broken collarbones when toppling off the bike locked in like a prisoner when some sort of emergency stop crops up as it surely will. Having to do an unnatural twisting motion on the foot requires brainwork when you at least likely to be thinking of it. Leisure cyclists , as most of us are, do not need the possibly slightly more efficient pedalling motion
    After researching advice from the acknowledged expert on the subject ,Dr Jeff Broker , its clear and obvious that there is absolutely no benefit from locking into the pedals and trying to exert an upstroke. The added power from exerting on upstroke is clearly a myth and is exploited by manufacturers to sell the unwary or impressional, items they do not ever need.
    The feet do not move around on the pedals neither so the ridiculous claims that they do are also discounted.
    I don t even think we need a bike computer dominating the handlebar with all sorts of spurious info which is nt needed. Possibly trip mileage only is useful, everything else..not needed..and detracts from enjoying the countryside instead of gawping down at the screen to see if you are averaging 15 mph or whatever. They spoil the run. I want to be enjoying the countryside and hearing and looking at Yellow Hammers on the hedgerows and Skylarks etc rather than careering around trying to keep up average speed. May just as well stay at home on a Turbo Trainer . Anyone who normally cycles in towns must be sick to death of constantly unlocking one of the feet to avoid looking a complete berk toppling off and heading for A and E..
    I m back to very lightweight flat pedals now and can relax and can enjoy the ride..good riddance clips and special shoes .. They are good for the ski slopes and cycle racing only. I m going to use a nice pair of very breathable leather slip ons
    Last edited by House Martin; 22-05-2018 at 10:09 AM.
Page 3
    • brat
    • By brat 17th May 18, 1:19 AM
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    brat
    This link proves you completely wrong about your imagined "upstroke " nonsense. It suggests its even has a negative effect.
    Originally posted by House Martin
    It "proves" nothing. Indeed, if you care to read the research your link refers to, it does indicate that mechanical effectiveness is increased by incorporating the upstroke, but at a slight loss of mechanical efficiency. The other linked research suggests that inefficiency may be as a consequence of lack of familiarity with that method in the test cyclists.
    The best cyclists, or the strongest ones are the professionals
    Originally posted by House Martin
    Can you offer your view on why ALL these professionals use clipless pedals? Are they and their coaches all being conned?
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 17th May 18, 1:28 PM
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    House Martin
    It "proves" nothing. Indeed, if you care to read the research your link refers to, it does indicate that mechanical effectiveness is increased by incorporating the upstroke, but at a slight loss of mechanical efficiency. The other linked research suggests that inefficiency may be as a consequence of lack of familiarity with that method in the test cyclists.
    Can you offer your view on why ALL these professionals use clipless pedals? Are they and their coaches all being conned?
    Originally posted by brat
    You can see from my posts that I have always thought that being locked into the pedals is quite suitable for professional cyclists, and club cyclists given the extreme effort they are imparting into the pedal action .
    Even a local club time trial I saw last month the cyclists were really giving it everything buzzing along at around 30 mph !
    I think we have established that imparting, or imagining you are imparting , extra pedaling action by pulling up on the fraction of the circle that can allow an upstroke , say 9 pm to 11.30 pm is a complete myth
    I would think that at least 80% of cyclists I see around the country lanes I cycle round are just like me, leisure cyclists only, with an eye to keeping fit and it is this group I have suggested do not need or benefit whatsoever from cleats and locking into the pedals. .
    like you, I feel "at one " with my bike all the time,sans cleats, clips special shoes. On my usual 20 miler yesterday evening my feet were planted firmly on the pedals throughout the pedal stroke and never moved around by one millimetre at any time as I poodled along at around 15 mph.
    . I cannot ever remember my feet ever slipping off any pedals at any time and that is after a lifetime of cycling including continental long distance cycle tours of thousands of miles
    • brat
    • By brat 17th May 18, 4:56 PM
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    brat
    I think we have established that imparting, or imagining you are imparting , extra pedaling action by pulling up on the fraction of the circle that can allow an upstroke , say 9 pm to 11.30 pm is a complete myth
    Originally posted by House Martin
    No, you have brainwashed yourself into believing that. The simple physics state otherwise.

    Put simply, we all have an upstroke, whether we use clipless or not. At its simplest passive level it means our downstroke power is not also having to push the weight of the upstroke leg against gravity. The inefficiency of that action can never be transferred as power assist to the downstroke unless you are clipped in. This alone is a good enough reason for pros and amateur racers and decent club riders to use clipless over flats.

    But it offers more than that. It is a tool in the box that is not available to the unclipped rider, offering supporting wattage for power surges or fatigue relief on long steady inclines. Not just that, as soon as I got used to clipless, I was completely sold on them, they made my cycling feel much more efficient and more effective. These were only basic SPDs at the time which I was given from a mate, so I don't think you can argue I was conned into buying them.
    The only reason not to have them is if you don't get on with them, or if you are constantly on and off the pedals. Even then, my short daily commute requires me to stop up to 10 times in about 4 miles. I use my lightly loaded speedplays on my CX for the commute, and they're excellent. Flats would be OK too, but I cba changing them over constantly.
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • esuhl
    • By esuhl 17th May 18, 10:20 PM
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    esuhl
    I cannot ever remember my feet ever slipping off any pedals at any time and that is after a lifetime of cycling including continental long distance cycle tours of thousands of miles
    Originally posted by House Martin

    And you think cotton is better than synthetic fibres, having ridden such distances?!


    For what it's worth, I'm perfectly happy with flat pedals too. I like the fact that you can move your foot about, and ride in any shoes.


    But there are obviously benefits to both systems, and most people who have actually tried clipless pedals seem to like them.


    Why even care what someone else uses on their bike?
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th May 18, 10:06 AM
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    Nasqueron
    You can see from my posts that I have always thought that being locked into the pedals is quite suitable for professional cyclists, and club cyclists given the extreme effort they are imparting into the pedal action .
    Even a local club time trial I saw last month the cyclists were really giving it everything buzzing along at around 30 mph !
    I think we have established that imparting, or imagining you are imparting , extra pedaling action by pulling up on the fraction of the circle that can allow an upstroke , say 9 pm to 11.30 pm is a complete myth
    I would think that at least 80% of cyclists I see around the country lanes I cycle round are just like me, leisure cyclists only, with an eye to keeping fit and it is this group I have suggested do not need or benefit whatsoever from cleats and locking into the pedals. .
    like you, I feel "at one " with my bike all the time,sans cleats, clips special shoes. On my usual 20 miler yesterday evening my feet were planted firmly on the pedals throughout the pedal stroke and never moved around by one millimetre at any time as I poodled along at around 15 mph.
    . I cannot ever remember my feet ever slipping off any pedals at any time and that is after a lifetime of cycling including continental long distance cycle tours of thousands of miles
    Originally posted by House Martin
    And how much did you pay for those pedals and shoes out of interest?

    You're also either missing the point being made about clipless or deliberately ignoring it by focusing all on power, clipless offers other significant gains for cyclists who use them - feet cannot move, better position for knee health etc. I frankly do not believe you have never had feet slip off pedals nor remain in optimal position in thousands of miles, it simply isn't possible because a flat pedal has no ability to keep your foot on the pedal if you hit a bump, basic physics proves your feet can come off the pedal
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 18th May 18, 11:35 AM
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    silverwhistle
    Boys, boys, it's horses for courses innit?


    I've never used clips and it would be overkill for my 3 mile trip to the shops or pub or football training or yesterday to some local fishing with fly rod and gear. I've a S/H man's bike from my neighbour, a Claude Butler Cotswold on which, with a bit of un-ladylike swearing I've replaced the chain and rear gubbins and put on Schwalbes . Bikes for me have always been handy transport with a bit of exercise thrown in .


    I'd have to agree that for skiing, sailing, footie or anything with heavy sweating cotton is out.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th May 18, 2:28 PM
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    Nasqueron
    Boys, boys, it's horses for courses innit?


    I've never used clips and it would be overkill for my 3 mile trip to the shops or pub or football training or yesterday to some local fishing with fly rod and gear. I've a S/H man's bike from my neighbour, a Claude Butler Cotswold on which, with a bit of un-ladylike swearing I've replaced the chain and rear gubbins and put on Schwalbes . Bikes for me have always been handy transport with a bit of exercise thrown in .


    I'd have to agree that for skiing, sailing, footie or anything with heavy sweating cotton is out.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    It's personal preference yes though I use them on a 6 mile commute, the issue has gone off that into whether flats or cleats are better for different situations
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 18th May 18, 3:30 PM
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    House Martin
    Seems like my little comment on whether or not cleats and locking oneself into the pedal has been a point of contention for years. My initial experience seems to be correct despite Brat and a few others having their opinions .
    The best and most useful opinion on the subject come from Dr Jeff Broker who has dedicated a decade of research into the art of pedalling.He comments in this link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/10840824/How-to-cycle-with-the-technique-of-a-pro.html

    "Pulling up on the pedal does NOT increase maximal power output and in fact causes injury "

    As for the foot bouncing around on the pedal on bumpy ground..utter rubbish.The roads nowadays are quite potholed and my 23 mm tyres have 110 lb of pressure in them and are as hard as concrete and certainly the bike bumps around a lot but my feet don`t budge one millimetre on either bumpy or smooth ground.They stay firmly on the flats and always have done.Must be gravity having a say in my feet maintaining close contact with my flats. I m beginning to think you don t have any experience of cycling and are just a wummer Nasqueron. Bikes don t launch themselves into the air on bumpy ground . .The tyres remain in contact with the ground and the frame absorbs the bumps with smaller vibrations transmitted into the handlebars which are well padded.

    So that is the end of my discussion where the worlds expert on the subject , Dr Jeff Broker has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that wasting money on pedals that lock onto expensive shoes with built in cleats in order to pull on the upstroke is wrong . He has spent 10 years on his research and must know what he is talking about.

    Cleats may be OK for people who are cycling hard and fast but I have seen the pros feet come out of the pedals and Mark Cavendish i think it was, come a real cropper on a sprint when his foot came out of the pedal and he crashed badly.

    Just because that leisure cyclists have believed the spin and copied the pros it does n t mean anything except that they have been well and truly conned . They copy them like sheep donning wrap around sunglasses and wearing ludicrous lycra making themselves a laughing stock with their fat legs . That was Bradley wiggins who said that actually about fat people in lycra.

    .Spin and conning and snake oil salesmen exist in every hobby.
    Another hobby of mine is HiFi which is awash with con artists where they try and tell you that cables and connectors make a huge difference to the sound ...they don t ! HiFi is the worst of the lot for spin !

    Pack your flawed technique in Brat, you re going to injure yourself in the long run.
    None of the Pro s mess about yanking on the upstroke, they are just imparting more power on the downstroke in equal measures with both legs because they are incredibly fit compared to you.
    Concentrate on building more power in the big muscles used only on the downstroke and follow the good advice of Dr Jeff Broker
    Last edited by House Martin; 19-05-2018 at 1:00 PM.
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 18th May 18, 3:50 PM
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    Nasqueron
    Seems like my little comment on whether or not cleats and locking oneself into the pedal has been a point of contention for years. My initial experience seems to be correct despite Brat and a few others having their opinions .
    The best and most useful opinion on the subject come from Dr Jeff Broker who has dedicated a decade of research into the art of pedalling.He comments in this link https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/recreational-cycling/10840824/How-to-cycle-with-the-technique-of-a-pro.html

    "Pulling up on the pedal does NOT increase maximal power output and in fact causes injury "
    As for the foot bouncing around on the pedal on bumpy ground..utter rubbish. My feet don`t budge one millimetre on either bumpy or smooth ground.They stay put ! and always have done.
    So that is the end of my discussion where the worlds expert on the subject Dr Jeff Broker has proved beyond a shadow of doubt that wasting money on pedals that lock onto expensive shoes with built in cleats is a total waste of money.
    Just because that leisure cyclists have believed the spin and copied the pros it does n t mean anything except that they have been well and truly conned .Spin and conning and snake oil salesmen exist in every hobby.
    Another hobby of mine is HiFi which is awash with con artists where they try and tell you that cables and connectors make a huge difference to the sound ...they don t !
    Pack your flawed technique in Brat, you re going to injure yourself in the long run.None of the Pro s mess about yanking on the upstroke, they are just imparting more power on the downstroke in equal measures with both legs because they are incredibly fit compared to you
    Originally posted by House Martin
    So in essence, you happily admit to confirmation bias, which is to say, you found a newspaper article that says what you want it to say, that is your proof and you have no interest in reading peer reviewed journal articles that contradict you.

    I find it amusing you are apparently an authority to determine who is the leading expert in a field studied by hundreds of people around the world. Or rather, again confirmation bias, a scientist who says what you want to hear MUST be that leading authority.

    Moreover, you continue this myth that clipless pedals and shoes are expensive whereas you can get the pedal for 20 and shoes from 27.99! I wonder how much your pedals and shoes cost

    The best part is the fact you deny basic physics, when you hit a bump and go up, your foot and body go up, unless you're using some sort of anti-gravity shoes lol.

    Edit

    Even better, reading the article, it says precisely NOTHING that supports your claim that clipless are bad or a waste of money, simply that one guy thinks a pull up effect doesn't work!

    Genius, you don't even read your own source beyond finding a bit that supports what you want to believe
    Last edited by Nasqueron; 18-05-2018 at 3:57 PM.
    • brat
    • By brat 18th May 18, 8:55 PM
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    brat
    We seem to be debating a petulant child.

    Since jumping in on this debate I have ridden 140 miles in the last three days, and I've been thinking about my upstroke, and when and how I use it. The Broker science shows that accommodating the upstroke as part of regular riding is inefficient. This is disputed by very reputable training programmes such as TrainerRoad who passionately believe in not only the upstroke, but a 360 degree power input. https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201894264-Drills-Efficiency-Strength-Power. FWIW, I'm not a fan of developing a 360 degree technique, I agree with Broker that it is inefficient, but different people with different training methods, weight, size, leg length etc may disagree.

    I climbed Shap on Wednesday, and I naturally discovered that on the steady 7% parts of the climb I used upstroke to allow a little extra recovery time for my downstroke muscles. I also used it more when out of the saddle pushing high wattage, perhaps to crest a small hill without dropping a gear.

    I do enjoy watching the GCN videos. They have aired their view on the clipless pedal debate taken out of Broker's lab and put into the real world. They're pretty sure of the overall benefits of clipless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMCYYNTWUY

    Upstroke (just one part of the benefits of clipless) is in essence useful as a short turbo boost. But their other benefits are indisputable for those who enjoy them. For hobby/training/ leisure rides I personally can see absolutely no reason not to use clipless. Yes, I paid over 350 for my shoe/pedal combo, but I'm sad, and, for me, appearance matters!. My first combo were 60 for shoes and pedals, so cost is not an issue.

    As with everything in life and hobbies, it's down to personal preference. House Martin, you don't communicate in a way that I would be tempted to take counsel from, so your tantrummy point of view is ignored.
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 18th May 18, 9:17 PM
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    House Martin
    We seem to be debating a petulant child.

    Since jumping in on this debate I have ridden 140 miles in the last three days, and I've been thinking about my upstroke, and when and how I use it. The Broker science shows that accommodating the upstroke as part of regular riding is inefficient. This is disputed by very reputable training programmes such as TrainerRoad who passionately believe in not only the upstroke, but a 360 degree power input. https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201894264-Drills-Efficiency-Strength-Power. FWIW, I'm not a fan of developing a 360 degree technique, I agree with Broker that it is inefficient, but different people with different training methods, weight, size, leg length etc may disagree.

    I climbed Shap on Wednesday, and I naturally discovered that on the steady 7% parts of the climb I used upstroke to allow a little extra recovery time for my downstroke muscles. I also used it more when out of the saddle pushing high wattage, perhaps to crest a small hill without dropping a gear.

    I do enjoy watching the GCN videos. They have aired their view on the clipless pedal debate taken out of Broker's lab and put into the real world. They're pretty sure of the overall benefits of clipless. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMCYYNTWUY

    Upstroke (just one part of the benefits of clipless) is in essence useful as a short turbo boost. But their other benefits are indisputable for those who enjoy them. For hobby/training/ leisure rides I personally can see absolutely no reason not to use clipless. Yes, I paid over 350 for my shoe/pedal combo, but I'm sad, and, for me, appearance matters!. My first combo were 60 for shoes and pedals, so cost is not an issue.

    As with everything in life and hobbies, it's down to personal preference. House Martin, you don't communicate in a way that I would be tempted to take counsel from, so your tantrummy point of view is ignored.
    Originally posted by brat
    I can do without the insults brat , where are my tantrums and petulence ? you are losing your argument resorting to insults .. Maybe you being a Police Officer has given you an attitude that you do not like to be questioned in what you say . I hope you don t go around with that attitude on the streets of the UK on a Saturday night , the drunks won t like it
    • brat
    • By brat 18th May 18, 9:44 PM
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    brat
    I can do without the insults brat , where are my tantrums and petulence ? you are losing your argument resorting to insults .. Maybe you being a Police Officer has given you an attitude that you do not like to be questioned in what you say . I hope you don t go around with that attitude on the streets of the UK on a Saturday night , the drunks won t like it
    Originally posted by House Martin
    I was baiting to see if your barbs were directed at me. And it seems they were. Can I ask why?
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 19th May 18, 9:35 AM
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    silverwhistle
    Tell him you haven't got a TV licence (ibid this forum) as well as using cleats and watch his head implode. :-)
    • Barny1979
    • By Barny1979 19th May 18, 11:25 AM
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    Barny1979
    Are cleats beneficial for Spinning classes?
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 19th May 18, 12:07 PM
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    jack_pott
    you can get the pedal for 20 and shoes from 27.99
    Originally posted by Nasqueron
    Assuming that the 27.99 shoes fit. When I considered giving clipless a try, I gave up, having never found a pair of shoes that fit. Most of the shoes I saw were about twice the price of the Stead & Simpson's Hobos I used to use, and I had spent nearly the price of those on postage returning unsuitable shoes.

    Therein lies the point, the market for cycle shoes is absolutely tiny compared with that for ordinary shoes, and the prospect of finding a pair that fit correspondingly smaller too. I don't have anything against trying clipless*, I just CBA with finding a pair.

    (*Except that my toeclips enable me to use any shoes I like.)
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 19th May 18, 5:47 PM
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    Nasqueron
    Assuming that the 27.99 shoes fit. When I considered giving clipless a try, I gave up, having never found a pair of shoes that fit. Most of the shoes I saw were about twice the price of the Stead & Simpson's Hobos I used to use, and I had spent nearly the price of those on postage returning unsuitable shoes.

    Therein lies the point, the market for cycle shoes is absolutely tiny compared with that for ordinary shoes, and the prospect of finding a pair that fit correspondingly smaller too. I don't have anything against trying clipless*, I just CBA with finding a pair.

    (*Except that my toeclips enable me to use any shoes I like.)
    Originally posted by jack_pott

    As I posted way back I bought a pair of wide fit clipless for 56, I have trouble getting shoes to fit as my feet are wide so often have to go 1-2 sizes up even for trainers, yet these fit great. A good pair of proper MTB shoes from someone like Five Ten or Specialized or even Adidas are upwards of 100. Of course you could wear 10 cheapo shoes but they aren't designed for this purpose.


    Your second point is total nonsense, Evans stock 129 different spd/spd-sl bike shoes, 77 of which are under 100 and 13 under 50 from 15 brands for Men alone. Wiggle stock over 300 shoes, 142 in the "road" category, 49 pairs are under 100 from 13 different brands (some overlap with Evans) and that's 2 stores. Lake, Tredz, CRC (while it's still operating at arms length from wiggle), Cycle Store, Ribble, Sports Direct etc etc all stock them
    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 19th May 18, 5:49 PM
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    Nasqueron
    Are cleats beneficial for Spinning classes?
    Originally posted by Barny1979

    If you get the right pair they can be though I'd be inclined to not want my foot fixing in without knowing the bike was completely set up correctly for me. I've only ever done it with the toe clip in, you spin so fast that even the magic shoes owned by people on here which never lose contact with the pedal are liable to fall off
    • esuhl
    • By esuhl 19th May 18, 11:44 PM
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    esuhl
    Your second point is total nonsense, Evans stock 129 different spd/spd-sl bike shoes, 77 of which are under 100 and 13 under 50 from 15 brands for Men alone. Wiggle stock over 300 shoes, 142 in the "road" category, 49 pairs are under 100 from 13 different brands (some overlap with Evans) and that's 2 stores. Lake, Tredz, CRC (while it's still operating at arms length from wiggle), Cycle Store, Ribble, Sports Direct etc etc all stock them
    Originally posted by Nasqueron

    Personally, I'd never buy shoes without trying them on first. And there aren't any shops with a decent selection of bike shoes anywhere nearby.



    Of the 20-ish pairs on display, most are for road cycling, most of the rest are over 150, and of the one or two remaining pairs, they either don't fit or don't have my size in stock.


    I gave up looking and got some Wellgo B143 flat pedals. They suit me perfectly. They have a large flat (rather than concave) contact area, and the pins give decent grip on all types of shoe without shredding them (or my shins when I bash them).


    Also, you can fit reflectors to them, making them road-legal (not that I'd care if I was going clipless, of course!)



    Now, if I had a second bike, or was riding just for pleasure, I'd definitely look at clipless.


    Horses for courses.
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 20th May 18, 11:29 PM
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    parking_question_chap
    Latest footage from House Martin and brats debate.


    • Nasqueron
    • By Nasqueron 21st May 18, 9:35 AM
    • 5,465 Posts
    • 3,366 Thanks
    Nasqueron
    Personally, I'd never buy shoes without trying them on first. And there aren't any shops with a decent selection of bike shoes anywhere nearby.



    Of the 20-ish pairs on display, most are for road cycling, most of the rest are over 150, and of the one or two remaining pairs, they either don't fit or don't have my size in stock.


    I gave up looking and got some Wellgo B143 flat pedals. They suit me perfectly. They have a large flat (rather than concave) contact area, and the pins give decent grip on all types of shoe without shredding them (or my shins when I bash them).


    Also, you can fit reflectors to them, making them road-legal (not that I'd care if I was going clipless, of course!)



    Now, if I had a second bike, or was riding just for pleasure, I'd definitely look at clipless.


    Horses for courses.
    Originally posted by esuhl
    All the big retailers online that I have used offer free returns if things don't fit, it's easy enough therefore to order a few pairs and try them. I find it helps to read customer reviews on the site particularly to see common issues. I have also ordered in shoes to Evans to try on, kept the pair that fitted, refund on the rest
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