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  • FIRST POST
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 30th May 17, 10:53 AM
    • 147Posts
    • 34Thanks
    jrc123
    Fine after 30seconds
    • #1
    • 30th May 17, 10:53 AM
    Fine after 30seconds 30th May 17 at 10:53 AM
    Dear Members
    Sorry if this has been answered before.

    I drove down a public road which PCM Ltd operate.


    I drove down the road stopped with my car running got out to read the sign which says no parking. I then turned around to see someone taking a photo of my car.

    I told them i am not parking and now moving and drove off. All this happening in a space of 30seconds which are also shown on the images on the PCM website.

    When i received the fine i stupidly appealed saying I had to pull over as i was unwell to take something out of my boot and the car was running. Still also in the 30 second time frame.

    My appeal was rejected what can i do now?
    thanks for the help
    Last edited by jrc123; 20-07-2018 at 10:50 AM.
Page 14
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 20th Jul 18, 4:07 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    also should I wait for the claimant to send there WS to me first so I can counter argue?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 20th Jul 18, 4:51 PM
    • 3,001 Posts
    • 5,048 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    also should I wait for the claimant to send there WS to me first so I can counter argue?
    You can but you risk having your WS struck out for not following a court order. And as law is a two-way street, if they don't send theirs on time, then you can apply to have their WS struck out.

    But facts are facts and you have time to compare yours and theirs and produce your arguments. That is what the 14 days gap is for.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 20th Jul 18, 4:56 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    ah so I can still argue their WS in court? and break down the points I disagree on?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 20th Jul 18, 5:29 PM
    • 3,001 Posts
    • 5,048 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Yes. In fact that is what the judge wants you to do so he can have the minimum of decisions to make.

    Each point has to be argued on evidence or balance of probabilities (51%). Judges are not mind readers so make sure you have all your defence points into one of those two categories.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 23rd Jul 18, 9:24 AM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    thanks IamEmanrescu

    Has anyone has a chance to see if I should anything else on my WS?
    going to send this off today

    thanks
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Jul 18, 10:40 AM
    • 2,273 Posts
    • 3,793 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    are these costs ok:

    In the County Court at XXX

    Claim No.: XXX

    Between
    XXX
    (Claimant)
    -v-
    XXX
    (Defendant)

    DEFENDANT'S SCHEDULE OF COSTS

    Ordinary Costs

    Loss of earnings/leave, incurred through attendance at Court 13/08/2017 90.00 take a pay slip to court to evidence this
    Tube travel from home address to Court 12.10
    Sub-total 102.10 ======

    Further costs for Claimant's unreasonable behaviour, pursuant to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14(2)(g)

    Research, preparation and drafting of documents (10 hours at Litigant in Person rate of 19.00 per hour) 190.00
    split these 10 hours up between each documents.
    You can claim for reading the C's documents and court documents eg Orders, as well as drafting.
    Split each hour up into parts - lawyers do 10 units of 6 minutes, you may find 5 minute units easier, it's up to you, but explain at the top how each hour is broken down:
    So:
    Orders x2 received from court: 3 units
    Claim form: 2 units
    Draft Acknowledgement of Service: 1 unit
    Draft defence, including research into court rules re timetable and into law of contract: x units
    Draft Witness Statement, including research: x units
    Compiling documents to exhibit to WS and for Defendant's bundle: x units
    Reading Claimant's Statement: x units
    Preparation for court, Skeleton argument: x units
    Drafting Schedule of costs: x units
    Site visit (if you made one): x units
    Correspondence with Claimant: x letters at x units
    Correspondence with court: x letters at x units [if any]


    Stationery, printing, photocopying and postage (would help if you could split this up - eg how many pages copied/printed and how much per page? How many letters/documents posted and at what cost?): 15.00

    Sub-total 205.00 ======

    307.10 TOTAL COSTS CLAIMED

    are these right?
    Originally posted by jrc123
    Comments above for you - the more you break this down the better. Have a look at the one Sassii did, they won 1,500 in costs!
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 23rd Jul 18, 10:42 AM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    Noted on that LoadsofChildren123.

    was the WS ok? thanks for all your points
    going to send off today

    then wait for the claimants WS so i can do a skeleton arguement.

    thanks
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Jul 18, 12:56 PM
    • 2,273 Posts
    • 3,793 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    hi I have my updated WS is this ok?

    Claim No. xxx
    In the Matter of:
    xxx Limited (Claimant)
    -v-
    xxx (Defendant)
    ___________________________________
    Witness Statement
    ___________________________________

    I, [name], of [address], WILL SAY as follows:


    1. I am the defendant in this matter and am a litigant in person.

    1. On 12th May 2017, I drove through xxx. and had to pull over for a short period of time. As I entered xxx there was no sign at the entrance and nothing to distinguish it as private land or that it was subject to parking controls (see photograph at page 4 of 10, labelled Exhibit xx-01).

    2. I had to pull over [you say for a short period of time, why? Did you for instance want to make a call? Were you early for a meeting and had a few minutes to kill?] I saw a suitable spot to park, but I could see a sign on the metal railings and so I pulled over and got out of the car to go and read it before deciding whether or not to park there. The sign was quite small and there was no way I could read it from my car. As I got out to go and read it, I left my car engine running and the driver's door open, and this can clearly be seen in photographs taken by the Claimant's operative (through pages 5-7 of 10, photographs labelled Exhibit xx-05,xx-06, xx-07).

    3. I walked over to the sign and read it. I could see immediately that it was about parking and I wanted to see if I could or could not park there (e.g. if I could pay and display, or pay online, or whether I needed a permit). When I read the sign, I realised that I could not pay to park there and so I turned to walk back to my car, intending to leave immediately. It was then that I noticed a person taking photographs of me. I assumed this person was employed by the parking company and so I shouted over to him that I'd just read the sign and was leaving.

    4. The Claimant's own evidence in the form of photographs taken at the time, which it sent to me at my request, confirms what I have said above. It shows that I was there for 2 minutes and 10 seconds. This was the time it took me to pull over, put the car into parking mode, get out, walk over to the sign, read it, walk back to the car and drive off. It is clear that 2 minutes and 10 seconds does not constitute "parking" in any sense of the word.

    I understand that in order to be able to obtain keeper details from the DVLA a private parking company like the Claimant must be a member of one of two ATAs [say what this stands for, is it Accredited Trade Association?]. This Claimant is a member of IPC (International Parking Community). A condition of such membership is that members must comply with a compulsory Code of Practice. Point 15 of that Code says -
    The International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice code of conduct states
    that a grace period (15.1 & 15.2) must be allowed in order that a driver might spot signage, go up to it, read it and then decide whether to accept the terms or not.


    The actual wording of the code is this:
    (15.1) Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site. [I've just moved this to here from below]


    The grace period has two specific purposes: it gives a driver time prior to parking, in order to decide whether or not to accept the terms offered and to enter into a contract to park (precisely what 15.1 of the Code of Practice provides for), and/or it gives a driver time to leave a site at the end of any period of parking (which is provided for in paragraph 15.2 of the Code of Practice). It is therefore accepted by the Claimant's own ATA not inconceivable that once a driver enters a site, they may choose not to proceed to park once they have read the terms and conditions. For instance, the terms and conditions may prohibit parking, or the driver may realise they cannot comply with the terms offered (eg they do not have enough money to pay and display a ticket, or they may not qualify for a permit). Put simply, a driver has to be given the opportunity to read the terms offered and to decide whether or not to accept them.


    A reasonable grace period in any car parking area would be the time it would take to look for any sign, to stop the car and go over to the sign to read and understand what it says, and then to return to the car and either park or drive away: this process took me precisely 2 minutes and 10 seconds, as the Claimant's own evidence shows. In fact, the British Parking Association (the other industry ATA) recommends a grace period of 10 minutes, which should be taken as a guide to what is reasonable.


    The Claimant's failure to observe any grace period at all in this case is in direct breach of its compulsory industry code of practice.


    The grace period is important because no contract can be in place by conduct until a reasonable period elapses, during which the offeree has had the opportunity to find out and consider the terms being offered and to decide whether or not to accept them. In this case, once I had read the terms I decided not to accept them and I drove off, all within the space of 130 seconds.


    (15.2) Drivers should be allowed a sufficient amount of time to leave a site after a pre-paid or permitted period of parking has expired.

    It is clear that the grace period is meant for a driver to have time after entering a site to find a parking space, to leave, and to read the signage on display.

    5. On this occasion, once I had Having read the terms offered, I decided not to accept them, and I left the site immediately. I did not park, I did not receive any benefit of parking, I simply stopped momentarily to decide whether or not I could or should park there and decided not to. The Claimant's own photographs confirm that this is all that happened (through pages 8-10 of 10, photographs labelled xx-05. xx-06 and xx-07).

    6. I was surprised to then receive a charge through the post. I appealed it immediately. I found the Claimant's letter quite threatening - it mentioned suing me for the money if I didn't pay, and the consequences of a CCJ. I panicked and, foolishly, I said in the appeal that I had pulled over because I felt sick. I said this because I panicked, and I thought that this would be more convincing. I am not an educated person and I did not understand then what I understand now about how parking contracts are formed, and about the requirement on the Claimant to comply with IPC Code of Practice (specifically by applying a grace period). Had I, back then, done all the research I have now done, I would have known that there was no contract and the attempt to obtain money from me was baseless, and I would have appealed on the basis that I had not "parked" and I had not accepted any terms and conditions because, once I had read them I decided not to remain there. The fact remains that whatever I said in my appeal, I was only on the site for 130 seconds and the Claimant's own photographs show me exiting the car to read the signage and then getting back in to drive away.

    7. I also did not realise then, but realise now that the land is subject to Railway Byelaws, therefore this is not a claim to be brought by the Parking Control Management (PCM) Ltd but by the Train Operating Company which leases the land/or the landowner and the correct procedure is for such proceedings to be pursued in the magistrate!!!8217;s court, not the county court.
    The claimant's claim should be struck out because any claim of breach of byelaws is a matter for Magistrates' court, and if the claimant is suggesting that they can run contract law alongside byelaws on 'non-relevant land' (as defined in the POFA) then it is a fact that a registered keeper/driver cannot be held liable in law, in any case.

    The IPC Code of Conduct 9.1 states; It is your (PCM Ltd) responsibility to establish whether any land upon which you operate is subject to any Byelaws. Where land is subject to Byelaws you must ensure that your practices are in accordance with them or, alternatively, that you operate a scheme that is not prohibited by them. PCM have broken this code as stated in the points above.

    8. The Claimants are known to be serial issuers of generic claims similar to this one. I believe the term for such behaviour is roboclaims and as such is against the public interest. This Claim should never have been brought and this should have been obvious to the Claimant from its own photographs and from what its operative witnessed on the day.

    9. I also dispute that the Claimant has incurred 50 Legal representative's costs to pursue an alleged 100 debt, the costs of which are in any case not recoverable.

    10. The claimant described the charge of 50 as 'legal fees' not 'contractual costs', CPR.14 does not permit these to be recoverable in the Small Claims Court.

    11. The Claimant has at no time provided an explanation how the sum has been calculated, the conduct that gave rise to it or how the amount has climbed from 100 to xxx. This is the epitome of a typical robo-claim emanating from what MPs described recently as an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18) industry.

    12. Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd is not the lawful occupier of the land. I have reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no rights to bring this case.

    13. Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd is not the landowner and is merely an agent acting on behalf of the landowner and has failed to demonstrate their legal standing to form a contract.

    14. The Claimant is put to proof that it has sufficient interest in the land or that there are specific terms in its contract to bring an action on its own behalf. As a third party agent, the Claimant may not pursue any charge. I have reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no right to bring action regarding this claim.


    STATEMENT of TRUTH
    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true
    Dated the xxxxxx
    Signed: xxx (Defendant)
    Originally posted by jrc123


    Have made some changes.
    I don't focus on byelaws cases, so that bit may require some work and some comment from someone else.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 30th Jul 18, 2:18 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    hi all,

    today is D-day so far the claimant hasn't :

    *Paid the court fee 25
    *Sent me their witness statement

    They have by 4pm to do both.

    If they dont do either then it's struck out?
    If they pay but dont send me the WS then I can email the court to say this? what would i say?

    Any advise is much appreciated.

    thanks
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 31st Jul 18, 12:54 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    can anyone help?

    I have emailed the court to through this claim out now

    anything else i should do?
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 31st Jul 18, 1:44 PM
    • 2,997 Posts
    • 1,869 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    You could try phoning the court and asking if the court fee has been paid and, if not, has the case been struck out. Meantime, keep up with what you have to do, i.e. don't miss any deadlines.
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 31st Jul 18, 1:53 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    will do thanks for the help Le_Kirk
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 31st Jul 18, 2:28 PM
    • 3,115 Posts
    • 3,834 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Indeed, an emai llikely wont be read, and you cant get it thrown out - youd have to make an application
    A call might find that its stuck in a backlog somewhere
    Make sure it is clear YOU have not got a copy of their WS
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 10th Aug 18, 10:22 AM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    morning all

    So the claimant haven't paid the final 25 of the court trial fee so it may get struck out. It is meant to be Monday.

    I have emailed the court many times to get them to do this but they are not the best at confirming this in clear writing.

    Whilst I chase up

    I wanted to write up my skeleton argument - but how can I write this if I haven't got the claimants Witness Statement?


    What should I do?

    thanks
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Aug 18, 1:23 PM
    • 2,273 Posts
    • 3,793 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Call the court up once more this afternoon and ask if the hearing is still in the list for Monday.


    If it is, you have only one option, which is to turn up. Do a Skeleton and take it with you, and the costs schedule (see below).

    If it isn't, you have two options
    1. Accept that the matter is at an end, but email the court (and put in your email subject heading "urgent: hearing at x o'clock on Monday 14 August") to confirm that you have been told the hearing fee has not been paid and that the hearing is not in Monday's list.
    2. Tell the court that you want 5 minutes before the judge on Monday to argue costs and because the court cannot confirm to you that the matter has been struck out.

    I'd choose option 2 personally.

    Skeleton can be very very short:

    Current status of claim

    x date: Order for service of witness evidence and documents by x date, order for payment of hearing fee by y date.
    x date: C does not serve witness statement/documents. D does.
    x date: C does not pay hearing fee. According to para x of order of x date, claim should be struck out.
    x date: D telephones court and is told hearing fee not paid but cannot confirm that the matter has been or will be struck out.
    x date: D telephones court again and is told the same
    x date: D telephones court again and is told the same
    10 August: D telephones court and is told..... (eg that hearing is still going ahead, or that hearing has been vacated but claim not struck out).


    Defendant's case


    D admits that he was driving on the relevant date, and that he drove onto the relevant land.
    D denies that any contract was formed between him and C pursuant to which C can pursue him for a charge because he did not accept any offer made by C.


    The facts: D drove onto the relevant land intending to park there. He noticed signs, which were too small to read from his vehicle. He pulled over at the nearest sign, left his car engine running and his car door open and walked over to read it. When he did so, he realised he could not park without incurring a charge. He immediately returned to his car and drove away. He was stopped for a total period of 130 seconds. The entire episode was observed by the C's operative, who took timed photographs of D leaving, and returning to, his car (see photographs at exhibit x of D's witness statement, provided to him by C in the pre-action phase).


    D therefore did not accept the terms offered (if they were capable of amounting to a contractual offer).


    C subscribes to a compulsory industry Code of Practice which obliges it to apply a "grace period" to the start of any period of "parking" and the purpose of this is to allow drivers to read the terms and conditions offered. The period of 130 seconds is clearly within such a grace period.


    The claim has no basis and should be struck out.


    Costs


    D should be awarded his costs pursuant to Rule 27.14(2)(g), due to the C's unreasonable conduct.


    The C has behaved unreasonably in the following ways:
    1. It has been clear from the outset that D did not accept any contractual terms offered, C's own operative observed him stopping only to read the sign. [if you wrote to them about it, also include this: D also drew this to C's attention as early as [x date - date when you first told them]
    2. The obligatory grace period required by its Code of Practice should have been applied
    3. It must have been clear to C from the outset that no contract can have been entered into and this claim should never have been brought
    4. Alternatively, C should have withdrawn its claim at an early stage. At no time did C bother to inform D or the court of a withdrawal. Instead, it has simply failed to file its evidence or to pay the hearing fee. In contrast, D has gone to significant efforts to comply with all orders and to draft and file his defence and evidence on time - he is a litigant in person and English is not his native language [is it?] and defending it has taken him a considerable time and caused him significant inconvenience.


    The court is asked to dismiss the claim and make an order for costs in the amount set out in the costs schedule attached.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Aug 18, 1:26 PM
    • 2,273 Posts
    • 3,793 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    If you get there on Monday and are told there is no hearing, explain that you were told on Friday afternoon the hearing was going ahead, hand in your Skeleton and ask for 5 minutes before the judge.


    Then go before the judge and ask him if he will read your skeleton, or does he want you to take him through it (or her!). Do whatever the judge decides - if he wants you to take him through it, essentially you can just read it out but add some embellishments if you want.


    Skim over the fact that you actually said at first that you were ill.


    If the judge notices that you said two conflicting things he is very unlikely to give you costs.


    You're unlikely to get costs anyway, but it's worth a shot. Get that costs schedule done!
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 10th Aug 18, 1:38 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    HI LOC

    I called the court and they said it wont be listed for a hearing as it's struck out.

    Should I go up there or not still?

    I want to argue my costs for everything - all the time it took me.

    What shall I do?

    thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Aug 18, 1:45 PM
    • 8,683 Posts
    • 8,599 Thanks
    KeithP
    What shall I do?
    Originally posted by jrc123
    It's really very simple - re-read post #275.
    .
    • jrc123
    • By jrc123 10th Aug 18, 2:08 PM
    • 147 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    jrc123
    it has now been struck out I just got off the phone from the court.

    What can I do to put on file incase they re-do it all over again?!

    Any advice?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Aug 18, 4:11 PM
    • 2,273 Posts
    • 3,793 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    If you want to go for your costs, it's option 2 in post 275.
    Call the court NOW and ask for 5 minutes before the judge on costs on Monday morning.
    Leave the skeleton as I've drafted it, but include
    10 August: D informed when he telephoned the court that the claim has been struck out.


    Then leave the rest in.


    You'd just be going to argue for your costs. You must do the costs schedule.


    You may decide now it's over that you don't want to bother, that's up to you.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
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