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    • busby3000
    • By busby3000 24th Apr 17, 11:00 AM
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    NPS letter before action
    • #1
    • 24th Apr 17, 11:00 AM
    NPS letter before action 24th Apr 17 at 11:00 AM
    This relates to 2 tickets received end of 2015 (consecutive days). We stupidly (before becoming more educated here) admitted to the fact that the driver was the same as the keeper and entered into email correspondence. Our defence was that we had paid (by phone, showed call log and bank statement showing payment made to Whoosh. They say we must have paid another car park. Unfortunately we did not keep the confirmatory text on payment and could not recover it. I also pointed out that one of the tickets did not show a clear picture of the ticket on the windscreen (there was only one ticket on return to the car). I also note that they are not POFA compliant in missing off the paragraph re 28 day keeper liability on one of the NTKs.

    Anyway, after writing as NPS, HFM and DCBL up to May 2016 they have now sent an LBA (from NPS acting on behalf of NPS) and gone back to original £200. They do not appear to be compliant with the Practice Direction required. their letter was dated 10 April and received 18 April.

    What do I reply? Below is rough copy of their letter

    (address at top - NPS)

    "Re: Letter before action
    NPS v ******

    I act on behalf of Northern Parking Services (North East) and write to inform you that I am instructed to commence legal proceedings on behalf of the company.

    I understand you are indebted to the company for the sum of £200 and this consists of the following Parking Charge Notice by the vehicle registration *****

    (then encloses details of 2 consecutive dates, place and amount)

    Payment of this debt is now overdue and unless payment is received within the next 7 days I will initiate legal proceedings against you without further notice to you.

    The commencement of proceedings will involve additional expense of payment of interest & legal costs

    (para re possible CCJs etc)

    Yours sincerely

    Last edited by busby3000; 24-04-2017 at 11:28 AM. Reason: spelling
Page 2
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 11th May 17, 3:24 PM
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    So you did have a confirmation email that said you'd paid for a different car park?

    Unless you are in Skipton, which has been forever marred for PPCs by Lamilad, the judge usually starts from the position that the PPC is an honest company just going about its business. You then have to show that they have wrongly ticketed you, often with a judge who starts of leaning towards their case.

    Your case is you had paid. But you accept you paid the wrong company - you made an honest mistake which you didn't notice at the time and the payment was therefore paid by the 3rd party collection agency (Whoosh) to a different car park owner. You were notified of the mistake by the text and an email as well, but you didn't read either properly, or at all, at the time.

    The mistake only came to light when you got back to the car to find the ticket.

    So the PPC is so far pretty blameless. Apart from the fact that their rubbish machine wasn't working and their alternative payment method was difficult to use and prone to error (this is your real chance of success here I think)

    Whoosh should obviously get your money back from the other people and let this PPC have it (some reference is made to the possibility of doing that in earlier posts). Common sense dictates that if that is done, the PPC has suffered no loss and they should accept your honest mistake and just take the original payment.

    However, courts are not about common sense, or morals. They apply the law. There is a chance you'd get through on the reasonable endeavours argument coupled with the broken machine/rubbish Whoosh process prone to errors (but they would say the error should have been known to you because you were sent not only a text but also an email).

    I am troubled by the text and email and that, reasonably, you should have realised your mistake. Yes you have things like bad lighting and weather to back up your reasonable endeavours argument so it's not hopeless. But there's a chance you might not succeed.

    Just being realistic.

    We were discussing a few posts back the fact that if you are known to be the driver, POFA is irrelevant. You asked this:

    So admitting the driver means I can't use non adherance to POFA?
    The answer to that is you can't, because the whole point of POFA is to make keepers liable. They don't need to do that if the driver is identified.

    How about the fact there was only one ticket on the car, not 2? And their photos do not show a clear ticket on the windscreen for one of the days (they claim 2 tickets issued) and they took 74 days to send the NTK?

    Sorry, I'm not following. Were there 2 mistakes with Whoosh and 2 parking events? 2 different reasons why you were ticketed?

    If you were not given a windscreen ticket, then POFA DOES apply, at least initially - paragraph 9. You have to be sent a NtK within 14 days. They are clearly out of time. HOWEVER, I think that if you then identify the driver, which you have done, they can then just sue you as driver and never mind POFA and so you've lost that argument. I do not think that if they failed to comply with the para 9 time limit for sending out the NtK then they have lost the ability to sue you as driver. Had you not outed yourself as driver, you would be able to argue POFA hadn't been complied with but it's too late now unfortunately.
    • busby3000
    • By busby3000 12th May 17, 1:14 PM
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    Thank you Coupon-Mad and Loadsofchildren for your replies. All useful.

    Sorry, perhaps I didn't make it clear - there was just a text to confirm, no email. I don't think it was read, just the notification that it had been sent.

    The copy of the email conversation between NPS & Whoosh (confirming which car park was paid for) was on the back of the latest letter from NPS.

    There were 2 windscreen tickets allegedly issued for consecutive days according to the NTKs.

    Ticket 1 - issued 20/11/15, NTK 23/12/15, no windscreen ticket
    Ticket 2 - issued 21/11/15, NTK 4/2/16, windscreen ticket

    The photos they took do not show a windscreen ticket for the 1st day, although it is referred to in the NTK. Because of this, I thought it was just the one ticket until they started asking for £200

    Yes - I only started googling on here after admitting who the driver was I should perhaps say it was my daughter who was driving, not me! I'd learnt a lot more about the process by the time I got my own ticket last year, and got some good advice from Coupon-Mad on how to reply.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 12th May 17, 4:36 PM
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    Did you park there on both days or do you think they have made a mistake?

    Presumably the "Whoosh defence" doesn't apply to both. You need to work out what happened on the other day. 2 PCNs perhaps weakens the reasonable endeavours/system not fit for purpose defence.

    Have you worked out which one is which?

    Thanks for clarifying re the email/text. So would the text have said the carpark or just "thanks for paying £x for your parking" or something generic like that?
    • busby3000
    • By busby3000 12th May 17, 5:10 PM
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    I don't know what the text would have said. Unfortunately they don't have a phone number. I could always pay to park somewhere with them and see I guess!!

    Yes, she parked both days. she paid on the 19th at 6.30 and tickets issued the 21st and 22nd so for 2 consecutive days.

    Yes I know which is which for the 1 windscreen ticket issued, the 2 NTKs and the pics they took
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 15th May 17, 10:31 AM
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    So on one occasion you say it was paid for but there was a mistake, what about the second occasion? I'm confused!

    Does the email correspondence between Whoosh and the PPC help you see where the mistake was made/what it was? Eg does it give the code for each carpark, and you made an error in one digit? If there was one wrong digit this points to it being your error. If the codes are completely different for each car park this indicates that it is a system error. If you haven't got this information, either write yourself to Whoosh and ask them these questions or ask the PPC. If you decide the latter, I wouldn't engage with them now, wait and see if they are going to take this further.
    • busby3000
    • By busby3000 15th May 17, 12:58 PM
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    Sorry if I'm not being clear...she arrived at the car park 6.30pm on the 19th and paid till the 21st. The NTKs were issued on the 20th & 21st. One windscreen ticket was found on return to the car dated 21st.

    The email from Whoosh to NPS just gives the name of the car park paid for (Wilson Patten Street), along with the reg number of the car, date & time. There is no code

    The only way I could contact them, which I did twice via there online contact us form - no phone number. I sent this but they did not reply:

    "Sent to Whoosh 2/2/2016

    Hi, I paid by phone to park in Newcastle (NPS) on 19 November 2015 6.35pm (as detailed on my phone bill) to Tel no. 08444 480418. I was debited by yourselves on 21 November for£18.20 (as detailed on my bank statement) I received a ticket for non payment and unfortunately had deleted the SMS. Is there any way you can verify that I have paid?

    Many thanks"

    I have just looked at the Whoosh website and found the code for Wilson Patten St - 10070. Unfortunately they do not seem to be managing the Scottish Life Car park in Newcastle so there is no code. However I'm sure I've seen another thread on here re someone who is also having problems for the same car park so will google.

    I am tempted also to suggest to NPS that with the info they have finally managed to get from Whoosh, that along with their photographic evidence showing the the car was actually parked in Newcastle, they could get their money from them. They could obviously have got this info back in 2015 if it was so easy for them to communicate with Whoosh

    I don't know if this is also relevant - I just found on another thread that the machines do not work between 6pm and 8am when it is free to park. Which is why she had to pay via Whoosh, not because the machine was broken.

    I have also checked the NPS photographic evidence for the 2 tickets issued. There is a pic of the meter and a pic of the T&C notice. No mention of not being able to pay 6pm-8am and no pic of any pay by Whoosh details which would have shown the code (there would have course have been one, they just didn't take a pic of it). I also love how they have taken a pic of the front windscreen on one of the days with no sticker ticket on it!
    Last edited by busby3000; 15-05-2017 at 1:35 PM. Reason: More info
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 16th May 17, 10:04 AM
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    So my understanding is:

    Driver paid for parking in Wilson Patten St (code 10070), but actually parked in Scottish Life Car Park (code unknown). The reason for the payment going against the other car park is unknown. You are currently assuming driver error but don't know this.

    Driver had paid for 2 days parking, not realising it had gone to the wrong car park. So then got 2 tickets, one on each day.

    I think it's worth finding out the code for the SL Car park. If it's completely different then you have a stronger argument of system error as opposed to driver error.

    i also think you need to find out one way or another what info the text would have given (eg name of car park).

    You also need to have a look at the signage in that car park. How small was the bit of the sign that said to pay Whoosh if machine out of operation? Was it almost impossible for the driver to see the code correctly and does that explain why the mistake was made? I don't think it matters that the machine doesn't work during certain hours of free parking, as long as there is an alternative method of payment.

    If this is simple driver error, there will be sympathy for the driver, but if the signs are contractual then the court is likely to find in the PPC's favour. That leaves your two arguments of "reasonable endeavours" and the Whoosh system was unfit for purpose - and these two could go either way.

    On the 2 tickets issue you could argue that this is the same parking event and there should only be 1 ticket. If it's innocent driver error on the code, if the court feels a bit sorry for the driver and their innocent mistake, I think the court will be better disposed towards the Defendant.

    Is it the driver being pursued here or the RK?

    Not sure what you mean by "Unfortunately they do not seem to be managing the Scottish Life Car park" and whether this is significant.... do you mean Whoosh or NCP?
    • busby3000
    • By busby3000 16th May 17, 7:48 PM
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    Thanks for that. Yes, I am trying to find the code for the car park. I have found one online - a current one, which is totally different to the Wilson Patton one. However although NPS still seem to be managing it, you can't pay via Whoosh as it is not showing up on their website, so I guess a different company is managing online payments now.

    I don't know about the signage. As I said, the pics they took showed the machine and the Pay & Display sign. There would have been another with details of payment to Whoosh, but not shown.

    I will try to find out what text confirmations from Whoosh show

    I wondered about the one event thing.

    Yes the driver is the RK. We have admitted to this.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 17th May 17, 12:22 PM
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    However although NPS still seem to be managing it, you can't pay via Whoosh as it is not showing up on their website, so I guess a different company is managing online payments now.
    Originally posted by busby3000
    That's interesting. If this hots up, you can point that out and say it must have been because there were so many errors with the system....
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th May 17, 12:34 PM
    • 2,296 Posts
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    If you are local to that area have a word with the Valley Junction restaurant close by. They've gone a couple of rounds with NPS in the local courts so might have an insight on that car park for you.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • busby3000
    • By busby3000 17th May 17, 6:56 PM
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    • 7 Thanks
    My other daughter is at Newcastle Uni. I'll try to get her to check out the car park. Now that Whoosh have (conveniently) given me Whoosh contact emails this might help, rather than filling in an online contact form.

    I could also get her to ask at the Valley Junction restaurant
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