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  • FIRST POST
    • sourcrates
    • By sourcrates 26th Mar 17, 12:20 PM
    • 14,330Posts
    • 13,528Thanks
    sourcrates
    DMP Mutual Support Thread - Part 12
    • #1
    • 26th Mar 17, 12:20 PM
    DMP Mutual Support Thread - Part 12 26th Mar 17 at 12:20 PM
    Welcome to the DMP mutual support thread Part 12 !!

    Here you can find help in starting and running your DMP, self managed, Stepchange, Payplan and any other DMP all welcome here, but we do encourage you to use a free service, not one you pay for.

    There is help on getting interest and charges stopped, how to start with an emergency fund, defaults, token payments and lots more.

    If you are in a DMP or thinking of one, this is the place to be. We are non judgmental and all questions are welcome.

    Again the old thread was getting a tad long, so time for a new one.

    The old thread can be found here :

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5285089

    Once again, i think the original "newbie" post by sazzie23 still rings true.
    Last edited by sourcrates; 26-03-2017 at 12:50 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Debt-Free Wannabe, Credit File And Ratings, and
    Bankruptcy And Living With It, boards. "I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly".
    Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an abusive or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com. Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    For free debt advice, contact either : Stepchange, National Debtline, or, CAB.
    For Free Legal advice see : http://legalbeagles.info/
Page 139
    • selinek
    • By selinek 5th Feb 18, 5:57 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    selinek
    1st credit are debt purchasers, and prior to FSA enforcement action, (or OFT as it was then) were one of the worst offenders for flouting fair debt collection rules.

    However, that was then, this is now, they are under threat of suspension of their consumer credit licence if they go back to their old ways, so they should treat you in a fair and business like way, if they dont, use the complaints Channels available to you, dont accept any carp off them.

    If you need help, PM me, I love dealing with them.

    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100402132045/http://www.oft.gov.uk/news/press/2009/20-09
    Originally posted by sourcrates

    This is why I love this site. Where else would we find out about companies like 1st. Credit. They are one on my creditors. Hoping to negotiate a F&F on the back of another UE Agreement
    • braveheart6612
    • By braveheart6612 5th Feb 18, 6:23 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    braveheart6612
    Hi there looking for some advice

    I have a Barclaycard opened in 2013 it has a balance of £10k. It's now defaulted and with Link.
    I have sent them CCA request in Sept 2017 and today they have now sent me terms and conditions but it does t look like the original. So I thought it might be a reconstituted agreement but there's no credit limit, the interest rate is different from original and on the bottom of the form it states 14062014 I'm assuming the last time the terms and conditions were updated. I this enforceable???
    • ploppy57
    • By ploppy57 5th Feb 18, 6:34 PM
    • 723 Posts
    • 4,656 Thanks
    ploppy57
    Hi there looking for some advice

    I have a Barclaycard opened in 2013 it has a balance of £10k. It's now defaulted and with Link.
    I have sent them CCA request in Sept 2017 and today they have now sent me terms and conditions but it does t look like the original. So I thought it might be a reconstituted agreement but there's no credit limit, the interest rate is different from original and on the bottom of the form it states 14062014 I'm assuming the last time the terms and conditions were updated. I this enforceable???
    Originally posted by braveheart6612
    Watching this with interest. We have just sent off 3 CCA's to Link, for old BC debts.
    DMP March '15 £57,549. Now £44,226. 23% paid. Went SM Feb '18 to get DF sooner.
    Emergency fund #231... £1000.
    Christmas '18 challenge... £22 /£300
    "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow, Shining at the end of every day"
    • Puzzcat
    • By Puzzcat 5th Feb 18, 7:35 PM
    • 3,230 Posts
    • 16,393 Thanks
    Puzzcat
    Hi there looking for some advice

    I have a Barclaycard opened in 2013 it has a balance of £10k. It's now defaulted and with Link.
    I have sent them CCA request in Sept 2017 and today they have now sent me terms and conditions but it does t look like the original. So I thought it might be a reconstituted agreement but there's no credit limit, the interest rate is different from original and on the bottom of the form it states 14062014 I'm assuming the last time the terms and conditions were updated. I this enforceable???
    Originally posted by braveheart6612
    [QUOTE=ploppy57;73835077]Watching this with interest. We have just sent off 3 CCA's to Link, for old BC debts.[/

    You should post on all about debt, they can check agreements for you. You do have to pay to join fully if you want to access their letters to challenge cca's.

    Puzz.
    Christmas 2018 £300 cash/£74 vouchers
    I love my dmp started in Nov 13 with SC. Self Managed 2016 54% done
    £60062/27234.92 - 12068k UE
    Pot Of Gold - £530.00
    MY DIARY -
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4768685
    • LadyMorticia
    • By LadyMorticia 5th Feb 18, 8:04 PM
    • 19,129 Posts
    • 86,663 Thanks
    LadyMorticia
    Hey guys.

    A little update from me.

    Wrote "write off" request letters to all my creditors and supplied medical evidence at the suggestion of my GP and psychiatrist and also asked said creditors to accept a £1 token payment for the forseeable future if this is not possible and I will update them if my circumstances change.

    NCO Resolve have marked both my Littlewoods and Very accounts as "closed" on their system. I'm not sure if this means they have accepted my request or referred the debts back to Littlewoods and Very. I haven't had any communication from them.

    Cabot who are managing my Aqua account have accepted my token payment offer, as have CCS and Arvato. CCS and Arvato have sent me letters with their standing order details but I only found out that Cabot had accepted by looking online on my account and seeing my payment schedule.

    So far, not had any problems at all! Hoping to save up as much as possible to be able to offer F&F settlement figures at some point.
    January wins: *4 piece bamboo towel bale* *Winter Wonderland break*
    Win £2018 in £2018: £816.26/£2018
    • FoolishGirl77
    • By FoolishGirl77 6th Feb 18, 10:47 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    FoolishGirl77
    Brief update
    Hello all, no news on DMP front but too early for the creditors to have replied to my letters suspending payments and providing updated balance info to aid my review.

    Just posting to say thanks again for all the support and to let you know Iím now 3 days over but no baby yet. Will try to keep posting!

    For anyone reading this who have not taken the plunge I would just say this, read the thread and take the advice - itís all very very good. Most importantly if youíre reading this you are proabably already living in fear of creditors and youíre ability to pay them so you have nothing to lose at all by taking steps to take back control so donít delay.

    For what itís worth, from my perspective and experience as someone who jumped straight in with a fee paying company and no emergency fund and consequently wasted 18 months and god knows how much in fees that could have gone towards the debts - a self managed DMP (if a DMP is the appropriate solution for you) is without doubt the best financial decision I have ever, ever made.

    • kram
    • By kram 6th Feb 18, 12:02 PM
    • 111 Posts
    • 98 Thanks
    kram
    Should of issued you with a "notice of assignment" letter.

    Just a technical breach if they didn't, and you can always request one from them.
    Originally posted by sourcrates
    Called tesco who said the notice of assignment letter is in the post as they had only just sold the the debt to 1st credit at the end of january.
    • selinek
    • By selinek 6th Feb 18, 12:58 PM
    • 49 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    selinek
    Hello all, no news on DMP front but too early for the creditors to have replied to my letters suspending payments and providing updated balance info to aid my review.

    Just posting to say thanks again for all the support and to let you know Iím now 3 days over but no baby yet. Will try to keep posting!

    For anyone reading this who have not taken the plunge I would just say this, read the thread and take the advice - itís all very very good. Most importantly if youíre reading this you are proabably already living in fear of creditors and youíre ability to pay them so you have nothing to lose at all by taking steps to take back control so donít delay.

    For what itís worth, from my perspective and experience as someone who jumped straight in with a fee paying company and no emergency fund and consequently wasted 18 months and god knows how much in fees that could have gone towards the debts - a self managed DMP (if a DMP is the appropriate solution for you) is without doubt the best financial decision I have ever, ever made.

    Originally posted by FoolishGirl77
    I agree with you... trust all goes well with the new arrival
    • IANB77
    • By IANB77 7th Feb 18, 8:22 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    IANB77
    DMP Newbie
    Ok so finally i have taken the plunge after building up 34k of debts which was costing me £1300 a month to service and one viscous cycle.. the tipping point for me was Lloyds new excessive OD charge which increased by £140 a month, Child Maintenance going up by £180 a month and a change in my partners circumstance (thanks Carrilion).

    So there we go i am in my 1st week of SC contacting my suppliers and i got to admit i feel awful, i am a proud man and this has made me feel like a failure to myself and my family . I really am struggling.

    So my creditors are

    Lloyds OD £4000
    Vanquis £3000
    Lloyds Loan £9500
    L/Woods £3900
    Capital one £750
    Lume £450
    Bamboo £10000
    B/Card £4500
    P2P £400

    B/card have already agreed to my payment amount, frozen my interest and accepted the payment.


    Does anybody else have experience with the others and how they will react? Just so worried they wonít accept the offer and keep piling on the cost. Feels like I am sitting on a ticking time bomb!!

    DF estimate 9 Years!!
    • January2015
    • By January2015 7th Feb 18, 9:27 AM
    • 2,092 Posts
    • 5,183 Thanks
    January2015
    [COLOR=black][FONT=Calibri]
    Does anybody else have experience with the others and how they will react? Just so worried they won!!!8217;t accept the offer and keep piling on the cost. Feels like I am sitting on a ticking time bomb!!

    DF estimate 9 Years!!
    Originally posted by IANB77
    Hi and welcome

    My initial advice is don't panic. Regardless of whether creditors accept your offer through SC or not, they will take the monthly payment. They cannot have what you do not have - simple

    The beginning of a DMP is scary, but as you will see from the many of us who are either part way through the DMP journey, or those who have completed it - it really is not a scary process.

    Don't hesitate to ask questions here.
    DFW Nerd No. 1484 LBM 07/01/15 Debt was £95k I'm driving it down
    £1k emergency fund (member #84) £1k/£1k
    [COLOR=Blue][SIZE=2]
    • IANB77
    • By IANB77 7th Feb 18, 9:58 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    IANB77
    Hi and welcome

    My initial advice is don't panic. Regardless of whether creditors accept your offer through SC or not, they will take the monthly payment. They cannot have what you do not have - simple

    The beginning of a DMP is scary, but as you will see from the many of us who are either part way through the DMP journey, or those who have completed it - it really is not a scary process.

    Don't hesitate to ask questions here.
    Originally posted by January2015
    Thank you, i just find it scary. I haven't had my password from SC yet so cant log on to see who has accepted what, only reason i know about BC is because they DM me, got to admit i was surprised at there response.

    I am not bothered about trashing my Credit score at all, just all the rest that goes with it. SC originally suggested an IVA but if i did that my Job would be gone as well.. Hence why i am worried about them not freezing the interest etc... as an IVA would have done that.

    Worst thing is that i just feel like a failure.
    • January2015
    • By January2015 7th Feb 18, 11:40 AM
    • 2,092 Posts
    • 5,183 Thanks
    January2015
    Thank you, i just find it scary. I haven't had my password from SC yet so cant log on to see who has accepted what, only reason i know about BC is because they DM me, got to admit i was surprised at there response.

    I am not bothered about trashing my Credit score at all, just all the rest that goes with it. SC originally suggested an IVA but if i did that my Job would be gone as well.. Hence why i am worried about them not freezing the interest etc... as an IVA would have done that.

    Worst thing is that i just feel like a failure.
    Originally posted by IANB77
    I started my DMP just over 3 years ago and was forecast originally almost 9 years on a DMP. I now owe just under £45k

    From memory of SC, logging in does doesn't show who has accepted or not, it just shows the amount owed, the amount paid and the balance. Others currently on SC plans will correct me if my memory is wrong though

    Regarding freezing of interest, it may not happen immediately, it is a battle with some creditors and a breeze with others. There doesn't even seem to be any rhyme or reason as one creditor will freeze interest for one of us and perhaps not for another. We each have our own battles to fight. However, you can and will come to be able to fight your battles with your creditors. I've had hundreds and hundreds of pounds of interest refunded, I've had defaults backdated. Arm yourself with knowledge and enter the strategy game that is DMP

    I can honestly say that I have come to enjoy my DMP. That sounds so weird, but I think you find many, many of the lovely people on this DMP Mutual Support Thread will say the same thing. And believe me, it doesn't take long to come to that place in your head where you feel you've made the right decision and there is light at the end of the tunnel - albeit that tunnel feels very long at the moment, it's amazing how quickly you begin to move through it.

    I look forward to getting to know you and support you through your journey

    Edit: By the way, you are far from a failure. You have not run from your debts, you are dealing with the problem and moving forward with life. If you are a failure because of your debts, then there are flipping hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country.... er make that millions probably.... Start being positive and acknowledge that whilst you have debt it will no longer increase and you are moving towards a point in your life where you know you will be debt free

    Edited .... again Carbootcrazy was right... I did mean to put SC doesn't show if creditors have accepted DMP or not.
    Last edited by January2015; 07-02-2018 at 12:30 PM.
    DFW Nerd No. 1484 LBM 07/01/15 Debt was £95k I'm driving it down
    £1k emergency fund (member #84) £1k/£1k
    [COLOR=Blue][SIZE=2]
    • ploppy57
    • By ploppy57 7th Feb 18, 12:07 PM
    • 723 Posts
    • 4,656 Thanks
    ploppy57
    Ok so finally i have taken the plunge after building up 34k of debts which was costing me £1300 a month to service and one viscous cycle.. the tipping point for me was Lloyds new excessive OD charge which increased by £140 a month, Child Maintenance going up by £180 a month and a change in my partners circumstance (thanks Carrilion).

    So there we go i am in my 1st week of SC contacting my suppliers and i got to admit i feel awful, i am a proud man and this has made me feel like a failure to myself and my family . I really am struggling.

    So my creditors are

    Lloyds OD £4000
    Vanquis £3000
    Lloyds Loan £9500
    L/Woods £3900
    Capital one £750
    Lume £450
    Bamboo £10000
    B/Card £4500
    P2P £400

    B/card have already agreed to my payment amount, frozen my interest and accepted the payment.


    Does anybody else have experience with the others and how they will react? Just so worried they wonít accept the offer and keep piling on the cost. Feels like I am sitting on a ticking time bomb!!

    DF estimate 9 Years!!
    Originally posted by IANB77

    Hi and welcome. Don't panic... The start of a DMP can be scary but after a while it will settle down.
    We started our DMP journey at the same time as January, and after 3 years it has just become part of life now and certainly stopped us having sleepless nights.

    We also had debts with BC and although they accepted our payment plan no problem, they did take a while to stop interest and default us, but we got there in the end. Same with Lloyd's, all interest was eventually stopped and they defaulted all accounts.
    Remember a default is actually a good thing when you are on a DMP as it vwill fall off your credit file after 6 years.

    There are so many knowledgeable people on this site to offer advice, so you can ask anything and will always get the right answers.

    Like you, I felt a failure when we first started, but it is actually the creditors who are failing, by not helping us sooner. Now I am proud that in 3 years we have knocked more than 12k off of our debts.
    DMP March '15 £57,549. Now £44,226. 23% paid. Went SM Feb '18 to get DF sooner.
    Emergency fund #231... £1000.
    Christmas '18 challenge... £22 /£300
    "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow, Shining at the end of every day"
    • carbootcrazy
    • By carbootcrazy 7th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    • 4,811 Posts
    • 27,317 Thanks
    carbootcrazy
    From memory of SC, logging in does show who has accepted or not, it just shows the amount owed, the amount paid and the balance. Others currently on SC plans will correct me if my memory is wrong though

    Comments in red are mine (Carbootcrazy's).
    I think this was a typo in January's post, I think she meant 'logging in doesn't show....'

    I agree with everything else she wrote in her whole post


    Regarding freezing of interest, it may not happen immediately, it is a battle with some creditors and a breeze with others. There doesn't even seem to be any rhyme or reason as one creditor will freeze interest for one of us and perhaps not for another. We each have our own battles to fight. However, you can and will come to be able to fight your battles with your creditors. I've had hundreds and hundreds of pounds of interest refunded, I've had defaults backdated. Arm yourself with knowledge and enter the strategy game that is DMP

    I can honestly say that I have come to enjoy my DMP. That sounds so weird, but I think you find many, many of the lovely people on this DMP Mutual Support Thread will say the same thing. And believe me, it doesn't take long to come to that place in your head where you feel you've made the right decision and there is light at the end of the tunnel - albeit that tunnel feels very long at the moment, it's amazing how quickly you begin to move through it.

    I look forward to getting to know you and support you through your journey

    Edit: By the way, you are far from a failure. You have not run from your debts, you are dealing with the problem and moving forward with life. If you are a failure because of your debts, then there are flipping hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country.... er make that millions probably.... Start being positive and acknowledge that whilst you have debt it will no longer increase and you are moving towards a point in your life where you know you will be debt free
    Originally posted by January2015
    A big welcome to the thread from me too. Any questions or problems along the way please just ask. There's usually someone who has already experienced the same thing or is still doing so. We're always happy to help when we can as we've all been so immensely grateful to the lovely people who generously helped us through the difficult bits.

    Good Luck
    Make £10 A Day Challenge 2018: Jan-May: £1988.00+. June: £315.12


    Original Debt: £56804 (@02/13). Now: £9618
    . Under £10K at long last.
    • January2015
    • By January2015 7th Feb 18, 12:31 PM
    • 2,092 Posts
    • 5,183 Thanks
    January2015
    Thank you CBC - you were right... I did mean to put 'doesn't' in my post above.... edited now!
    DFW Nerd No. 1484 LBM 07/01/15 Debt was £95k I'm driving it down
    £1k emergency fund (member #84) £1k/£1k
    [COLOR=Blue][SIZE=2]
    • Suseka97
    • By Suseka97 7th Feb 18, 1:33 PM
    • 295 Posts
    • 393 Thanks
    Suseka97
    Thank you, i just find it scary. I haven't had my password from SC yet so cant log on to see who has accepted what, only reason i know about BC is because they DM me, got to admit i was surprised at there response. I am not bothered about trashing my Credit score at all, just all the rest that goes with it. SC originally suggested an IVA but if i did that my Job would be gone as well.. Hence why i am worried about them not freezing the interest etc... as an IVA would have done that.
    Worst thing is that i just feel like a failure.
    Originally posted by IANB77
    Hello and welcome IanB

    You already had some great advice from the likes of Jan15 and CBC and as you progress through your DMP you'll find we all stick together on here - regardless of how we landed

    All I wanted to do is to speak to your feelings of failure. You really must to not beat yourself up about the situation. You are where you are and will now - however slowly - work your way back to being debt free and more importantly 'guilt free'.

    I started on my DMP almost 5 years ago with a mahoosive debt (as you'll see in my signature). I was mortified to find myself in that situation and whilst fearful of what being in a DMP might bring to my door I was more ashamed than anything. I'm of a reasonable age and had always made good on my debts, in fact I'd been the perfect borrower - so much so lenders fell over themselves to give me money But of course that was the 'trap' - being able to get so much credit so darn easily.

    Fast forward to the present and I'm nearing the end of my journey and I now feel more in control of my financial future than I ever have. I do not fear the rattle of the letterbox, nor the call on my phone. I feel empowered through the experience and advice given on this forum and through doing hours and hours of online research about debts and debt management. So my only advice to you is read and then read some more.

    Good luck and above all feel proud that you've taken the first step to a new and brighter financial future.

    And herewith ends the sermon.....
    Last edited by Suseka97; 07-02-2018 at 1:43 PM.
    LBM Apr13: 14 Creditors / £85k+ owed
    Self-managed Aug17
    Current Status: 3 UE's and 3 with CCA's pending / £11k o/s
    • IANB77
    • By IANB77 7th Feb 18, 2:00 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    IANB77
    Hello and welcome IanB

    You already had some great advice from the likes of Jan15 and CBC and as you progress through your DMP you'll find we all stick together on here - regardless of how we landed

    All I wanted to do is to speak to your feelings of failure. You really must to not beat yourself up about the situation. You are where you are and will now - however slowly - work your way back to being debt free and more importantly 'guilt free'.

    I started on my DMP almost 5 years ago with a mahoosive debt (as you'll see in my signature). I was mortified to find myself in that situation and whilst fearful of what being in a DMP might bring to my door I was more ashamed than anything. I'm of a reasonable age and had always made good on my debts, in fact I'd been the perfect borrower - so much so lenders fell over themselves to give me money But of course that was the 'trap' - being able to get so much credit so darn easily.

    Fast forward to the present and I'm nearing the end of my journey and I now feel more in control of my financial future than I ever have. I do not fear the rattle of the letterbox, nor the call on my phone. I feel empowered through the experience and advice given on this forum and through doing hours and hours of online research about debts and debt management. So my only advice to you is read and then read some more.

    Good luck and above all feel proud that you've taken the first step to a new and brighter financial future.

    And herewith ends the sermon.....
    Originally posted by Suseka97

    Thank you all for your kind words and support. Brings tears to my eyes... Whatever happens i will do this and like you have never made a late payment or anything before.. perfect history with all my creditors.. I just knew i could do it any longer after Jan and had to take action before it spiraled. It will be a long road to but with support and knowledge i will overcome...
    • January2015
    • By January2015 7th Feb 18, 2:14 PM
    • 2,092 Posts
    • 5,183 Thanks
    January2015
    Thank you all for your kind words and support. Brings tears to my eyes... Whatever happens i will do this and like you have never made a late payment or anything before.. perfect history with all my creditors.. I just knew i could do it any longer after Jan and had to take action before it spiraled. It will be a long road to but with support and knowledge i will overcome...
    Originally posted by IANB77
    Strange things happen in January I was also the perfect customer for loans and credit cards - always paid on time, always struggled and yet they continued to give me more credit

    However, January rolled around just after Christmas (as it quite often does) and I just knew I had to do something to sort the mess. Hence my username. A great reminder for me of exactly when I decided to address the debt mess I was in
    DFW Nerd No. 1484 LBM 07/01/15 Debt was £95k I'm driving it down
    £1k emergency fund (member #84) £1k/£1k
    [COLOR=Blue][SIZE=2]
    • ploppy57
    • By ploppy57 7th Feb 18, 2:37 PM
    • 723 Posts
    • 4,656 Thanks
    ploppy57
    Strange things happen in January I was also the perfect customer for loans and credit cards - always paid on time, always struggled and yet they continued to give me more credit

    However, January rolled around just after Christmas (as it quite often does) and I just knew I had to do something to sort the mess. Hence my username. A great reminder for me of exactly when I decided to address the debt mess I was in
    Originally posted by January2015
    We were the same - always paid on time but just kept taking on more debt and lying to ourselves that it would all be fine.
    Again, it was the new year in 2015 that made us realise we had to get sorted.
    DMP March '15 £57,549. Now £44,226. 23% paid. Went SM Feb '18 to get DF sooner.
    Emergency fund #231... £1000.
    Christmas '18 challenge... £22 /£300
    "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow, Shining at the end of every day"
    • ploppy57
    • By ploppy57 7th Feb 18, 3:03 PM
    • 723 Posts
    • 4,656 Thanks
    ploppy57
    Thank you all for your kind words and support. Brings tears to my eyes... Whatever happens i will do this and like you have never made a late payment or anything before.. perfect history with all my creditors.. I just knew i could do it any longer after Jan and had to take action before it spiraled. It will be a long road to but with support and knowledge i will overcome...
    Originally posted by IANB77
    I think you have the two key words there.....support and knowledge. That is exactly what I got from this group.
    I learned that a default is good.....that the letters that frightened me to death were actually automatically generated and not personally aimed at us...that I didn't have to answer the phone to creditors and could actually just communicate in writing......that we are not the only ones in debt and that everybody on this forum has been through the same. Most important of all it is knowing that whatever your question, you will always get answers and nobody will ever think your question is stupid.
    DMP March '15 £57,549. Now £44,226. 23% paid. Went SM Feb '18 to get DF sooner.
    Emergency fund #231... £1000.
    Christmas '18 challenge... £22 /£300
    "There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow, Shining at the end of every day"
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