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  • FIRST POST
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 6th Mar 17, 7:35 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 9Thanks
    rdjevans17
    Non-POFA parking notices
    • #1
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:35 PM
    Non-POFA parking notices 6th Mar 17 at 7:35 PM
    Hi. I have been issues a parking notice that falls outside of the POFA 2012 guidelines. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, but was not the driver of the vehicle when the parking contravention happened and I do not remember who was driving. There was no on screen ticket and the notice to keeper was sent well after the 14 days limit the POFA 2012 guidelines state it should be sent in. I've pointed this out and was met with this response...

    "I’m afraid that isn’t correct.

    For Non-POFA cases where Registered Keeper refuses/is unable to name the driver:

    “The notice sent to you was what we refer to as a Non-POFA notice. These are notices that do not meet the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore, there is no statutory obligation for you to name the driver. However, it is a misconception that non-POFA notices cannot be used to hold you liable for the outstanding charge. It is our position that there is a rebuttable presumption that you, as registered keeper of the vehicle, were the driver at the time of the parking event and therefore are liable for the charge as incurred. If you can provide evidence to the contrary then we would urge you to do so at this early opportunity.”

    We hope that this information clarifies your position.

    Please advise whether you wish to appeal the charges."

    ...I've had a read through the thread at the top but it makes no mention of a company 'presuming' I was the driver and chasing me for the charge. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with this and if they are actually telling the truth, or if they are trying to scare me into making payment.

    Thanks in advance for your help.

    Bob
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Mar 17, 7:42 PM
    • 20,388 Posts
    • 25,752 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:42 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:42 PM
    they do try to "presume" that the keeper and driver are one and the same , but this does not hold up in law

    so it would be one of your defence points in any appeal or any court case

    see threads like the lamilad thread and parking pranksters blogs

    dont fall for it, and dont name the driver or infer who was driving (if you knew)

    they cannot hold the keeper liable under POFA2012 if they have failed it

    so yes , its scare tactics only , and just because they say its true, it does not make it true

    they are being economical with the truth , or havent a clue

    appeal with the template and follow the advice, depending who it is
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 6th Mar 17, 7:47 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    • #3
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:47 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:47 PM
    Thanks RedX

    Problem is they are an IPC member so don't think any appeal will be worth the time and effort.

    in your eyes, with such an obvious breach of POFA 2012, do you think they will bother taking it to court or just bombard with debt collector letters?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    • 20,388 Posts
    • 25,752 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Mar 17, 7:54 PM
    no idea without you naming the company involved

    an IAS appeal is a waste of time

    yes somebody is going to be issuing debt letters and they wont let POFA2012 put them off

    and yes GLADSTONES may persuade them to issue a court case within 6 years, so they make extra cash either way and they wont care about POFA2012 either

    so assume the worst and plan accordingly

    check the BMPA zendesk to see how many court cases your PPC has issued to date
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 6th Mar 17, 8:11 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    • #5
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:11 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:11 PM
    The PPC in question is District Enforcement Ltd.

    Had a look but can't seem to see any stats about court cases issued?
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 6th Mar 17, 8:59 PM
    • 1,378 Posts
    • 2,822 Thanks
    Lamilad
    • #6
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:59 PM
    • #6
    • 6th Mar 17, 8:59 PM
    The PPC in question is District Enforcement Ltd.

    Had a look but can't seem to see any stats about court cases issued?
    Originally posted by rdjevans17
    DE ltd do take people to court. Difficult to advise further without knowing more about the background - car park, signage etc.

    BMPA advise getting the landowner involved.
    https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/203542872-District-Enforcement-Ltd
    • yotmon
    • By yotmon 6th Mar 17, 11:11 PM
    • 463 Posts
    • 651 Thanks
    yotmon
    • #7
    • 6th Mar 17, 11:11 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Mar 17, 11:11 PM
    Hi.


    “The notice sent to you was what we refer to as a Non-POFA notice. These are notices that do not meet the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore, there is no statutory obligation for you to name the driver.

    We hope that this information clarifies your position.
    Originally posted by rdjevans17
    So, you have it in black and white that they are admitting their NTK does not conform to PoFa, so they cannot hold the keeper responsible for their charges. 1-0 to you so far.

    If they do pursue you, then it can only be as driver. Quite a few cases recently listed on the Pranksters blog showing how this has been woefully painful for the ppc's court rep ! Let's just hope that other judges follow suite.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Mar 17, 12:40 AM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 7th Mar 17, 12:40 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Mar 17, 12:40 AM
    Hi. I have been issues a parking notice that falls outside of the POFA 2012 guidelines. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, but was not the driver of the vehicle when the parking contravention happened and I do not remember who was driving. There was no on screen ticket and the notice to keeper was sent well after the 14 days limit the POFA 2012 guidelines state it should be sent in. I've pointed this out and was met with this response...

    "I’m afraid that isn’t correct.

    For Non-POFA cases where Registered Keeper refuses/is unable to name the driver:

    “The notice sent to you was what we refer to as a Non-POFA notice. These are notices that do not meet the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore, there is no statutory obligation for you to name the driver. However, it is a misconception that non-POFA notices cannot be used to hold you liable for the outstanding charge. It is our position that there is a rebuttable presumption that you, as registered keeper of the vehicle, were the driver at the time of the parking event and therefore are liable for the charge as incurred. If you can provide evidence to the contrary then we would urge you to do so at this early opportunity.”

    We hope that this information clarifies your position.

    Please advise whether you wish to appeal the charges."

    ...I've had a read through the thread at the top but it makes no mention of a company 'presuming' I was the driver and chasing me for the charge. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with this and if they are actually telling the truth, or if they are trying to scare me into making payment.

    Thanks in advance for your help.
    Originally posted by rdjevans17
    It's DE, so just say:

    'I was not the driver so you would fall into error and be wasting you time assuming I was. See you in court, Dyl'.

    Nasty greedy firm, by all accounts from victims, especially the poor students at Staffs Uni. Ex-Police guy thinks he knows it all.

    They CANNOT assume the keeper was the driver with no evidence. He knows that; he hopes you do not. How do such people sleep at night?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 07-03-2017 at 12:42 AM.
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 7th Mar 17, 8:20 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    • #9
    • 7th Mar 17, 8:20 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Mar 17, 8:20 AM
    Thanks all.

    I've emailed off stating that and will let you know their response once received.
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 7th Mar 17, 10:53 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    Reply received is as follows:

    Hello Bob,

    Our position remains the same, unless you advise the driver for each instance, the PCNs will be progressed as normal.

    The option to appeal the charges remains; please provide details of your appeal together with any information you are required to provide, should you wish to transfer liability.

    Regards

    DE Appeals
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Mar 17, 11:10 AM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,469 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would reply:

    Dear Dyl,

    And my position remains the same and I have told you I was not the driver. There is no obligation upon me to divulge the driver, you are not the Police...
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 7th Mar 17, 11:37 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    My response was...

    Hi,

    What is your position exactly? The fact that you are completely disregarding the legislation/law and making up your own rules to play by?

    As stated previously, I will not be paying the charges, as they are not my responsibility and I cannot name the drivers as I do not remember who was driving that long ago. Maybe if you stuck to the POFA 2012 guidelines I would remember, but as you've left it so long I can't.

    You also mention in your previous email about 'transferring liability'. There is no liability to transfer as I am legally not liable for anything. Again, I will not appeal the charge because I am not liable for the charge. Therefore I have nothing to appeal.
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 7th Mar 17, 11:38 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    Their response...

    Hello Bob,

    Your comments are duly noted

    Regards

    DE Appeals
    • rdjevans17
    • By rdjevans17 7th Mar 17, 11:38 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    rdjevans17
    To which I replied...

    Hi,

    Sorry, but you seem not to have answered my question regarding your position. If you could clear that up for me I would really appreciate it.

    What is your position exactly? The fact that you are completely disregarding the legislation/law and making up your own rules to play by?

    Regards
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 7th Mar 17, 12:50 PM
    • 1,378 Posts
    • 2,822 Thanks
    Lamilad
    Just a point of note. Making one comment saying 'I was not the driver' then another say 'I can't remember who was driving' caused me about 40 mins worth of arguing in court.

    In comms of this type I would say less is more. I would've just sent C-M's response verbatim.

    Of course we all know what you really meant was 'I can't remember who was driving but I know for a fact it wasn't me' So nothing to worry about, I'm just advising caution.
    • Mr Picklehead
    • By Mr Picklehead 5th Jul 18, 2:04 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Mr Picklehead
    A relative of mine has had something similar from HX CPM at appeal:


    We do not need to comply with PoFA and the PCN was issued correctly. If they fail to name the driver, then they will be held liable for the charge, we do have legal justification. The issue here is that there has been a breach of the terms and conditions of the car park by failing to purchase a pay and display ticket, which the appellant is failing to address or respond to. As per the attached Parkeon data, this clearly shows that no ticket was purchased for the above vehicle, thus proving they breached the terms and conditions of the car park and are liable for the PCN.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 5th Jul 18, 6:05 AM
    • 3,784 Posts
    • 6,227 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    @Mr P. Start your own thread rather than using a very old one.

    As an aside, HX are incorrect but when has that stopped any of them - and would you take legal advice from an ex-clamper? They'd struggle with the Sun never mind "Law for Dummies".
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to RTFM - the Civil Procedure Rules
    2. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend- See #1
    3. Failing to RTFCL - the Court letters
    4. Template defences that say nothing - See #1
    5. Forgetting about the Witness Statement - See #3
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