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  • FIRST POST
    • DocTim
    • By DocTim 4th Mar 17, 2:58 PM
    • 3Posts
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    DocTim
    Ford Ecoboost - engine failure
    • #1
    • 4th Mar 17, 2:58 PM
    Ford Ecoboost - engine failure 4th Mar 17 at 2:58 PM
    We bought my daughter a second-hand Ford Focus just over a year ago, with the new 1.0 Ecoboost 125 bhp engine. Bought it from a non-Ford car dealer. Found it was loosing coolant after buying it. The car dealer was useless but we found out there was a recall by Ford to fix a coolant degas pipe, that was likely to fail completely and destroy the engine. So the car was booked into the local Ford dealer about 9 months ago, the pipe replaced and the coolant loss fixed. Last week the engine failed - I suspect a blown head gasket.

    The car is now just over 4 years old, so outside it's Ford warrenty. It's done about 50,000 miles, with a full service history (last two non-Ford). If it is a failed head gasket, then this would be related to the coolant loss - a design fault. We don't know how it was treated prior to my daughter getting it (e.g. if the previous owner let the coolant run very low).

    My daughter's spoken to Ford, who said take it into the local dealer (we'll have to get it towed there) and pay for a diagnosis. Then they will consider it.

    What do you think the chances are of Ford paying for the repair?
    If Ford refuse to cover the repair costs, it is worth pursueing this?

    Thanks

    Tim
Page 7
    • Arklight
    • By Arklight 23rd Aug 18, 12:37 PM
    • 1,465 Posts
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    Arklight
    The reports of failures are accelerating over time. It looks like a lot of 2012 engines are really at the age where they are at risk of failure.

    This could be a massive problem for Ford. Or the people who own Fords. Depending on how you look at it.
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 23rd Aug 18, 1:46 PM
    • 2,598 Posts
    • 2,184 Thanks
    Stoke
    The reports of failures are accelerating over time. It looks like a lot of 2012 engines are really at the age where they are at risk of failure.

    This could be a massive problem for Ford. Or the people who own Fords. Depending on how you look at it.
    Originally posted by Arklight
    Ford will win either way. People will continue to buy cars and they will continue to sell badly designed engines.
    • Yorkshirepud1978
    • By Yorkshirepud1978 9th Sep 18, 9:27 PM
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    Yorkshirepud1978
    With the greatest and truely heartfelt respect, your figures are exaggerated for this context. Also you are speaking with somebody that has researched this topic extensively over the past 2 years, so I have very happy to publicly discuss this with you, maybe you can let me know something new? I would be delighted.

    From the gov data on registered cars there are 90k 1.0 litre turbo Focus cars currently on the road in the age range reported by Ford dealership staff to be within the group of cars affected. Most of the 900 registrations on the Facebook group are Focus cars, albiet this issue affects all models with the 1.0 litre engine. This is because of the group page name used to have the word "Focus" in it. It only changed name within the past 4 weeks after it was clear it affected all models.
    .
    Originally posted by TickersPlaysPop
    I've been keen to read a lot of the stories out there on Ecoboost, especially with having a background in Automotive parts myself for a number of years.

    I'm not as up to speed with the numbers on the road, however part of my argument that this is an issue would be that the OEM's own drive towards PPM (Parts per million) Quality standards.

    In short vehicle manufacturers don't work on failures of engine components to a % they work on driving a maximum failure rate in every 1 million parts produced and penalise their component providers if these levels are exceeded.

    Lets say Ford's acceptable standard is 4 engine failures per million - that would 0.000004% per million vehicles produced.

    Lets widen that to 120 Parts Per Million - 0.00012% - there are documents online to do with Ford USA's Q1 PPM standard that can be googled and seem to suggest negative scoring if levels of failures exceed this.

    'PPM (+100 to -250 points)
    Provides incentive to continually improve, increasing Customer Satisfaction
    A supplier can gain positive Q1 points by either outperforming the
    commodity PPM or by achieving 60 or less PPM
    – a site can lose points by
    exceeding the commodity PPM or exceeding 100 PPM. A site can gain or
    lose points for both production and service PPM. If multiple commodities are
    provided by a site, it will only receive points for the worst performing
    commodity for production and for service, respectivel
    y. For commodity
    PPM performance, negative points are only assigned for sites with PPM
    greater than 120. Should a supplier’s six month PPM level, for either
    production or service, exceed the ongoing commodity PPM by 100% or
    more, and the site PPM is greater than 120, the supplier loses 250 points
    and Q1 status.
    Sites can receive positive points when they outperform the commodity PPM.
    To gain or lose points for PPM performance, suppliers must have shipment
    activity in two of the prior six months. Suppliers to FCSD must have reject
    activity in four of the prior six months to lose Q1 status.
    PPM points are determined as indicated in the Scoring Thresholds table
    (page 28).'

    Lets widen that and say Ford work on a rate of even 1000 engine failures allowed per million produced - even that is a percentage rate of 0.001%.

    So if there are 90k cars registered in the UK with failures of 900 (that we know of) - that's 1%.

    Scaling this up to an OEM's Parts Per Million rate that's 10,000 cars in a Million - Ford will deem this as a serious issue internally I would think/hope.
    Last edited by Yorkshirepud1978; 09-09-2018 at 9:34 PM. Reason: additional explanatory text
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 10th Sep 18, 10:15 AM
    • 20,944 Posts
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    agrinnall

    So if there are 90k cars registered in the UK with failures of 900 (that we know of) - that's 1%.
    Originally posted by Yorkshirepud1978

    I'd expect there to be a lot more than 90K cars in the UK with Ecoboost engines. This says that Ford had produced 2 million engines worldwide, although it's not clear when that was.


    https://www.foraymotorgroup.co.uk/news/article/ford-produces-two-millionth-ecoboost-engine
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 10th Sep 18, 6:11 PM
    • 2,598 Posts
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    Stoke
    Part of the problem is that the EcoBoost has won a few awards and so people are continuing to purchase it, blissfully unaware of the problems that potentially lie around the corner. Magazines, car review shows etc and the like, test these engines in ideal conditions with a car that's done about 200 miles rather than one that's done 40,000. I wonder if Ford have started fixing the problems so that they don't occur on new vehicles?

    It's much like the original Ford Ka which hoovered up awards ahead of more expensive rivals such as the VW Lupo, Renault Clio and the Peugeot 106/206. It's only with hindsight that we all now know that the original Ka's were complete junk that rusted at the first sign of rain, had never ending problems with cabin heating/cooling and suffered engine reliability problems..... while the Lupo's and 206's didn't rust and were superior in almost every way with proper galvanising, working heating/cooling and well engineered engines that lasted well and didn't suffer from sludge, seized spark plug and rattly chains and tappety engines that failed prematurely due to bent push rods etc.

    You wonder how manufacturers test these engines? Aren't they obliged to run it through the most extreme testing possible, to ensure common faults are picked up early? I know that some things can't be picked up, but having read about these failures, I would have expected early intensive testing to have picked this up.
    • TickersPlaysPop
    • By TickersPlaysPop 11th Sep 18, 9:59 PM
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    TickersPlaysPop
    I'd expect there to be a lot more than 90K cars in the UK with Ecoboost engines. This says that Ford had produced 2 million engines worldwide, although it's not clear when that was.


    https://www.foraymotorgroup.co.uk/news/article/ford-produces-two-millionth-ecoboost-engine
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    90k is the number of UK 1.0 litre petrol turbo Ford Focus cars, i.e. EcoBoost. That is the figure for the UK only.

    The 2 million worldwide figure repeatedly mentioned by people on forums that agrue to support Ford do not tell you the full facts. Ecoboost cars are basically turbo petrols and range from, 1.0, to 1.5, 1.6, 2.0 and above. So the total ecoboost cars includes all engine sizes and car models. So that is Fiesta, Focus, Ecosport, transit, c max, b max and maybe more.

    Armed with the full facts you will see the truth.
    Peace.
    • TickersPlaysPop
    • By TickersPlaysPop 11th Sep 18, 10:07 PM
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    TickersPlaysPop
    UPDATE

    List now upto 1122 car reg plates with the latest 22 cars including three 2015 plate cars. So the claims that this critical engine fragility only affects 'early' models and that Ford have fixed the problem is appearing to be rubbish.

    BBC are filming now so please visit the fordecoboostnightmare group on facebook to have you chance at voicing your concerns to the public.

    This Sunday the BBC are in the south east for a group meeting to film, and the number is close to 30 and growing. The show will air in October prime time TV called Inside Out.

    The group litigation order in the UK is growing and will take Ford to court to claim for losses incurred by all those affected. see #ecoboom

    There are reports of dealers refusing to take the cars as trade ins, so car value is being significantly being affected by Fords refusal to admit there is a problem and recall all affected cars, not withstanding peoples safety concerns.

    kind regards to one and all
    Last edited by TickersPlaysPop; 11-09-2018 at 10:25 PM.
    Peace.
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 12th Sep 18, 8:06 AM
    • 1,620 Posts
    • 1,111 Thanks
    hollie.weimeraner
    UPDATE

    List now upto 1122 car reg plates with the latest 22 cars including three 2015 plate cars. So the claims that this critical engine fragility only affects 'early' models and that Ford have fixed the problem is appearing to be rubbish.

    BBC are filming now so please visit the fordecoboostnightmare group on facebook to have you chance at voicing your concerns to the public.

    This Sunday the BBC are in the south east for a group meeting to film, and the number is close to 30 and growing. The show will air in October prime time TV called Inside Out.

    The group litigation order in the UK is growing and will take Ford to court to claim for losses incurred by all those affected. see #ecoboom

    There are reports of dealers refusing to take the cars as trade ins, so car value is being significantly being affected by Fords refusal to admit there is a problem and recall all affected cars, not withstanding peoples safety concerns.

    kind regards to one and all
    Originally posted by TickersPlaysPop
    And yet people are still in denial (or possibly work for Ford )

    If you spend a lot of time searching through that thread you'll see that I've posted there several times already to say that my experience, and that of the vast majority of owners, is entirely at odds with the experience of a few shouty people.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
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    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 12th Sep 18, 8:49 AM
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    agrinnall
    And yet people are still in denial (or possibly work for Ford )
    Originally posted by hollie.weimeraner

    I'm neither, I am simply one of the vast majority of Ecoboost owners who have had no problems whatsoever.
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 12th Sep 18, 9:02 AM
    • 1,620 Posts
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    hollie.weimeraner
    I'm neither, I am simply one of the vast majority of Ecoboost owners who have had no problems whatsoever.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    And therein lies the issue. I was pretty much happy with my Focus (apart from the door seals issue until I fixed it myself) although Ford Customer Service was awful.
    The problem with the engines is that you don't know they're going to fail until they actually do fail and by that time you need a new engine at a cost of thousands (a coolant level sensor could possibly have helped).
    The fact that there was no way of knowing if my car was going to die on me or not was what prompted me to get rid of it (along with the awful responses from Ford that are well documented).
    I do hope you continue to enjoy your ecoboost and are one of many that don't have a problem but for me that growing problem was more than I could put up with.
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    • TickersPlaysPop
    • By TickersPlaysPop 12th Sep 18, 12:50 PM
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    TickersPlaysPop
    I'd expect there to be a lot more than 90K cars in the UK with Ecoboost engines. This says that Ford had produced 2 million engines worldwide, although it's not clear when that was.


    https://www.foraymotorgroup.co.uk/news/article/ford-produces-two-millionth-ecoboost-engine
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    in light of the posts above, particularly the statistical analysis of numbers and my clarification on UK car numbers. Please can you explain your position on the Ecoboost problem being statistically insignificant?

    Please keep in mind when this problem happens without warning, on cars fully serviced by Ford and within 5 years of its life with average mileage, the result is at least 6 weeks without a car, a bill for £6000.

    If that happens to you within 1-2 years it would write off your EcoBoost Fiesta? Is this why some car dealers are refusing to accept EcoBoost trade-ins?
    Last edited by TickersPlaysPop; 12-09-2018 at 1:07 PM.
    Peace.
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 12th Sep 18, 2:40 PM
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    • 2,184 Thanks
    Stoke
    And therein lies the issue. I was pretty much happy with my Focus (apart from the door seals issue until I fixed it myself) although Ford Customer Service was awful.
    The problem with the engines is that you don't know they're going to fail until they actually do fail and by that time you need a new engine at a cost of thousands (a coolant level sensor could possibly have helped).
    The fact that there was no way of knowing if my car was going to die on me or not was what prompted me to get rid of it (along with the awful responses from Ford that are well documented).
    I do hope you continue to enjoy your ecoboost and are one of many that don't have a problem but for me that growing problem was more than I could put up with.
    Originally posted by hollie.weimeraner
    Is there really no coolant level sensor? My 20 odd year old Lupo had a coolant level sensor.....
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 12th Sep 18, 9:19 PM
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    hollie.weimeraner
    Is there really no coolant level sensor? My 20 odd year old Lupo had a coolant level sensor.....
    Originally posted by Stoke
    Not sure if the latest models have them or not but my 2013 Focus and my wifeís 2015 Fiesta didnít have them. Apparently itís not unusual with a number of modern engines.
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    • TickersPlaysPop
    • By TickersPlaysPop 12th Sep 18, 11:04 PM
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    TickersPlaysPop
    Is there really no coolant level sensor? My 20 odd year old Lupo had a coolant level sensor.....
    Originally posted by Stoke
    The 1.0 litre petrol turbo Focus cars 2012 to 2014 certainly do not have coolant level sensors, maybe newer engines also lack this basic safety element. The 1.6 also didnt, but due to a safety recall in Jan 2018 due to a fire risk, it will have a level sensor fitted along with a completely new coolant system layout with new pipes and new software.

    The 1.0 litre desperately needs a recall to fit it with an appropriate coolant system to significantly prevent over heating events occuring which lead to severe engine damage to the point of needing an entire new engine.
    Last edited by TickersPlaysPop; 13-09-2018 at 8:12 AM.
    Peace.
    • Arklight
    • By Arklight 13th Sep 18, 8:09 PM
    • 1,465 Posts
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    Arklight
    The Facebook group is showing people with coolant tanks that are just disintegrating with cracks inside the bonnet.

    Apparently you can replace it for £15 at a dealer. Whoever heard of having to replace a coolant tank for wear?
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 13th Sep 18, 8:18 PM
    • 1,620 Posts
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    hollie.weimeraner
    The Facebook group is showing people with coolant tanks that are just disintegrating with cracks inside the bonnet.

    Apparently you can replace it for £15 at a dealer. Whoever heard of having to replace a coolant tank for wear?
    Originally posted by Arklight
    I've been driving since 1973, lost count of the cars I've owned but definitely know I've never replaced a coolant tank and none of my mates have either (mind you they haven't owned an ecoboost).
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    • TickersPlaysPop
    • By TickersPlaysPop 15th Sep 18, 10:23 AM
    • 703 Posts
    • 341 Thanks
    TickersPlaysPop
    The Facebook group is showing people with coolant tanks that are just disintegrating with cracks inside the bonnet.

    Apparently you can replace it for £15 at a dealer. Whoever heard of having to replace a coolant tank for wear?
    Originally posted by Arklight
    I've been reading the facebook page almost daily for over a year. There are multiple points of failure that can occur. Pipes/hoses, gaskets, expansion tank, cabin heater matrix. All this within 3 to 5 yrs is an indication that the materials of the components combined with the temperature and pressure and coolant mix is not fit for purpose. This could be a bad batch but the system can leak in too many places for it to be isolated to a bad batch of 1 component.

    Cracking plastic as we all know is a sign of aging.

    If the consequence of a coolant leak is almost certain engine failure and a bill for £6000, Ford should have a modified their preventative maintenance schedule to change these parts before the parts start to fail.
    Peace.
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 17th Sep 18, 11:12 AM
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    Stoke
    I've also owned many old cars and never once replaced a coolant tank.
    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 17th Sep 18, 3:56 PM
    • 1,620 Posts
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    hollie.weimeraner
    I've also owned many old cars and never once replaced a coolant tank.
    Originally posted by Stoke
    Or heater matrix for that matter.

    I have replaced the odd coolant pipe but the last one I can remember doing was a 1970 Hillman Imp and the engine was fine afterwards despite having an alloy head
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    • hollie.weimeraner
    • By hollie.weimeraner 17th Sep 18, 7:21 PM
    • 1,620 Posts
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    hollie.weimeraner
    Pulled into supermarket car park on my way home tonight and saw a 14 plate Focus, bonnet up, empty coolant tank but unattended. Obviously awaiting collection.
    3.975 KW Solar PV. 15 Canadian Black 265w panels with Sunny Boy 3600tl Inverter. SSE facing with 30 degree pitch. In occasionally sunny Sheffield.
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