Have I appealed to soon

Redx · 24 February 2017 at 8:58AM

this is explained in the NEWBIES sticky thread, but basically POFA2012 came in 5 years ago and has certain rules limiting keeper liability , whereas a driver has no such protections and so its easier for a parking company to enforce against the actual perpetrator rather than trying to follow the rules of POFA in sueing the driver

I thought this was all explained in the NEWBIES sticky thread under keeper liability and POFA2012 ?

there are few laws governing this sc@mmers paradise , but POFA2012 and the CRA2015 plus a few others do exist to try and protect people , so giving up those protections is a difficult one to solve

PALS is your best bet in this case , so dont take NO for an answer , ensure you quote those guidelines at them , ensure they know it was the lack of staff causing this issue , and in future dont be so hasty , lol (seek free advice , thats what the internet is good for)

The_Deep · 24 February 2017 at 10:51AM

Does the Hospital have a Facebook page? If so write bad stuff on it.

kcking43 · 24 February 2017 at 7:18PM

Very surprised to see a prompt response to my appeal of yesterday evening.

Sadly the inept idiots at ethical parking management have declined my appeal. Their letter response attached to an email does not mention at all the fact that I was unable to obtain a permit, which is the crux of my appeal. They have simply said I was not displaying a permit therefore i and in contravention of the parking regulations that are clearly displayed and therefore the fine stands.

Their letter clearly states this is the end of the appeal process with them and if I wish to take it further I can either go through POPLA or take it up with the ombudsman.

They have photos of my car showing no permit but no evidence to show a means of obtaining such a permit, I.e. a photo of someone in the reception.

Should I now proceed through POPLA or the ombudsman?

Thanks in advance.

Coupon-mad · 24 February 2017 at 7:25PM

You can only do POPLA.

Ethical are a local joke in Sussex, you know!

kcking43 · 25 February 2017 at 1:38AM

Thanks for help thus far from all contributors.

I am now at the POPLA stage with a code from the parking vultures at EPM, so planning to submit the following statement on the POPLA appeal site, what do you think?

Date: 24th Feb 2017

"Dear Sirs

Re: CBC No. EP63490

I challenge this Contractual Breach Charge as keeper of the car xxxxxxx.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

I understand your claim is based upon no permit being displayed. However, the reason for the refusal to pay the charge is that no permit was displayed because the driver could not obtain one. There was no operative in reception to provide a parking permit (in line with the understood procedure) when the driver arrived in the car park of the Orchard Centre mental health unit to visit his seriously ill wife at 19:20 on 23rd February 2017.

Significant paper record evidence exists of prior compliance with this parking permit regime by the driver and he would have complied on this occasion had he been able to do so.

If you wish to proceed with the charge can you provide the following:

1. Clear irrefutable photographic evidence of the presence of staff in the reception who were qualified to have issued such a permit at the time of entry to the car park.
1. Who is the party that contracted with your company?
2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site and which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

In the course of this disputed claim should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent at any time to process data from the DVLA relating to this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your prompt reply."

Redx · 25 February 2017 at 10:32AM

sorry to say but that is NOT a popla appeal, its more like the IPC type appeal in post #1 of the newbies sticky thread that goes to the PPC

post #3 of that newbies sticky thread details templates for a popla appeal

here is an example of one recently thrown together so you can see the differences , which also highlights the fact that its about legal arguments

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5599728&page=2

Half_way · 25 February 2017 at 10:47AM

A rejected appeal to the parking company is to be expected.
Hospitals often have vulnerable people coming in and out, either as a result of medical issues, or they are caring for someone else and have other more important things to worry about.

Most of these will panic and pay up, those that appeal will be turned down and then panic and pay up.

Therefore Hospitals are perfect hunting grounds for Predatory Parking Companies.

I assume you have read the NHS guidelines on private pakring companies, located here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

in particular

Contracted-out car parking

NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.
NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line with the relevant codes of practice6where applicable.
Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.

When dealing with PALs you should state these NHS Patient Visitor and Staff parking principals

[/quote]

A quick search on google throws up this news story concerning another hospital ( lichfield?) http://www.lichfieldmercury.co.uk/hospital-does-pay-firm-run-car-park/story-29227842-detail/story.html

which contains this:

The trust says it receives none of the "fines", only the parking fee that was not paid which led to the "fine" being issued.
It also does not pay ParkingEye to run the car park.
Patient left with 'nasty taste' over parking fine at Lichfield's Samuel Johnson Hospital

City woman sent fine demand despite paying to park at Lichfield's Samuel Johnson Hospital

"The trust's contract with ParkingEye is at no cost to the trust," said spokesman.
"ParkingEye receive revenue from the issuing of PCNs (Parking Charge Notices).
"Out of this revenue, they are responsible for all associated capital and revenue costs (they supply and maintain all car parking equipment)."

Which is directly at odds with the NHS car parking principals, as it is in the parking companies best interest to generate as much revenue as possible from the site, as that is their sole source of income.
You may be able to dig around and find similar for the hospital site you were ticketed on

The_Deep · 25 February 2017 at 11:51AM

Indeed, in my local hospital, Royal Berkshire, there are signs everywhere saying "This hospital belongs to you ...".

kcking43 · 25 February 2017 at 2:54PM

Thanks to all for support thus far. I have taken onboard RedX's advice and am redrafting the POPLA appeal. My only question at this point is when should I progress that appeal? Should I wait to receive a NTK letter as if that is received beyond a certain date it seems I have extra leverage in my favour?

Will post my revised POPLA draft later today.

Redx · 25 February 2017 at 3:50PM

you have approximately 28 days to submit a popla appeal , 33 at the very most and that is stretching it

the PPC should issue the NTK between day 29 and day 56 , so awaiting an NTK would be a waste of time due to your acting too hastily to start with and would mean your popla appeal would not be allowed to be submitted (missed the deadline)

a PALS cancellation (backed up in writing from the PPC) is still your best solution, but the POPLA appeal needs to be submitted within 4 weeks , or less

Have I appealed to soon

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