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Civil Enforcement LTD Hospital Fine

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  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 58,151
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    edited 19 February 2017 at 10:02AM
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister. :D
    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
  • I've had no reply since Sunday from all of PALS / Hospital / Debt Collector / CEL until today when the debt collector replied with the following

    "Good Morning,

    Thank you for your recent email.

    Please be advised that we have been instructed to pursue an outstanding parking charge notice on behalf of our client.

    Our clients signage is approved by the British Parking Association.

    We are under no obligation to disclose the landowners details and this stage and our client is named Civil Enforcement Ltd who manage that site.

    The parking charge notice was affixed to the vehicle on 26 October 2016 and a further letter was sent 29 November 2016. We are relying on POFA 2012 and as such it is too late to appeal further. You, as the registered keeper of the vehicle remain liable for this charge.

    We did not obtain your details from the DVLA, it was our client who had reasonable cause to request your details from the DVLA.

    Please contact the office on 01932 918916. Without payment, the account will now be left to progress accordingly.

    Thank you,

    Jaime "

    I would appreciate further advice!

    Thanks again
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,593
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    edited 23 February 2017 at 3:34PM
    Report CEL to the BPA in an email complaint about a serious breach of the BPA Code of Practice, for allowing a debt collector send a letter which says the keeper is liable:
    We are relying on POFA 2012 and as such it is too late to appeal further. You, as the registered keeper of the vehicle remain liable for this charge.

    CEL do not rely on or use the POFA. A keeper CANNOT be told they are liable for a CEL charge, unless there is evidence the keeper was also the driver (never assist with that!).

    aos@britishparking.co.uk

    and copy in David Dunford at the DVLA

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    and attach a copy of the non-POFA NTK and a copy of that letter - you must send them both. Also tell the BPA and DVLA that as keeper you did not ignore it but the fact is, you've received no correspondence until this point

    DO NOT TALK ABOUT WHO PARKED THE CAR!!

    ...but you can say a complaint has been made to PALS and you have a huge issue with NHS Trusts and private parking firms colluding (or parking firms are misleading NHS Trusts) and not following the Government policy in NHS car parks. But of course your main complaint is about being misled about keeper liability by CEL's debt collector agent and also misled that 'appeal time' is affected by Schedule 4 which it is not (''as such it is too late to appeal further'' means nothing at all because the POFA does not set appeal deadlines in any way).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • This is a Job for me tonight writing the reply, thanks very much!
  • danmc1309
    danmc1309 Posts: 32
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    edited 1 March 2017 at 1:04PM
    Hello again,

    As advised i emailed the 2 address provided with the following email
    "Hello,

    I would like to make a complaint related to Civil Enforcement Ltd and the debt collector in which they have passed my details on for a serious breach of the BPA code of practice in which I've been sent the letter attached and then the email below which wrongly states that I as the keeper am liable.


    "We are relying on POFA 2012 and as such it is too late to appeal further. You, as the registered keeper of the vehicle remain liable for this charge."

    As we are all aware CEL nor the debt collector in question do not rely on or use the POFA and a keeper cannot be told that they are liable for this charge unless there is evidence that the keeper was also the driver. I have not been supplied with any evidence that the keeper is also the driver and haven't been supplied with a POPLA code as requested. I responded to my letter as soon as i received it clearly stating i am the registered keeper only and received no correspondence up until this point. I feel there is also a clear attempt to mislead me in this correspondence when told "as such it is too late to appeal further" when POFA is not impacted by appeal deadlines in any way and not affected by schedule 4.


    I have already made a complaint to PALS and the hospital directly before receiving this further communication from the debt collector and have a huge issue with NHS trusts and private parking firms colluding to mislead the public and the NHS trusts in which they are supposed to serve and firms such as these acting in this way do nothing to settle my concerns. To be clear, I contacted all 4 departments at the same time when appealing to the debt collector and CEL in the same email (to which CEL have not replied) while also complaining to PALs and the hospital directly.

    Kind regards

    Name (registered keeper)
    address xxxxx"

    Today i received the following

    "Dear Mr Xxxx,

    Thank you for your email.

    When a motorist chooses to enter and use a private car park, private road or section of private road he is deemed to have entered into a contract. The terms, conditions and charges as advised on the signage at the site, then apply. We note from the email chain below that ZZPS Limited have advised a parking charge was affixed to the vehicle on the 26/10/2016. The Notice to Driver would have given the driver 28 days to appeal or pay the charge.

    If no payment or appeal is received from the driver the operator will contact the DVLA for the registered keeper’s details. The DVLA allow members of the BPA Approved Operator Scheme (AOS) to request keeper details as they have ‘reasonable cause’ to believe that a breach of the prevailing parking conditions may have occurred.

    From the information provided in ZZPS Limited’s response we can see the Notice to Keeper was issued on the 29/11/2016 utilising the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). The notice gives the keeper 28 days to transfer the liability, appeal or pay the parking charge. If a charge is issued utilising PoFA and no transfer of liability, payment or appeal is received within this timeframe the registered keeper becomes liable for the charge.

    A 10-digit POPLA verification code is only provided when the motorist appeals within the specified timeframe and the appeal is rejected. Please be advised that the correspondence you received dated the 06/02/2017 is not the notice to keeper -it is a debt recovery letter and at this stage the option to appeal is no longer available.

    It is not mandatory that the operator provides a copy of the contract between themselves and the landowner to the public as this information is not in the public domain.

    As a membership association and not a regulatory body we are not empowered to become involved in individual disputes between a motorist and an operator or their agent. We can however address any breaches of our Code of Practice if evidence is provided. From the information provided so far we cannot confirm there to be a breach of a point raised in our Code of Practice. Please provide photographs of the signage and once received we can confirm whether they are compliant with the Code.

    If you want any further information relating to the parking charge please contact ZZPS Limited directly.

    Yours Sincerely,

    Esme Berry
    AOS Investigations Team
    British Parking Association"
  • danmc1309
    danmc1309 Posts: 32
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    edited 1 March 2017 at 1:08PM
    Anybody with any thoughts on this?
    Fruitcake wrote: »
    ..
    Coupon-mad wrote: »
    ..
  • danmc1309
    danmc1309 Posts: 32
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    I'm confused as after reading post "READ THIS BEFORE YOU START A NEW THREAD ABOUT ZZPS or DEBT RECOVERY PLUS!" which states to ignore ZZPS i've contacted them and come up against a seemingly brick wall with AOS after complaining about my situation.

    Do i have anywhere to go from here? I understand there are lots of threads but after looking through and reading the large newbie thread I'm unsure if the information i've been replied to by AOS can be challenged in any way not knowing if my case is the same as these!

    Sorry for the questions and I'd really appreciate anybody who can give me 2 minutes help on what i should be doing :)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,593
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    edited 1 March 2017 at 6:32PM
    Dear Esme and Mr Dunford/DVLA,

    You appear to have missed the entire point of my email. Shamefully, the BPA appear to be good at that these days, when contacted by the public with a genuine complaint involving a clear breach. The public perception of the BPA is becoming lower as each dismissive reply appears in the public domain and you can be assured this email trail is being viewed on a national forum. I make no apology for that.

    Kindly refrain from lecturing me about the dates that a NTD and the non-POFA NTK were issued and trying to deflect and fob off a valid complaint with a pointless reply, hoping I do not know anything about the POFA. Of course there is a breach of the BPA Code of Practice.

    I will spell it out:

    (a) CEL do not issue POFA PCNs.

    (b) The debt collector has stated in writing: "We are relying on POFA 2012 and as such it is too late to appeal further. You, as the registered keeper of the vehicle remain liable for this charge."

    (c) You have then joined this series of misleading letters by telling me now (wrongly): ''From the information provided in ZZPS Limited’s response we can see the Notice to Keeper was issued on the 29/11/2016 utilising the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA).'' Do you/does the BPA actually know the difference between a POFA PCN and a non-POFA one? It is not just about dates of service.

    To summarise: A parking operator's agent has stated in a letter that a registered keeper is liable under the POFA, for a non-POFA PCN. That law cannot apply and it seems that they have lied in order to extort money from me, as keeper. And you have repeated that misinformation, telling me that the PCN was issued under Schedule 4. I suggest you need to take a closer look or escalate the matter to a Manager who does know the difference between a POFA notice and one that does not use the mandatory wording from paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 (and no, we are not talking about semantics or minor wording ambiguity, this IS a non-POFA PCN).

    What are the BPA and DVLA going to do about this serious breach? Or would you like me to forward it to Marcus Jones at the DCLG as yet another example of the BPA's utterly ineffective responses to the public and the watering down of previously clearly stated breaches?

    Are you going to try to tell me that this template letter (and your misleading email) was a one-off error? Or that it is not for the BPA to decide if a NTK complies with the POFA or not, when it is crystal clear this is no such notice? The BPA clearly no longer puts anyone except your paying members 'at the heart of your thinking' and your change in stance to issue dismissive responses to consumers has not gone unnoticed.

    I would like to remind you that a few years ago, before the CoP and BPA responses were watered down, the DVLA banned a significant number of parking firms and one debt collector, for saying that a keeper is liable when they are not. So, what sanctions will be applied in this case?

    kind regards,
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • danmc1309
    danmc1309 Posts: 32
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    Coupon mad you're a diamond. I can't thank you enough :)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 130,593
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    edited 1 March 2017 at 6:31PM
    Just added a bit so send that latest edited version. Copy in Mr Dunford again. Don't be concerned about an assertive reply to rattle the BPA's cage, they need it rattled.

    The BPA deserve robust replies - this is awful.

    A while back I used to email complaints to the BPA occasionally and they used to investigate properly and respond far better than the drivel they serve up now. They have gone backwards in recent years, really scraping the barrel with their support of their aggressive, bullyboy membership firms. If it was about parking management we would all have less problem with these charges but this 'industry' shows every day that it is NOT about 'parking management'. These firms exist to empty people's pockets just like clampers did, no better, sometimes worse.

    If this one is not cancelled, take heart that CEL are easy to beat even if they issue a court claim (guess why...because they do not use the POFA!).
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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