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  • FIRST POST
    • c1223
    • By c1223 1st Feb 17, 3:08 PM
    • 51Posts
    • 9Thanks
    c1223
    UK Car Park Management ignoring invoice rejection
    • #1
    • 1st Feb 17, 3:08 PM
    UK Car Park Management ignoring invoice rejection 1st Feb 17 at 3:08 PM
    Received an invoice as a car which I am the keeper of was incorrectly parked. Long story short is that the driver had to temporarily (3 minutes max) leave their car "illegally" parked (although not blocking any access or otherwise) in order to move a work van out of the space in which they would then place the car.

    Incident occurred on 01/10/16. As the car is a lease car, the finance company received the invoice and transferred liability to lease holder on 08/10/16. The invoice was then received by the leaseholder about a month (05/11/16) after the incident.

    Around just over 2 weeks later a letter was sent to UK CPM rejecting the invoice as they hadn't complied with PoFA 2012. UP CPM were warned that further use of personal details would be a breach of the DPA. Roughly 2 weeks after that (05/12/16) UK CPM sent a reply saying the appeal was carefully considered but "unsuccessful" on this occasion, essentially ignoring the content of the letter that had been sent to them.

    What are the options now?

    The back story of their non-compliance with the PoFA is that as per 14 (2) (a) (my bold):

    the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
    Not one of those documents was included, and if I calculate correct, their deadline to send them to me is 21 days after the lease company sent them?

    I believe the situation in this thread is similar to mine?

    Should I appeal with the IAS or should I send them a letter before claim for continuing to use my personal data?

    Also, I assume that I've got my argument correct and that they haven't complied with PoFA?

    Thanks
Page 4
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 8th Aug 18, 10:00 PM
    • 8,834 Posts
    • 11,713 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thanks all. The information has been invaluable, but I don't feel I have the legal prowess (or the time to do enough research to become fully informed/prepare all the necessary documents) to continue this case. If I had the money, I would employ a solicitor to do this all for me.

    I shall be filing a complaint through Resolver in hope that people aren't put in this situation in the future.
    Originally posted by c1223
    You don't need a solicitor, people like Johnersh gives
    sound advice and that is why the dodgy legals lose
    and they are supposed to be solicitors even though they
    are of the mickey mouse variety
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Aug 18, 10:05 PM
    • 4,459 Posts
    • 5,849 Thanks
    waamo
    Resolver will be useless in this situation. The ppc will ignore them completely.
    This space for hire.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 23rd Aug 18, 12:33 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    So a quick update... Things have taken a turn.

    - I paid the CCJ within the 28 days. The CCJ has been removed from the register. (I.E. Gladstones must have informed them that I paid)
    - Today I received a letter saying that the judgement has been set-aside, and my case it ready to move to the small claims track.

    Any info now would be great. Obviously there's an abundance of information available regarding the questionnaire I need to fill in, however, how will this all work now I have paid the original judgement? Will that be used against me? Will a judge question why I've done this? I'll be calling the CCBC first thing tomorrow, but their information is relatively useless.

    As I've made clear, I didn't want the chance under any circumstances for a CCJ to be on my credit report for the next 6 years.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 23rd Aug 18, 6:38 AM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,246 Thanks
    Johnersh
    The next thing to expect is Gladstones to try and discontinue the claim.

    Did your application include provision to recover your costs? Links to the court orders would be helpful.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Aug 18, 6:50 AM
    • 3,664 Posts
    • 5,994 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Links to the court orders would be helpful.
    Especially the Judgment in default referred to in #32. We made an assumption without seeing it.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • c1223
    • By c1223 23rd Aug 18, 8:41 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    I didn't apply for a set-aside. I spoke to CCBC on the phone the minute the judgement in default came through who weren't helpful and quite unclear, but said to send my evidence again with the proof of the original email. So I made no application and paid no money.

    The judgement in default is as follows:

    To the Defendant

    You have not replied to the claim form

    It is therefore ordered that you must pay the claimant £xxx.xx for debt [and interest to date of judgement] and £xxx for costs [less £0 which you have already paid]
    There's two General Form of Judgement or Order with the letter. One says:

    It is ordered that the judgement against [me] dated xx July 2018 be and is hereby set aside
    The other says:

    It is ordered that:

    1. The judgement be set aside
    2. Direction questionnaires be issued.
    3. Because this order has been made on the application of a party without notice of the hearing being give, any other parties have the right to apply to have the Order set aside, varied or stayed."
    It does say a bit more about the process, but what catches my eye is if the Defendant isn't making the application in point #3 above, then if the case requires a hearing the claim will be transferred to the "preferred court". Does that mean this hearing could end up being in Manchester (or where ever Gladstones are based?)

    I hope that makes sense and is the info that was asked of me?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Aug 18, 9:01 AM
    • 3,664 Posts
    • 5,994 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Does that mean this hearing could end up being in Manchester (or where ever Gladstones are based?)
    No. It will go back to the DQ stage. Gladstones will ask for a paper hearing and/or their court. They will send you a blank DQ reply form for a paper hearing (N159). You ignore this and send back a N180 (oral hearing). The case will be allocated to your local court.

    Assuming they don't just drop it as they've been paid.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 23rd Aug 18, 9:36 AM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,246 Thanks
    Johnersh
    The letter has been treated as an application.

    You may wish to consider asking for a variation requiring Gladstones to pay the defendant the sum of X within 21 days.

    Something like the below might work - thereby tweaking the set aside, with the two documents to dovetail and be read together

    UPON reading the letter if the Defendant dated X

    IT IS ORDERED THAT

    1. The order of DJ xxx dated [date] be varied as follows:

    1.1. the claimant do pay to the defendant the sum of X paid to the Claimant in accordance with the order dated Y, set aside by order of DJ XX on [date]

    2. the claimant do pay the sum of X to the defendant within 21 days of this variation to the order.


    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 23rd Aug 18, 5:41 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    The letter has been treated as an application.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    Are you referring to the copy of the defence I sent after the deadline?

    You may wish to consider asking for a variation requiring Gladstones to pay the defendant the sum of X within 21 days.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    I'll look into this. Presumably, would I file this using an N244 form, and have to pay some sort of fee? (From the looks the EX50 booklet, it'll be £50 to "Application to vary (amend/change) a judgment (or order)").

    Presumably point 1.1 should read:

    1.1. the claimant do pay to the defendant the sum of X paid to the Claimant in accordance with the order judgment dated Y, set aside by order of DJ XX on [date]

    Assuming they don't just drop it as they've been paid.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Is this a "race against time" now? I.e. can they drop the case before I get the set-aside varied?
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 24th Aug 18, 12:04 AM
    • 1,183 Posts
    • 2,246 Thanks
    Johnersh
    I refer to this.
    said to send my evidence again with the proof of the original email.
    Presumably you sent something to suggest the judgment was unsafe.

    You could try writing another letter, but generally speaking an application would require a fee.

    A claimant can discontinue at any time.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 16th Sep 18, 11:48 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    So the latest update is that the DQ has been sent to the CCBC and Gladstones. Gladstones have also sent the DQ back to me with a cover letter saying that if I get in touch with them they will refund the payment I've already made.

    Now my questions is: why would they want to give me a refund and take this to court given I've already paid them?

    Weirdly, later in the letter it says "our Client would be happy to listen to any genuine payment proposals that you wish to put forward".

    Slightly confusing. Any ideas? If I go to court and somehow lose, will the costs to me be more? I.e. can they add further costs to the claim?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Sep 18, 1:11 AM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,672 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Now my questions is: why would they want to give me a refund and take this to court given I've already paid them?
    Because their first duty is to the Court, and the Court has ordered that the mistaken judgment be set aside. Therefore they have actually done the right thing.

    Maybe they are hoping you say 'can't be bothered, keep it' (please don't!). Contact them and ask for a cheque to be posted to you within 7 days.

    If I go to court and somehow lose, will the costs to me be more? I.e. can they add further costs to the claim?
    No, not unless you are found to have behaved wholly vexatiously and unreasonably, e.g. as was found by the Judge, when admonishing the reportedly aggressive lay rep in the UHW Nurses case, which led to costs being added (the transcript is on this forum, posted by bargepole, as proof of that).

    Anyway no, only 1% of people here report a loss and they usually pay about £150 - £200, which is less than claimed in most cases, due to the fact Gladstones artificially add an unjustified £60 'indemnity' costs for no good reason whatsoever.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 17th Sep 18, 8:35 AM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    OK great, I'll get in touch with them ASAP and ask for a cheque.

    I don't feel I have "behaved wholly vexatiously and unreasonably". Although the links to the transcripts I found for that case seemed to be dead. Do you have a copy anywhere that I can have a read of?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Sep 18, 9:27 AM
    • 19,799 Posts
    • 31,264 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    OK great, I'll get in touch with them ASAP and ask for a cheque.

    I don't feel I have "behaved wholly vexatiously and unreasonably". Although the links to the transcripts I found for that case seemed to be dead. Do you have a copy anywhere that I can have a read of?
    Originally posted by c1223
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5728064
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 17th Sep 18, 10:18 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    Thanks, that's the link I found. Seems that the transcript links are dead.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 17th Sep 18, 10:28 PM
    • 9,868 Posts
    • 10,197 Thanks
    KeithP
    Both those onedrive links in the first post on that thread work fine for me.
    The first one being 16 pages and the second being 81 pages.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Sep 18, 10:41 PM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,672 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    They work for me and are well worth reading, for what NOT to do in Court, and why NOT to try to use a lay rep...unless the lay rep is bargepole or lamilad.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 17th Sep 18, 11:24 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    Weird glitch with OneDrive then. Seems to work now. I've read the short one. The longer one is definitely one for the train tomorrow. The transcription is quite hard to read when there's several people in conversation.

    From the first one, where does the 28% come from:

    Now, if we look at what that means in terms of the outcome on costs, given that
    there were seven issues, if the Court were to make this finding, the Court would
    then be looking at 28%, on my maths, of the Claimant’s costs being sought against
    the Defendants
    Furthermore, to claim for costs pursuant to CPR 27.14(g), what is the definition of " a party who has behaved unreasonably"?

    Finally, apart from this particular case, are there any other examples on the forum of anyone having to pay costs to the claimant? Hypothetically, what costs would one expect to pay for £250 claim? Several hours of band B legal costs?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Sep 18, 11:31 PM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,672 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    apart from this particular case, are there any other examples on the forum of anyone having to pay costs to the claimant?
    None.

    You have to be an aggressive idiot to be deemed wholly unreasonable & vexatious.

    Or a deluded, ill prepared, ranty rent a mouth 'waste of court time', like here:

    https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/09/open-university-law-student-fails-in-bid-to-sue-six-classmates-over-defamatory-forum-comments/

    Hypothetically, what costs would one expect to pay for £250 claim? Several hours of band B legal costs?
    Nothing in small claims, even if you lost.

    Maybe £50 solicitors costs if the Judge agreed. A big ''if'' as it's challengeable.

    So people who lose, pay about £175 all told (£100 PCN, then about £75 in court fees, interest, maybe solicitors fees if you are not good at arguing they were never incurred because Gladstones do the work free for their members).

    The claim is (ostensibly) £250 but they will not get £250. It's already inflated/made up, hence why to fight it, because even a lost case Defendant pays less!

    Defending a claim is not unreasonable behaviour and a Judge will cut people some slack when they are dragged into a case on the small claims track.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 17-09-2018 at 11:37 PM.
    • c1223
    • By c1223 25th Sep 18, 7:47 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    c1223
    Thanks Coupon-mad. The LegalCheek story was a good read. Good to get some clarification on the matter!

    Anyhow, I received a "Notice of Transfer of Proceedings" so it's going to the next stage. How long usually before I can or should expect a "Notice of Allocation"? Obviously I don't want to miss it. Having followed bargepole's advice in this thread, the case is listed in my home court.

    In the mean time, is there anything I should be doing? Is my witness statement essentially my defence but expanded with my evidence etc...? Should I be looking to add further information?

    What's the difference (or requirement) for a skeleton argument? I'm not entirely sure there will be any new/different information contained within it.

    Also, any suggestions how I can go about getting the information concerned with the below:

    This may be a "self-ticketing" site. The contract should show who hired UKCPM and may not be someone with the authority to hire UKCPM (there are a lot of dodgy UKCPM contracts out there). You should start checking who owns/occupies the site so you can challenge later.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
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