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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 99
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 6th Aug 18, 1:37 PM
    • 556 Posts
    • 596 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    Well lets see how the public react to the new Hyundai Kona.

    Seems to tick most of the boxes the public feel they need.

    SUV / Crossover Bodystyle
    300 Mile Real World Range (64kwh battery)
    All the tech and toys to keep it upto date
    100kw CCS charging, add 200 miles range in 50mins 140 miles in 30mins

    An on the road price of under £30k

    And looking like real world quick delivers rather than vapourware.

    Ordered ours on launch day 2nd Aug, was offered a delivery slot in 2 weeks but pushed it back to 1st Week Sept so its in a 68 plate.

    Should meet the needs of many.
    90k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Aug 18, 1:43 PM
    • 18,034 Posts
    • 16,351 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Well lets see how the public react to the new Hyundai Kona.
    ...
    An on the road price of under £30k
    Originally posted by Stageshoot
    So, again, twice the price of the ICE version that's been on the market a year already.


    IIRC, that was held up as the reason the e-Up! didn't sell...
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 6th Aug 18, 1:46 PM
    • 556 Posts
    • 596 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    Nowhere near twice the price,

    Unless you compare the bare bones poverty spec ICE to the top of the range electric.

    But as always the anti brigade have to try and find a way to make it look like a poor choice.

    If we have a look at the price list

    Hyundai KONA Premium SE
    Premium SE 1.0 T-GDi 120PS Manual Sport Utility Vehicle £20,946
    Premium SE 1.6 CRDi 115PS Manual Sport Utility Vehicle £22,606
    Premium SE 1.6 CRDi 136PS DCT Sport Utility Vehicle £23,906

    Premium SE 64 kWh Sport Utility Vehicle £35,656

    The Premium SE Electric 64kw (150Kw Motor) is £11450 more than the 50% less powerful 1.6CRDi

    Then take off the £4500 Govenment Grant brings the difference down to £6950

    So that extra price will be eaten up with savings in fuel servicing etc easily in 2 years, But no its just easier to spout that the EV is double the price.
    Last edited by Stageshoot; 06-08-2018 at 2:08 PM.
    90k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 6th Aug 18, 2:12 PM
    • 1,984 Posts
    • 10,367 Thanks
    NBLondon
    They are synonymous here - no-one cares about fuel stops in an ICE car because they don't take long anyway. If you're stopping for a rest within 150 miles, being able to charge whilst you rest gives you the charge time for free.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    How much time.... Wanting to stop every 150 miles is one thing. But that doesn't make a charging stop every 150 miles equally feasible. I can stop, have a pee, stretch legs maybe buy a coffee to go and be on the road again in 15 minutes. Add a refuel and it's 20 or 22 minutes. To match that with an EV under current circumstances, I need to be sure of finding a charger ready to use and be able to charge from 5% to 100% in that 22 minutes. The infrastructure isn't there yet. And it will probably be there in the motorway services first. If I'm going east-west cross-country, I might be stopping in a little market town. I might be willing to wait longer because it's a nicer place than Watford Gap - but I've got to hunt down the one charger in town and if it's busy because a local has plugged in and gone to the pub for an hour....
    If you're visiting multiple customers/whatever, then you can (in theory) charge whilst doing the visit, thus the charging time is free.
    That only works if here is a free charger near enough to where you are going. On regular trips you may be able to work it out in advance but not everybody has control. Which brings us back to the key point... Not everybody can charge at home. The publicly available charging network isn't yet as convenient as fossil fuel and requires more route planning. The Guardian tried it last month. It will get there - the fact that some of you here can make it work shows that - and there's probably a tipping point at which enough people feel confident about not running out of charge that they will seriously look at an EV option and suddenly the demand on the charging infrastructure will ramp up and it might well see-saw a bit. Yeah, 200 miles on one charge probably will meet the needs of a lot of people (especially for local short runs) and it might only be a once a week charge. But not so great for many in the commercial world.
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 6th Aug 18, 2:21 PM
    • 7,660 Posts
    • 7,023 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Yes it's reliant on there being enough chargers, but it'll be technologically easier to fit more charges than to improve the cars range - we know the range of EV's are now good enough for most and now need to focus on the infrastructure. That infrastructure will grow as the ratio of EV's grows.


    The Hyundai Kona is getting close to the sort of thing I'd be looking at, I've not got the budget for new (nor doing enough miles for the fuel saving to justify it), but it's something I'll be taking a good look at when I upgrade in ~3 years, where a 3 year old one will be comfortably within budget.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 6th Aug 18, 11:58 PM
    • 14,570 Posts
    • 19,624 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    I regularly make a trip of 175 miles to a place with no mains power. Half the time I am towing a ton trailer. I don't stop at all on the way there. I may stop to refuel on the way back but it takes five, possibly ten minutes max. I don't currently buy coffee anywhere, nor do I want to.

    I am considering an electic car for commuting but, in the not so distant future, I think I'm going to have to resign myself to wasting a couple of hours or so waiting for an electric 4x4 to charge on my longer trips.
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • qwert yuiop
    • By qwert yuiop 7th Aug 18, 12:35 AM
    • 2,390 Posts
    • 1,497 Thanks
    qwert yuiop
    How about keeping a little petrol powered generator in the boot? Would that be feasible?
    “What means that trump?” Timon of Athens by William Shakespeare
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Aug 18, 7:46 AM
    • 18,034 Posts
    • 16,351 Thanks
    AdrianC
    How about keeping a little petrol powered generator in the boot? Would that be feasible?
    Originally posted by qwert yuiop
    It's good enough for BMW.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Aug 18, 7:48 AM
    • 7,244 Posts
    • 11,699 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Fun article looking at the EV's that might 'drive' the market forward in the US. (Hopefully they will do a European version?)

    Personally I think there is a lack of knowledge about EV's in the US, and a lack of conviction from the old guard to build them, but if the TM3 becomes the top selling car over the next year (or the top selling car in a month, sometime during 2018/19), then that should make big news and awaken US EV knowledge/awareness ...... but as always I'd expect supply to be the logjam.

    Beyond The Tesla Model 3: What’s The Next “Hit” EV In The US?

    To have a chance of achieving mass adoption of EVs in the US, we need more than just Tesla to start selling high-volumes of EVs. We need a slew of affordable, non-luxury/performance electric models of SUVs, CUVs, small/mid-sized sedans, and even pickups — and we need them from multiple brands. A key challenge, unfortunately, is that there are very few current or future EV models that fit this description and that are likely to achieve a high volume of sales consistently in the next 5 years.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 7th Aug 18, 9:14 AM
    • 10,142 Posts
    • 11,407 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Well lets see how the public react to the new Hyundai Kona.

    Seems to tick most of the boxes the public feel they need.

    SUV / Crossover Bodystyle
    300 Mile Real World Range (64kwh battery)
    All the tech and toys to keep it upto date
    100kw CCS charging, add 200 miles range in 50mins 140 miles in 30mins

    An on the road price of under £30k

    And looking like real world quick delivers rather than vapourware.

    Ordered ours on launch day 2nd Aug, was offered a delivery slot in 2 weeks but pushed it back to 1st Week Sept so its in a 68 plate.

    Should meet the needs of many.
    Originally posted by Stageshoot
    Nice do post back how it is when you have had it a few weeks, I will likely be getting the Kia equivalent, the Niro, in a years or so's time.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 7th Aug 18, 9:14 AM
    • 1,984 Posts
    • 10,367 Thanks
    NBLondon
    That bit Martyn has quoted is spot on... Yes the 3 and the X will make some inroad into their segment and that will fund the next model but there are a lot of market segments stateside with quite different needs. Can any big player get into all of them? Or will they focus on the strengths and one go for commercial and another for luxury?
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 7th Aug 18, 10:42 AM
    • 7,660 Posts
    • 7,023 Thanks
    Herzlos
    I regularly make a trip of 175 miles to a place with no mains power. Half the time I am towing a ton trailer. I don't stop at all on the way there. I may stop to refuel on the way back but it takes five, possibly ten minutes max. I don't currently buy coffee anywhere, nor do I want to.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom

    I think this is the use-case that is going to be the hardest for EV's to deal with, and will likely need to introduce a fast-charge stop somewhere on the route if destination charging never catches up. But by then your usage profile might change; that's a 3 hour each way drive if all motorway (60mph), so probably 4+ if you're talking about B roads (since there's no mains power). Would you in the future be willing to add a 20/30 minute fast-charge stop (so adding about 6% to your journey) if you're knocking your fuel bill down by a factor of 4? That'd easily pay for a coffee and a donut whilst you wait to charge.

    Alternatively, if everyone else goes electric, that'll mean there's some combustion fuel available for the few people that still need to run a range extender. Win, win

    Depending on how long you stay at the site and how secure it is, you could potentially get away with some sort of solar/win generation and battery storage solution. That'd potentially let you get a full charge without grid access, give you power on site, and save you the 10 minute re-fuel stop on the way home!
    Last edited by Herzlos; 07-08-2018 at 10:47 AM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Aug 18, 12:09 PM
    • 7,244 Posts
    • 11,699 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    That bit Martyn has quoted is spot on... Yes the 3 and the X will make some inroad into their segment and that will fund the next model but there are a lot of market segments stateside with quite different needs. Can any big player get into all of them? Or will they focus on the strengths and one go for commercial and another for luxury?
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Hi. I think that might be the problem. Tesla has the large luxury saloon segment sewed up as top dog, and the TM3 looks like it's selling about 50% of the mid size luxury market as well as being top seller in the small & mid size, but Leaf sales aren't doing so well in the smaller cheaper segments.

    There may be some good news having watched Teslanomics this morning, when Tesla and analysts looked at the top 5 cars being traded in for a TM3 and noted that they are much cheaper models from the lower segments, and cars that have traditionally dominated their segments. So TOC might be featuring in people's calculations which is, of course, essential when choosing an EV over an ICE. Just to be clear, good news if lower segment car owners are stepping up by investing (effectively) in TOC rather than ASP, but still bad news unless other car companies can offer something similar, such as the Chevy Bolt, but at a profit of course.

    Here's the Teslanomics episode with the relevant bit from 6:45mins to 11:30mins. Excellent analysis as always from Ben Sullins a data analyst.

    Tesla Short Sellers Lose Over 1B in Stock Rally

    PS - Have to say I'm not worried about the commercial sector since these will be dominated by fleet costs. If EV's are cheaper, then they will takeover at a rate limited only by supply, and it looks like they will be cheaper.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 07-08-2018 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Added a PS
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 7th Aug 18, 12:52 PM
    • 14,570 Posts
    • 19,624 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    How about keeping a little petrol powered generator in the boot? Would that be feasible?
    Originally posted by qwert yuiop
    I thought about that. I haven't done the calculations but I expect it would have to run the whole weekend to put anything worthwhile back into an EV battery and generators are noisy. I was actually wondering if I could use the EV battery to supplement the small scale domestic solar/battery arrangement I have now which needs to be supplemented by a generator during the winter.

    I did the 175 mile drive this morning. It took me just less than three hours. The round trip in an EV would have needed two stops to recharge, significantly increasing door to door journey time.

    However, looking at the bigger picture, over a year I would probably waste less time recharging on longer journeys than I do visiting petrol stations currently.
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 7th Aug 18, 12:59 PM
    • 14,570 Posts
    • 19,624 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Depending on how long you stay at the site and how secure it is, you could potentially get away with some sort of solar/win generation and battery storage solution. That'd potentially let you get a full charge without grid access, give you power on site, and save you the 10 minute re-fuel stop on the way home!
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    I've actually got a very small scale solar set up. See the post above. Expanding the setup to be able to charge a car year round would probably cost more than getting connected to the grid.

    There is a pub down the road and I'm hoping that they will get a couple of charge points fitted for customers that I could use overnight for a fee. I suspect charge points will follow free wifi as a "must have" for pubs and holiday lets etc if they want peoples' business.
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • almillar
    • By almillar 7th Aug 18, 1:07 PM
    • 7,469 Posts
    • 3,052 Thanks
    almillar
    So, again, twice the price of the ICE version that's been on the market a year already.

    IIRC, that was held up as the reason the e-Up! didn't sell...
    Yeah, that's a lazy comparison. Compare the range of the e-Up" vs the petrol version - it's lower. Stageshoot chose the higher capacity battery, there's also a 39kWh one starting at £25k - you have to compare spec for spec. The £4,500 is an acknowledgement that EVs are more expensive TO BUY for now, sure.

    I can stop, have a pee, stretch legs maybe buy a coffee to go and be on the road again in 15 minutes. Add a refuel and it's 20 or 22 minutes. To match that with an EV under current circumstances, I need to be sure of finding a charger ready to use and be able to charge from 5% to 100% in that 22 minutes
    First off, you don't rapid charge to 100% unless absolutely necessary, it's literally a waste of time. Rapid charging figures are often quoted to 80%, because it slows down above that. So yes, plug in, stretch legs, pee etc WHILST CHARGING will give you a solid 50% charge. We've got 50kW chargers at the moment, I think there are 1 or 2 100kW chargers in the UK. My car has 100kW charging already, so when the infrastructure catches up, you'll get what you want. But just get this 100% out of your head, it's rarely necessary or practical. (and you drink your coffee quickly!) I do 30 min stops quite happily.

    How about keeping a little petrol powered generator in the boot? Would that be feasible?
    As AdrianC says, i3 REx (Range Extender) has, basically, a motorbike engine that charges the battery. If you go DIY, it'll be very inefficient to run one that a 3 pin plug would go into.
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 7th Aug 18, 2:34 PM
    • 1,984 Posts
    • 10,367 Thanks
    NBLondon
    Hi. I think that might be the problem. Tesla has the large luxury saloon segment sewed up as top dog.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    It does now... As Adrian pointed out above - if Jaguar bring out an electric XJ, Audi an electric S6 or S8, MB an electric E-class and S-class then it changes - those marques have a loyal customer base to tap into. Electric Lexus and Infiiniti will probably arrive first. In fact, my mind is wondering when BMW will take what they have learned so far to produce an electric 2-series, 3-series and 5-series.
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 7th Aug 18, 2:45 PM
    • 1,984 Posts
    • 10,367 Thanks
    NBLondon
    First off, you don't rapid charge to 100% unless absolutely necessary, it's literally a waste of time. Rapid charging figures are often quoted to 80%, because it slows down above that. So yes, plug in, stretch legs, pee etc WHILST CHARGING will give you a solid 50% charge.
    Originally posted by almillar
    But I can fill my petrol tank to 100% and the last 20% takes approximately the same time as the first 20%. If I fill it to 50% or 80% I might save a minute but then I don't get as much range. So not a like-for-like comparison.
    But just get this 100% out of your head, it's rarely necessary or practical.
    Which was the point - it isn't currently practical and the effective range is reduced as a result. For the sequence of short urban journeys then a shorter top-up to 50% or an overnight charge once or twice a week probably does work.
    Last edited by NBLondon; 07-08-2018 at 2:56 PM.
    Womble #7 - Running Total £9.92 $2.49 €5.31 S//0.10 (that's supposed to be 10 Ukrainian kopiyki but the site is refusing to display the symbol) Bds$0.10 A$0.10 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 0.50 CHF 0.50 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils)
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 7th Aug 18, 2:56 PM
    • 7,519 Posts
    • 4,119 Thanks
    buglawton
    How about keeping a little petrol powered generator in the boot? Would that be feasible?
    Originally posted by qwert yuiop
    The Beamer range extender model has that and it qualifies for full EV London congestion concessions - pennies parking & no congestion charge. It's looking like the top choice for well heeled Londoners.

    You might consider it a case (a first in London?) where the rich get privileged access to public resources.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Aug 18, 4:22 PM
    • 7,244 Posts
    • 11,699 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    It does now... As Adrian pointed out above - if Jaguar bring out an electric XJ, Audi an electric S6 or S8, MB an electric E-class and S-class then it changes - those marques have a loyal customer base to tap into. Electric Lexus and Infiiniti will probably arrive first. In fact, my mind is wondering when BMW will take what they have learned so far to produce an electric 2-series, 3-series and 5-series.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    But all the cars you've mentioned are EV's, not ICE's, and I can't see any of them producing a better ICE car given that Tesla has already 'stolen' the loyal customer base. So the segment looks like it's safely EV now.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 07-08-2018 at 4:25 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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