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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 98
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 2nd Aug 18, 5:52 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Interesting - I wonder if it's also a different tax bracket in some cases - commercial vehicles? I gather that is/was a key factor in Ireland leading to the Land Rover Discovery and Range Rover Classic being built with no side windows and taxed as a van.

    So the Tesla Pick-Up Martyn mentions would probably far exceed the (lowered) standards for emissions and economy but could it hit the price point? From a fleet perspective - you go back to total cost of running it but from a second-car or cowboy-image prospect it might have to look different from that link.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    I'd assume that the Tesla pickup (or any large pickup) will cost way more than the Ford F series, Rams, Silverado's etc, especially since, as you say, the larger heavier vehicles are actually allowed to meet lower standards (crazy!).

    So it'll be down to total operating costs, but also versatility. Tesla will have the ability to power tools, which could be ideal for those 'out and about'. The Workhorse range extender can do this and has excellent specs.

    What little Elon has confirmed is that the Tesla pick up will be a full size (like the F series, not the tiny Rangers we see in the UK). It'll seat 6, and (he may have been boasting, not sure) fit Andre the Giant in the drivers seat (in response to a question from someone who was 6ft 8in if memory serves me).

    It'll pull, like only an EV can pull, and do 400 miles range. Though that range sounds questionable to me, as for a large slab of a vehicle, I'd assume it'll need a 150kWh+ battery pack?

    Edit - Apologies, I missed the link giving the what we know so far on the pick up. Really interesting. M.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 02-08-2018 at 5:56 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 2nd Aug 18, 5:53 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    Would this catch on:
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    The only place that would sell would be Australia. A green bogan's dream car.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 2nd Aug 18, 6:24 PM
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    AdrianC
    Martyn - you've mentioned the Tavares/PSA comments several times now, but let's have a look at the reality, shall we?

    Firstly, Tavares might be the head of PSA, but he was actually speaking at an industry event with his other hat on - chair of the European automotive industry lobby group, ACEA.

    Did he refer to a Chinese trojan horse? Yes. But in the context of the penalties that European corporate average CO2 figures would have on European manufacturers, whose sales are primarily European. Clearly, it would have a much harsher effect on them than on manufacturers whose business is centred elsewhere - outside the effect of the caps. But he also explicitly stated that PSA were on track to meet the proposed caps at the time of introduction.

    He also explicitly referred to the fact that a European manufacturing group who got into trouble would not be able to be taken over by another European manufacturer, because of monopoly/anti-trust regs. That's where the "trojan horse" comes in.

    https://evbulletin.com/content/psa-group-ceo-eu-s-planned-2020-co2-auto-industry-fines-will-create-chinese-trojan-horse

    https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/08/psa-group-ceo-says-proposed-2020-co2-fines-in-europe-would-create-chinese-trojan-horse/

    At about the same time - the first month or two of this year - he also said that PSA's product range would be "100% electrified" by 2025, with "40 electrified vehicles" in the range.

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/r-peugeot-ceo-all-psa-vehicles-will-electrified-by-2025-2018-1

    Yes, "electrified" includes hybrids and PHEVs as well as "full" EVs, but even so - it's a very different spin from that you've put on matters from a single EV-focussed source. It certainly does not suggest a group that is running as scared as you like to make out.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 02-08-2018 at 6:27 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Aug 18, 6:57 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Taking the design, development, manufacturing and other costs into consideration, I doubt that Tesla is even breaking even with Model 3 at current production levels, never mind making a 30% profit.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Just a quick update following the Q2 earnings call. Tesla have suggested a 20-25% gross margin on the Model 3 at an average selling price of about $40k. As the base car starts at $35k and base long range starts at $44k, then I'd assume (guess) that the ASP will be closer to $50k, which seems to substantiate Munro & Assoc's estimated profit figure.

    Hopefully this kind of success will speed up the rollout of more EV's from more companies.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Aug 18, 6:59 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Martyn - you've mentioned the Tavares/PSA comments several times now, but let's have a look at the reality, shall we?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    That's strange, last we 'chatted' you threw out a whole string of false claims and accusations about the Model 3 future production numbers, but seem to now want to switch conversations - PSA fanboi perhaps?


    BTW - the Model 3 is already in 8th spot in the US for all cars, not just the small/midsize luxury segment (where it is top). So I stand by my guess:

    1. Tesla may be taking market share from 'ordinary' cars, not just the small luxury market. I'm only guessing, but the Model 3 could/might outsell all other cars from Aug 18 to July 19 in the US. Might even get close to the Ford F150 pick up. Quite an achievement.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Oh, and just for clarification, my excitement has little to do with Tesla as an individual, but the message that will be made/sent if an EV can get to, or close to top spot in US car sales.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 03-08-2018 at 7:48 AM. Reason: Added a BTW
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Aug 18, 7:46 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Looks like a very big legal battle's a-coming!

    California vows to 'fight this stupidity' as EPA moves to scrap clean car rules

    The Trump administration has moved to weaken US vehicle emissions standards and has set up a major confrontation with California by scrapping its ability to enact stricter pollution standards and mandate the sale of electric cars.

    In one of its most significant efforts yet to curtail policies designed to address climate change, the Environmental Protection Agency has proposed freezing fuel efficiency standards at 2020 levels, removing the requirement that cars and light trucks be able to travel more than 46 miles per gallon of fuel by 2026. The 2020 standard would be around 32 miles per gallon.

    The reversal of an Obama-era deal with automakers in 2012 will also withdraw a waiver California has under the Clean Air Act to exceed the national standards by requiring even more efficient cars. A dozen other states and Washington DC also follow higher standards.

    The EPA said it wants a !!!8220;50-state fuel economy!!!8221; system and has claimed the reversal will have !!!8220;negligible environmental impacts on air quality!!!8221; and even result in thousands fewer deaths on the roads each year. The administration!!!8217;s assertion that lighter, more fuel efficient cars are more dangerous has been disputed by transport experts.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 03-08-2018 at 7:49 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 3rd Aug 18, 7:53 AM
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    AdrianC
    BTW - the Model 3 is already in 8th spot in the US for all cars, not just the small/midsize luxury segment (where it is top).
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Good news for Tesla indeed - the uncorking of all that backlog of pre-deposits is finally starting.

    Once the backlog is totally cleared up, though, it'll be interesting to see what happens ongoing - in the meantime, the Q3/4 and H2 totals will be interesting.
    • RichardD1970
    • By RichardD1970 3rd Aug 18, 9:37 AM
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    RichardD1970
    Still pushing the Tesla fanboi angle I see. Perhaps you should review my positive comments about Jaguar.

    You seem to have some strange ideological approach to this issue, highlighted by your claims to know about EV production, yet admitted not knowing about the Bolt (possibly the most important EV that's come out - maybe the Model 3, maybe the Bolt as it's from an old ICE company), and still claiming the I-Pace took two years to develop and bring to market.

    Clearly I've challenged your automotive knowledge (and found it wanting), and that's upset you, but please don't dismiss reality, for the old boys to:
    1. Develop an EV.
    2. Develop a good EV.
    3. Develop a good EV that they can sell (has adequate demand).
    4. Develop a good EV that they can sell and make a profit on.

    is not an easy thing. Just because they can build 'a car' doesn't mean they can build a desirable and profitable EV.

    The sooner they can the better, and the I-Pace is extremely good news as it competes for a market share perhaps just below the X and above the coming Y, and this will further all EV's.

    So, overall, do I still disagree with your original claim:

    I'm afraid I still do based on GM's and PSA's issues, and the fact that ICE's and EV's (true EV's, not hobbled together attempts to electrify an existing ICE model) are different animals, and require development of the electronics side, particularly the production, or partnership of quality batteries that can meet the already higher demands that customers expect (even Nissan fell foul of this with the 40kWh pack).

    Anyway's, clearly we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, and your decision to go down the pathetic 'fanboi' route screams desperation, so perhaps we should end this now on a note we can both agree, and wish Jaguar all the very best with the I-Pace, which by all appearances and reviews, is an excellent addition to the growing ranks of decent EV's.

    BTW, I'm not sure if you were serious or not about the 'Tesla worrying EV bit', this may just have been a projection of your going down the fanboi rabbithole and assuming such a remark would somehow irk me. This is an extremely over used claim, alongside 'Tesla killer', everytime a new EV is shown to the world. The car market is huge, and demand for quality EV's is far greater than supply, so the I-Pace is not a 'Tesla worrier' in the same way that a Model X is not a 'Jaguar worrier'. They are both ICE worriers.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Ok last post on this (remember now why I avoided this thread)

    I never claimed JLR developed the I-Pace in 2 years. Maybe a bit of lazy language usage by me when I said "a couple of years" but I later quantified it with a quote from the actual person responsible who said it was 4 years from a blank piece of paper to a customer ready car. Not the "at least a decade" that you state. Oh and all new JLR models will be offered as EV/Hybrid from 2020.

    As for the rest, we were talking about the actual physical building of the car down the production line and it has been explained numerous times how there is almost no difference in the processes used and in some cases it is easier.

    So I've never heard of the Bolt, a car that has never been built for or marketed in this country (I have heard of the Vauxhall Ampera, there's one on the work carpark). It doesn't invalidate my knowledge and experience of build processes in the car industry.

    And yes the I-Pace is what I would call an Tesla worrier. It is a direct competitor in the same market sector so will compete directly for customers.

    Not a bad thing at all, as more competition in this sector will only drive quality, research and innovation and spur on the necessary infrastructure changes that are need to make EVs a more viable option for more people.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 3rd Aug 18, 10:42 AM
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    Herzlos
    It's pretty damn cool, but it's more in the El Camino/Aussie "Ute" mould than the F150. Not a great workhorse, at all - forget 8' x 4' sheets of ply or plasterboard or whatever in the back, for a start.
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    You can't get a sheet of 8'x4' in the bed of very many pick-up trucks (there's an 8' bed F-150 but it's not that popular, otherwise you're looking at a van), but you are otherwise right. Part of the appeal of the F-150 is the ride height and go-anywhere ability. Whilst most F-150 users could probably get by with an SUV or a Ute (or a city car), very would buy them because of the image.

    I nearly bought an L200 a while ago before realising that pick-ups are pretty crap for pretty much everything except carrying building materials, bulk bags or pallets. And even then they suck because of the bed height. Beyond the ride height/4wd, they are worse than vans or trailers in every other way. They are popular because of image and nothing more.
    Last edited by Herzlos; 03-08-2018 at 10:47 AM.
    • foxy-stoat
    • By foxy-stoat 3rd Aug 18, 11:29 AM
    • 2,799 Posts
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    foxy-stoat
    Is this still going? Well done for the OP not coming back and sparked a nearly 100 page thread about stuff......now we are talking about 8 x 4 sheets of ply board !!

    LOL
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Aug 18, 12:52 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Good news for Tesla indeed - the uncorking of all that backlog of pre-deposits is finally starting.

    Once the backlog is totally cleared up, though, it'll be interesting to see what happens ongoing - in the meantime, the Q3/4 and H2 totals will be interesting.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    How's the view from the freshly scraped barrel bottom?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Aug 18, 1:02 PM
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    Martyn1981
    So I've never heard of the Bolt, a car that has never been built for or marketed in this country (I have heard of the Vauxhall Ampera, there's one on the work carpark). It doesn't invalidate my knowledge and experience of build processes in the car industry.
    Originally posted by RichardD1970
    I just thought it was strange given your steadily increasing claims at both automotive knowledge and EV knowledge, that you wouldn't know about possibly the single most important EV launched.

    As it turned out they've tried to restrict sales, especially in Europe, and it's become clear that it was just a compliance car.

    But at the time it had greater range than the Leaf, and beat the TM3 to market, and was a 'reasonably' priced 200+ mile family EV from GM - hence why it was so, so important at the time.

    The lesson - GM needed LG to help them build the car, they can't (probably won't) build enough, and it's unprofitable.

    Perhaps the US 'old guard' are hoping to fall back on lower emissions and build quality regs from the Mango-in-Chief, but I suspect that's a short life extension, and they will be killed off completely if they don't make real efforts to build a good, desireable and profitable EV range ....... like what Tesla does.


    Pleased, please, please drop the Tesla worrier or Tesla killer nonsense, the ICE market is massive, more EV's will encourage more EV's. We are a long way off from good quality EV's being threatened by other good quality EV's. If you don't believe me just ask Adrian, he loves to point out how small the EV sales are (not sure why?)
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 3rd Aug 18, 5:34 PM
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    NBLondon
    It's pretty damn cool, but it's more in the El Camino/Aussie "Ute" mould than the F150. Not a great workhorse, at all - forget 8' x 4' sheets of ply or plasterboard or whatever in the back, for a start.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    The only place that would sell would be Australia. A green bogan's dream car.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Exactly... it's the image versus the practicality thing. The very first El Caminos and Rancheros in the early 60s were sort of practical small pick-ups but they grew into this strange idea of a luxury coupe front and a pick-up back which was more for pose value than carrying capacity. (Mind you I did once see a 70s Ranchero that had been adapted as a camera car). Same for the ute (and the South African bakkie) which used to be practical vehicles that you could chuck a sheep or a bale of hay in the back. When I was out there in my student days the Ute was a workhorse. Anyone remember the Ford P100? Based on a Cortina Mk V and then Sierra platform. Imagine that with a Mk 2 Granada nose and you've got the 80s Ford Falcon Ute. But as Gloomendoom says - the tuners started playing games and we end up with the likes of the Maloo - while the workhorse role got taken over by Japanese brands.

    Back on topic. There's all these smaller market segments around now - why else do Mercedes and BMW and Audi have so many variations? They can do it by having common platforms and varying the body. So as the technology matures - will the new players be able to diversify or will a big name suddenly sweep in? Will Nissan be the biggest player if they can take what they learnt in the Leaf and the NV200 van and suddenly pop up with an electric Navarra and the electric Infiniti they say is coming in 2021 or so?
    Womble #7 - Running Total £18.43 $2.70 €5.96 S//0.10 (10 Ukrainian kopiyki) Bds$0.10 A$0.15 NZ$0.55 C$0.89 S$0.20 zl0.02 (Polish grosze) LB0.22 (Bulgarian stotinka) ISKr 5 DKr 1.0 CHF 0.60 R0.10 (Rand not Rupees) KD0.05 (Kuwaiti fils) MDL0.25 (Moldovan bani)
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 3rd Aug 18, 5:44 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Bit more news on the big US car news:

    Manufacturers Cheer Insane EPA Decision To Revoke California Waiver. Will Trump Kill The Electric Car — Again?

    If you are scratching your head trying to understand the administration’s logic, try this guide. New cars are safer than older cars. But people can’t afford new cars because fuel economy rules make them cost too much. So if new cars don’t have to meet higher fuel economy rules, they will be cheaper, which means more people will be able to afford them, which means highway deaths will go down because more people will be riding in new cars that are safer than their old cars. Got that? The explanation gives a whole new meaning to the phrase “tortured logic.”
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 3rd Aug 18, 6:38 PM
    • 18,707 Posts
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    AdrianC
    Exactly... it's the image versus the practicality thing. The very first El Caminos and Rancheros in the early 60s were sort of practical small pick-ups but they grew into this strange idea of a luxury coupe front and a pick-up back which was more for pose value than carrying capacity. (Mind you I did once see a 70s Ranchero that had been adapted as a camera car). Same for the ute (and the South African bakkie) which used to be practical vehicles that you could chuck a sheep or a bale of hay in the back. When I was out there in my student days the Ute was a workhorse. Anyone remember the Ford P100? Based on a Cortina Mk V and then Sierra platform. Imagine that with a Mk 2 Granada nose and you've got the 80s Ford Falcon Ute. But as Gloomendoom says - the tuners started playing games and we end up with the likes of the Maloo - while the workhorse role got taken over by Japanese brands.
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    My favourite bit of ridiculousness was this Seth Effrikan device...


    But we digress.


    Back on topic. There's all these smaller market segments around now - why else do Mercedes and BMW and Audi have so many variations? They can do it by having common platforms and varying the body. So as the technology matures - will the new players be able to diversify or will a big name suddenly sweep in? Will Nissan be the biggest player if they can take what they learnt in the Leaf and the NV200 van and suddenly pop up with an electric Navarra and the electric Infiniti they say is coming in 2021 or so?
    Toyota have pretty much done that with hybridisation, of course, including the Lexus brand.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Aug 18, 1:56 PM
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    Martyn1981
    It was some time back when I asked EV'ers what sort of range was actually needed, as different to the large distances (400 miles+) that some non-EV'ers claim is necessary.

    The numbers seemed to match what I'd seen on an episode of Tesla Time News (a father and son team with Ev's) of about 200 miles to get a good balance of range for daily driving v's extra cost of bigger batts.

    This article seems to be saying about the same, that a range of 200 miles (actually less) is enough for most folk:

    What Is The Optimum EV Range?

    The number of respondents selecting 50 miles as the maximum they would drive without a break was 15.3%

    Those selecting 100 miles were 37.3%

    Combining those two as a group who would not drive any more than a hundred miles without taking a break, they account for 52.5% of respondents.

    The range requirement of more than half of all drivers is, therefore, only 120 miles.

    The respondents choosing 150 miles were 28.8%. Combining them with the previous group creates a group of 81.4% of respondents who would stop after 150 miles or less. The remaining respondents are only 18.7% who would drive for more than 150 miles without stopping.

    The range requirement of more than 80% of all drivers is, therefore, only 180 miles, as 150 miles plus 20% is 180 miles.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 6th Aug 18, 9:28 AM
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    NBLondon
    Hang on Martyn - that's surely about rest breaks on a long run rather than fuel stops... When you can guarantee that you will a) always find a free charger and b) can get a decent charge in the 15 minutes you need to stretch legs and visit the loos and possibly change drivers then it's a valid point. Otherwise it's still about the limit of what you might need to do in a day of "there and back" or "visit 4 customers".
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    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Aug 18, 9:53 AM
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    NigeWick
    Ihis article seems to be saying about the same, that a range of 200 miles (actually less) is enough for most folk
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    My bladder anxiety kicks in at 110-140 miles. I want a vehicle that can do 150 miles at 80% charge traveling at 70mph. I say 80% charge because once one gets above that, the charge rate starts slowing down.

    A break is a good idea every couple of hours anyway as driving, done properly, is tiring.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 6th Aug 18, 12:05 PM
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    Herzlos
    Hang on Martyn - that's surely about rest breaks on a long run rather than fuel stops...
    Originally posted by NBLondon

    They are synonymous here - no-one cares about fuel stops in an ICE car because they don't take long anyway. If you're stopping for a rest within 150 miles, being able to charge whilst you rest gives you the charge time for free.


    If you're visiting multiple customers/whatever, then you can (in theory) charge whilst doing the visit, thus the charging time is free.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Aug 18, 1:01 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Hang on Martyn - that's surely about rest breaks on a long run rather than fuel stops... When you can guarantee that you will a) always find a free charger and b) can get a decent charge in the 15 minutes you need to stretch legs and visit the loos and possibly change drivers then it's a valid point. Otherwise it's still about the limit of what you might need to do in a day of "there and back" or "visit 4 customers".
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Not sure what you mean.

    Basically the Youtube advice from EV'ers seems to contradict the claims form non EV'ers that the cars will only be suitable when they can do 500+ miles on a single charge and recharge in a couple of mins.

    The on-line chats, you-tube vids, the answers I got on here from EV'ers, and the results of that survey/article, all seem to say the same thing about the range of EV's needed to meet the majority of drivers needs, and that seems to be somewhere around 150-200 miles.

    Bigger batts sound great (I certainly fell for that misunderstanding), but why pay so much more, for something you hardly ever use, and could be resolved, instead, by an additional charging rest.

    Personally, my gut said 250-300 miles (last year), but the helpful comments on here about real life usage and re-charging, have 'shown me the light'. They have also made it clear that the extreme range needs, oft touted by a minority claiming to represent a majority, are BS, just the usual negative nonsense spouted about all new ideas and technology.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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