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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 89
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jul 18, 2:58 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Anyway, whilst thinking about it, I find it extremely apt that the only manned vehicles to be drive on the moon to date have been EVs!
    Originally posted by zeupater
    The Lunar Rover only traveled 36Km and could only carry 490kg of payload. They won't catch on till they can do a 250 mile round trip without stopping at the services for a recharge and can tow a caravan.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Jul 18, 4:04 PM
    • 14,804 Posts
    • 20,057 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Hi


    However, that's an example of a using a Reaction Engine where combustion provides thrust as opposed to an Internal Combustion Engine where the combustion process is used to produce mechanical energy .... anyway, if you really want one, then go and buy one, but be warned, when accelerating, they don't do many miles to the gallon!
    Originally posted by zeupater
    It was a tongue in cheek post. However, the rocket motors used on the Saturn 5 moon rockets are classed as internal combustion engines.

    I hope that helps.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Jul 18, 4:48 PM
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    zeupater
    It was a tongue in cheek post. However, the rocket motors used on the Saturn 5 moon rockets are classed as internal combustion engines.

    I hope that helps.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Care to take a little time & supply pointers to a couple of dozen technical references to substantiate that statement which would stand up to a couple of thousand from various engineering & scientific sources that would explain the differences in levels of detail ranging from basic classification to great detail ?

    Although there's a combustion chamber in both, the difference between what is classified and accepted as a Reaction Engine (ie Rocket Motor) & an Internal Combustion Engine is, apart from yourself & maybe a few others looking to create argument, "almost" universally accepted ....

    Anyway, jovial & technical distraction aside, it's good to see that the rumoured H2 announcement of Tesla building a plant in Asia has been confirmed although we're only just into H2 (which is interesting in itself!)... that's the kind of good news I like - the kind that makes the both the vocal anti-EV lobby and the legacy vehicle manufacturers' executives that practice a general 'resistance-to-change' choke a little whilst eating their breakfast!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Jul 18, 5:54 PM
    • 14,804 Posts
    • 20,057 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Care to take a little time & supply pointers to a couple of dozen technical references to substantiate that statement which would stand up to a couple of thousand from various engineering & scientific sources that would explain the differences in levels of detail ranging from basic classification to great detail ?

    Although there's a combustion chamber in both, the difference between what is classified and accepted as a Reaction Engine (ie Rocket Motor) & an Internal Combustion Engine is, apart from yourself & maybe a few others looking to create argument, "almost" universally accepted ....
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Oh dear! Mind your head on that wall. :

    Care to find me an engineering or scientific source that states that a liquid fuel rocket motor is not an internal combustion engine?

    Just one will do.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Jul 18, 6:42 PM
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    zeupater
    Oh dear! Mind your head on that wall. :

    Care to find me an engineering or scientific source that states that a liquid fuel rocket motor is not an internal combustion engine?

    Just one will do.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Absolutely not, if you have access to google then I suggest you use it as I'm not playing your puerile games & you're certainly not going to access a couple of shelves in my bookcase containing relevant sources! ... there are plenty of definitions and explanations of what comprises an 'Internal Combustion Engine' in terms of what we're discussing (ie contained combustion to mechanical power) and what comprises a 'Reaction Engine' (ie combustion providing direct & directional thrust, including contained external combustion), how they work in engineering terms, their components and the way that they can convert energy into motion .... as for papers - there's plenty available!

    I certainly hope that we shouldn't consider your signature as being made by someone needing to take a good long look deep into the mirror as I'm not particularly minded to be dragged down & I'd guess that most others would be either ... now how about a little research - effectively, put up your evidence or ... how does the rest go ? Ah, I remember! ...

    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 11-07-2018 at 6:53 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Jul 18, 6:54 PM
    • 18,429 Posts
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    AdrianC
    Sounds about right, I see more PHEVs than EVs, and I don't particularly like the nose of the EVs. But go ahead and find a dealership that can sell and service the EV (very few), then order one and see how long it'll take.
    Originally posted by almillar
    That's a bit poor of Hyundai. It's almost like they have no faith in the marketability, and have it more as a publicity stunt than a viable model.


    I presume there's a reasonable drivetrain crossover with the Kia Soul EV.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 11th Jul 18, 11:21 PM
    • 2,090 Posts
    • 2,868 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Oh dear! Mind your head on that wall. :

    Care to find me an engineering or scientific source that states that a liquid fuel rocket motor is not an internal combustion engine?

    Just one will do.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom

    Good grief! I'm a non-technical girlie modern history graduate, albeit I've been around a bit. If you don't appreciate the import of the E in ICE, it's not much point trying to enlighten you.
    • Andy L
    • By Andy L 12th Jul 18, 8:48 AM
    • 9,087 Posts
    • 7,674 Thanks
    Andy L
    Good grief! I'm a non-technical girlie modern history graduate, albeit I've been around a bit. If you don't appreciate the import of the E in ICE, it's not much point trying to enlighten you.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Rockets, other than cold-gas thrusters, are a type of internal combustion engine

    ETA: Here's a link to a NASA graphic about the RS-25 Rocket Engine, which has a main combustion chamber which is "in the belly of the engine" which I think we could agree counts as internal

    https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/multimedia/rs-25-engine-infographic.html
    Last edited by Andy L; 12-07-2018 at 9:43 AM.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 12th Jul 18, 11:22 AM
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    zeupater
    Rockets, other than cold-gas thrusters, are a type of internal combustion engine
    Originally posted by Andy L
    Hi

    Agreed, however, there is a huge difference between 'is a form of' and 'is' and the two should not be easily confused ...

    When referring to an 'ICE', there is acceptance as to what is being conveyed (an engine to convert chemical energy to mechanical energy through a process which is fully contained within the engine itself), just as there's acceptance & understanding of meaning in the case of 'Diesel', 'Jet', 'Rocket', 'Pulse-jet', 'Turboprop', 'Turbofan' etc ...

    Anyway, let's not fall further for the normal diversion & distraction tactics being used in an EV thread by those opposed to EVs and get back on track with a positive report on the latest predictions from National Grid ....

    This time last year National Grid data estimated that the electric cars could increase peak demand electricity by as little as 8GW by 2030.

    In its latest report the same amount is likely to be needed only by 2040 if consumers charge vehicles at off-peak times and through vehicle-to-grid technology.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/07/12/national-grid-set-tackle-electric-vehicle-boom-smart-charging/

    ... interestingly, this detail is released & reported on just days after the government were told by an influential technical body that their plan for additional nuclear generation should be reviewed on capacity & cost grounds .... looks like momentum is building for the pro-side in the EV debate!

    HTH
    Z


    # Noted the additional ..." main combustion chamber" etc .... have a look at what process happens in the thrust chamber in the cut-away diagram & consider whether that's also internal ... it's not as if it's an exhaust pipe! .. as mentioned, 'a form of' & 'is' are different!
    Last edited by zeupater; 12-07-2018 at 11:40 AM. Reason: #Noted ... added
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Jul 18, 11:33 AM
    • 18,429 Posts
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    AdrianC
    "as little as 20%". Oh, well, there we go.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 12th Jul 18, 3:53 PM
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    zeupater
    "as little as 20%". Oh, well, there we go.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    On the contrary ... although adding 8GW represents around 15% of current capacity, that's not what's really being reported ....

    What they are saying is that given the same rate of EV roll-out, the full provision of an additional 8GW of generation capacity won't be necessary for a further decade, therefore almost doubling the time available to build capacity ...

    What really needs to be recognised is that the uptake in EVs in the decade between 2030 & 2040 will be far greater than the decade running up to 2030 therefore the implications on total eventual capacity to cope with close to 100% of vehicles being EVs (whenever that may be) is huge ...

    But of course, in things related to the supply of electricity, the obvious retort from those posting in opposition to EVs would be to claim that they in some way know better than National Grid ... fine, I'm all for an alternative, however I suspect that the power expertise at the National Grid don't have much to fear!

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 13-07-2018 at 10:40 AM. Reason: -by
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jul 18, 7:27 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Hi

    What they are saying is that given the same rate of EV roll-out, the full provision of an additional 8GW of generation capacity won't be necessary by for a further decade, therefore almost doubling the time available to build capacity ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Yep, the high electrification scenarios (with almost 100% EV's and a large shift to electrical space heating) seem to all come out at around 600TWh pa, or around 70% increase in generation.

    Obviously the majority of that increase is expected to be supplied during off-peak periods, so the increase in capacity will be lower, just a higher cf (capacity factor). With off-shore wind heading for cf's of 50%+ now with the ever larger WT's (wind turbines), things are starting to look good.

    Let's just hope the government listens to the recent expert reports that a mix of significant nuclear + RE is more expensive than mostly RE or nuclear, and that the RE choice is now pulling ahead on costs (already!)
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jul 18, 7:57 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Couple of news items:

    Researchers In Norway Claim Lithium Ion Battery Breakthrough

    The discovery will lead to batteries that can power an electric car for 600 miles or more, the researchers claim. You can say we have found the X factor weve been looking for. This has enormous potential and is something scientists around the world are trying to make, says IFE research director Arve Holt, according to a report by Bergens Tidende.

    Electric Trucks Are Coming

    Many people still doubt that trucks will become electrified. But according to financial energy specialist Gerard Reid, the adoption of electric vehicle technology in the freight sector will take place faster than expected. He gives four reasons why he is positive about electric trucks. Courtesy Carbon and Energy blog.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 13th Jul 18, 11:21 AM
    • 4,314 Posts
    • 5,735 Thanks
    zeupater
    Couple of news items:

    Researchers In Norway Claim Lithium Ion Battery Breakthrough
    The discovery will lead to batteries that can power an electric car for 600 miles or more, the researchers claim. "You can say we have found the X factor we've been looking for. This has enormous potential and is something scientists around the world are trying to make" says IFE research director Arve Holt, according to a report by Bergens Tidende.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    I find the rate of developments extremely interesting, but not really surprising considering that the concerted move towards electrification seeded the establishment & appropriate funding of so many research projects at the same time in what has effectively become a race between various groups of labs & their industrial partners to gain a lucrative market advantage. The potential returns from licensing & royalties of intellectual property provide an eye-watering prospect for anyone concerned.

    I also find the timing of that announcement & the increasing frequency of others to be particularly appropriate considering the recent exchanges, particularly so regarding ...
    ... But we're talking about historic increases here, not future ones.

    Will capacities for the format rise? Probably.
    Will they rise substantially without major internal changes? You can bet everybody's trying, but the technology is mature enough that it's unlikely - the big capacity increases are likely to be through chemistry changes, not tickles.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    The 'tickles' announced in Norway may not have me laughing yet, but they're certainly good enough to spark a smile, or even a wide grin ... !

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 13-07-2018 at 11:24 AM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • almillar
    • By almillar 16th Jul 18, 12:00 PM
    • 7,550 Posts
    • 3,100 Thanks
    almillar
    That's a bit poor of Hyundai. It's almost like they have no faith in the marketability, and have it more as a publicity stunt than a viable model.

    I presume there's a reasonable drivetrain crossover with the Kia Soul EV.
    I'd say 'that's a bit poor of Hyundai UK, or their dealers'. Hyundai, the car company, has gone to the expense of actually designing and attempting to build the thing. Lack of dealerships to sell and service the EV (including salesmen) lets it down. Same story for Kia - they have 13 dealerships in the UK that can service EVs. It'll be similar, but perhaps not as bad, for other manufacturers. EV servicing is still specialist, because <2% of cars on the road are electric. Specialist, not complicated.

    And yes, I can see similarities between the Leaf and my Soul EV (similar dashboard readout, 3 blue charging lights on dashboard), and in turn, the software on the screens look very similar between the Soul EV and Ioniq EV - there'll be plenty of shared/evolved tech underneath too.


    "as little as 20%". Oh, well, there we go.
    That should not be translated to 'we need 20% more power plants' - that's not the case. Power plants are utterly awful at dealing with peaks and troughs (try switching one off and on again!). Leave power plants running all the time for efficiency, use wind, solar, hydro and batteries to deal with peaks and troughs. Likely more locally than we're used to. I didn't even mention vehicle to grid but you can file that under 'batteries' above.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 17th Jul 18, 7:31 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Nice if this means that yet another of the anti-EV myths gets debunked.

    American Manganese Positions Itself To Lead The Charge Into EV Battery Recycling

    American Manganese (AM) says it can retrieve 100% of the lithium, cobalt, nickel, manganese and aluminum from batteries, like those used in plug-in vehicles, using technology it originally developed to process low-grade manganese ores.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 19th Jul 18, 8:05 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Articles on the Volvo Polestar and Nissan Leaf (2019).

    Polestar 2 From Volvo Electric Sedan With 350 Mile Range

    More Powerful 2019 Nissan LEAF Will Have 200+ Mile Range
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 19th Jul 18, 10:44 AM
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    Herzlos
    A 350 mile range Volvo Crossover would do me perfectly, preferably after 3 years of depreciation


    Adrian - What range would an EV need to have for you to brand it sufficient?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 19th Jul 18, 1:55 PM
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    AdrianC
    Adrian - What range would an EV need to have for you to brand it sufficient?
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    As I've said repeatedly, 300 miles+ real world would be the minimum I'd consider as a replacement for the sensible daily.


    As it happens, the last two days have seen a total of about 350 miles go onto the sensible daily. Yesterday was about 200 of those (virtually all non-motorway), with the car left in a fairly solid 1,000+ space car park for 4-5 hours. That car park has 5 charging points, according to ZapMap. We would have parked in a different, 650+ space, car park - which apparently has no charge points - but it was chock-full.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 19th Jul 18, 2:31 PM
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    Herzlos
    Thanks. So we're within about 2 years of Electric cars being viable?


    And if that car park had more charging points, you'd have been perfectly fine on electric?
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