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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 88
    • almillar
    • By almillar 10th Jul 18, 12:35 PM
    • 7,540 Posts
    • 3,100 Thanks
    almillar
    Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?
    I haven't. Isn't the average annual mileage in the UK 12,000 miles? An EV can manage that without too much charging, and there may or may not be many big journeys in there. Regardless, there are so many people at or below that annual mileage, who an EV would suit. AdrianC and others do stellar mileages, EVs may not be suitable for them at the moment, but they must realise that they are, literally, exceptional.

    fall back on the granny charger
    I went 2 years with a Zoe which doesn't come with a 3 pin 'granny' charger, and the one that came with my Soul sits in the garage. A cup of coffee at a rapid is often less hassle.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 10th Jul 18, 12:45 PM
    • 7,852 Posts
    • 7,211 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Average mileage is closer to 8,000 miles now (7,900 in 2015).



    Assuming people only ever drive to work, and work 260 days a year, that's a 15 mile each way commute. Factor in non-work travel and it's probably under 15 miles round trip.


    So I reckon that about half the population could easily get an electric car and only charge it once a week. Of course, for those people it's not economically viable yet because they are paying so little in fuel.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 10th Jul 18, 12:56 PM
    • 4,307 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    zeupater
    350 mile round trip working day from home to the depths of North Wales today.

    160 Miles to Kimmel Services on the A55 near Llandudno. 40 mins having an early lunch and catching up on emails and voicemails while on the rapid charger. Off around North Wales All jobs done.. home by 5pm with 10% left in battery car on charge overnight from Midnight to 7am (Eco7 Cheap Rate). Got up for work this morning 200 miles range and off we go again.

    Sorry the "There is Nowhere TO Charge Out These" Or "I cant afford the time to stop to charge" as worthless excuses.

    If you cant charge at home overnight and do a lot of miles its a PITA at the moment, and I would not recommend an EV... But No Charging while out and about is a smokescreen there is plenty.
    Originally posted by Stageshoot
    Hi

    I think that just about sums it up ... the use of a 'smoke & mirrors' argumentative approach is a commonly employed strategy amongst those who oppose change of almost any kind ...

    Okay, to be fair, there is a valid argument to be made that the capabilities of EVs currently don't serve everyone's requirements all of the time, but the sensible approach is to test the benefits against the problems to see where the balance lies and where issues exist investigate whether any compromise or change in practice is possible or necessary.

    For the vast majority of people making the vast majority of journeys & covering the vast majority of mileage, the arguments employed against EVs either don't apply or occur at a frequency which is relatively low, therefore totally acceptable to most, however, those opposed to EVs still oppose on the ground that they represent the 'majority' using anecdote, spurious claims & little in the way of supporting evidence which would stand-up to any more than a basic logical appraisal ...

    This obviously leads to posing the question as to why ...

    - Ideology? ... Well that really doesn't fit this situation well, it's not as if the plan would be to move to a less environmentally friendly vehicle or building a completely new industry, it's effectively a unit-for-unit, like-for-like change on environmental grounds.

    - Supporting corporations or corporate positions? ... Says it all in a nutshell, there's obviously plenty of big-business lobbying and populace 'thought-shaping' employed by various interested sectors, so we would be extremely naive to not expect this to happen on a popular forum such as this one ...

    - Argument for argument sake? ... We've all seen it before, it's mainly referred to as 'trolling' when conducted on forums, so on such a subject as EVs we should surely expect it to happen ...

    - Resistance to change? ... Yes, there are people who don't like change of any kind, however, it's appropriate to note that it's pretty normal for those most vocal in opposition to become relatively early adopters once their initial 'fears' have subsided ...

    Whatever the reason for vocal opposition, it's abundantly clear that it's an argument that cannot be won, it's not as if there's going to be a complete U-turn with 'someone' deciding to block an important path to lower emissions!

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 10-07-2018 at 9:15 PM. Reason: +to
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 10th Jul 18, 12:58 PM
    • 560 Posts
    • 606 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    Average mileage is closer to 8,000 miles now (7,900 in 2015).



    Assuming people only ever drive to work, and work 260 days a year, that's a 15 mile each way commute. Factor in non-work travel and it's probably under 15 miles round trip.


    So I reckon that about half the population could easily get an electric car and only charge it once a week. Of course, for those people it's not economically viable yet because they are paying so little in fuel.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    Exactly the target market should be the 30k+ Road warriors, for every one converted to EV that is the same as converting 4 or 5 average mileage motorists.

    These high mileage motorists (Like me @ 50k + a year) are the ones that can benefit most from the lower costs to run and at the same time have the most environmental impact.

    The quicker this sector can be moved to EV the quicker a decent supply of cheaper second hand EVs will appear in the sales channels.
    90k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 10th Jul 18, 1:57 PM
    • 4,307 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    zeupater
    Average mileage is closer to 8,000 miles now (7,900 in 2015).

    Assuming people only ever drive to work, and work 260 days a year, that's a 15 mile each way commute. Factor in non-work travel and it's probably under 15 miles round trip.

    So I reckon that about half the population could easily get an electric car and only charge it once a week. Of course, for those people it's not economically viable yet because they are paying so little in fuel.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    Hi

    Exactly ... and that's what I tried to convey some time ago (In this Post) ...

    High mileage is normally associated with long distances and it's long distances that are the basis of the majority of anti-EV argument ....however, vehicles travelling long distances between stops are inherently doing so more efficiently than those low mileage vehicles performing daily urban commutes ....

    In fuel burned terms, more is logically consumed in vehicles travelling less than average mileage and those doing so in urban environments are creating far more concentrated emissions, just where population density ensures that it's highly detrimental to heath ...

    There's a reason for the move to EVs, it's emissions and their collective impact on ecological, environmental & health grounds ... so isn't it far more logical to concentrate on where benefits can be achieved soonest?

    So, towing caravans & trailers along with the specific requirements of high mileage commuters effectively become irrelevant as they don't apply to either the majority of users, miles travelled or emissions ... effectively those particularly vocal in anti-EV terms need to realise this and accept that although they may simply hold a minority view at the moment, it's likely that it'll become irrelevant in the not too distant future ... after-all, when petrol stations become rarer & rarer due to lack of demand, will it become more convenient to pre-plan journeys between them, or use the (by then) abundance of public charge points or ones at home or in the street outside?

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • g60jet
    • By g60jet 10th Jul 18, 2:24 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    g60jet
    We swapped to a Tesla in March 2017, it's an amazing car. Our petrol bill is now zero from 80 and our electric bill went up by about 30 thats about 1 a day. plus we got free supercharging away from home with a referral code, and you can use mine http://ts.la/nigel5844

    We now use bulb as our green energy supplier and you can get 50 credit free with this link http://bulb.co.uk/refer/nigel4566 They paid off our exit fees too.

    We've not looked back and all you need to do is plug the car in at night and you have a full battery every morning, no scrapping ice off the screen. pre heated or cooled. and the best bit is it's so quiet you can talk normally to the kids in the back etc.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jul 18, 6:55 AM
    • 7,453 Posts
    • 11,921 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Tesla to open Shanghai electric car factory, doubling its production

    Tesla is to open a new electric car production plant in Shanghai, its first outside the US, chief executive Elon Musk said from the city on Tuesday.

    The new auto plant is slated to produce 500,000 cars a year, taking Tesla!!!8217;s total global manufacturing capacity to 1m vehicles a year. Most automotive factories are tooled to produce 200,000 to 300,000 vehicles a year.

    The Shanghai municipal government welcomed Tesla!!!8217;s move to invest not only in a new factory in the city but also in research and development. It suggested it would help with some of the capital costs saying it would !!!8220;fully support the construction of the Tesla factory!!!8221;.

    Volkswagen Group Pushes Into China With New Partnerships To Advance Electric Vehicle Tech

    Volkswagen Group CEO Dr. Herbert Diess shared that the new partnerships are a part of an overarching plan for China, stating that, !!!8220;the Volkswagen Group will strengthen its position in China!!!8217;s important market by systematically expanding its partnerships there.!!!8221; The Volkswagen Group is putting its money where its mouth is, with plans to invest !!!8364;15 billion for new ventures in the lucrative country through 2022 that will be fed into both local investments and new research and development efforts.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Uxb
    • By Uxb 11th Jul 18, 7:30 AM
    • 1,158 Posts
    • 1,243 Thanks
    Uxb
    We swapped to a Tesla in March 2017, it's an amazing car. Our petrol bill is now zero from 80 and our electric bill went up by about 30 thats about 1 a day. plus we got free supercharging away from home with a referral code,
    Originally posted by g60jet
    Jeez how many times do we have to go over this
    You Tesla costs around 65000
    My last ICE car cost me 1100 and I expect to get another 80 to 90K miles out of it.
    I can put a lot of petrol in this car, do a lot of cam belt changes on it to get to the upfront capital cost or PCP cost of a Tesla.
    The extra cost of the petrol used is a total and utter irrelevance at this price differential between electric and ICE.
    Yes I know Tesla' are nice - I know two people who have them - they also have an ICE car of course.

    I mean at this price differential I could even simply scrap my car ever year - forget about the servicing and MOT and just buy another one at 1000 odd each year for the next 10 years and still be quids in.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jul 18, 7:34 AM
    • 7,453 Posts
    • 11,921 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Jeez how many times do we have to go over this
    You Tesla costs around 65000
    Originally posted by Uxb
    Sorry to go over this yet again but -

    The Tesla S is a similar price to new ICE cars in the same luxury saloon segment.

    Nobody builds new second hand cars, so you need to compare like for like.

    New EV's are cheaper than ICE's when all running costs are taken into account.

    Expect old EV's to be cheaper than old ICEV's when they are of a similar age, and all running costs are taken into account.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 11th Jul 18, 8:21 AM
    • 560 Posts
    • 606 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    Jeez how many times do we have to go over this
    You Tesla costs around 65000
    My last ICE car cost me 1100 and I expect to get another 80 to 90K miles out of it.
    I can put a lot of petrol in this car, do a lot of cam belt changes on it to get to the upfront capital cost or PCP cost of a Tesla.
    The extra cost of the petrol used is a total and utter irrelevance at this price differential between electric and ICE.
    Yes I know Tesla' are nice - I know two people who have them - they also have an ICE car of course.

    I mean at this price differential I could even simply scrap my car ever year - forget about the servicing and MOT and just buy another one at 1000 odd each year for the next 10 years and still be quids in.
    Originally posted by Uxb
    But not everyone wants to drive around in a POS that breaks down every few weeks.

    Some of us rely on cars to do many 10s of thousands of miles a year for work, and cant be living with a hope and a prayer banger.

    Nobody is saying you have to change to an EV, if you are happy having your head under the bonnet changing rubber bands and mopping up oil leaks that is your choice.

    But for many the economics are EVs are cheaper, For me a Tesla would not work as the depreciation would be too steep with the miles I add each year but for some its the perfect fit.

    For me EVs save money as I dont have to pay Congestion Charge or Parking in London or the fuel to London, (Total of about 100 a day each day).. And with those miles I would not roll the dice and play bangornomics like you do, but if it works for what you do thats great.. For others is does nor.
    90k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 11th Jul 18, 10:54 AM
    • 2,086 Posts
    • 2,866 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    I think we're back to your previous point about high mileage drivers:
    The quicker this sector can be moved to EV the quicker a decent supply of cheaper second hand EVs will appear in the sales channels.
    I've never had a new ICE car either. I can understand Usb's point but the use of Tesla as an example is a bit misleading. When more Zoes (with owned batteries!), 30kWh LEAFs, Ioniqs, Konas and the like become available hopefully increasing numbers of ex-company/PCP cars will become cheaper.


    I see Skoda are developing EVs and ISTR mention of the Citigo, so EVs appear to be developing as you would expect, with a wider range of vehicles for different markets, just like ICEs. It'll be a long time before they produce something for the niche that is AdrianC..
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jul 18, 11:05 AM
    • 7,453 Posts
    • 11,921 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Interesting article on the impact of Tesla on luxury brand sales. Personally the take away for me, was that these companies (Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Lexus) can all build excellent cars, so they will probably respond sooner rather than later and start pouring out serious volumes of EV's. That will be good for all, with EV's in all the major markets then and volumes increasing, costs reducing.

    Tesla On Track To Pass Porsche In Annual Vehicle Sales In 2018
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Jul 18, 11:19 AM
    • 18,385 Posts
    • 16,602 Thanks
    AdrianC
    When more Zoes (with owned batteries!), 30kWh LEAFs, Ioniqs, Konas and the like become available hopefully increasing numbers of ex-company/PCP cars will become cheaper.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Yep. Battery leasing confusion has not helped the used "realistic" EV market one bit.


    I see Skoda are developing EVs and ISTR mention of the Citigo
    The Citigo (and Seat Mii) is just a rebadged VW Up!, so the surprise is more why it hasn't been available before, given that the e-Up! has been on the market for four and a half years. They did trail an e-Mii last year, but it's not hit showrooms. Can't think why.


    Oh, wait. VW have sold <200 in the UK in that time. Mind you, the fact it's twice the price of a normal Up! probably doesn't help.

    https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/volkswagen_e-up



    It'll be a long time before they produce something for the niche that is AdrianC..
    Not at all. Something at a price point that realistically competes with the sort of cars that people actually buy, while offering a real-world range that allows for perfectly common daily mileages without having to arrange or extend the day around the hunt for charging.

    Is that too much to ask?


    The Leaf and Zoe come very close, especially with the larger battery packs, and Hyundai are definitely on the right lines with the Ioniq - yet every single Ioniq I've seen on the road has been the hybrid.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 11th Jul 18, 12:21 PM
    • 7,540 Posts
    • 3,100 Thanks
    almillar
    Not at all. Something at a price point that realistically competes with the sort of cars that people actually buy, while offering a real-world range that allows for perfectly common daily mileages without having to arrange or extend the day around the hunt for charging.

    Is that too much to ask?

    Again, I think you live in a 'high mileage' bubble, that your driving pattern is very a-typical of driving in the UK.

    The Leaf and Zoe come very close, especially with the larger battery packs, and Hyundai are definitely on the right lines with the Ioniq - yet every single Ioniq I've seen on the road has been the hybrid.

    Hyundai can't keep up with demand for the pure EV, or don't want to build as many as people want to buy. If the Leaf and Zoe (both 40kWh) are very close, you'll be straight down to the Nissan dealership for the 60kW Leaf, the Hyundai or Kia dealerships for the 60kWh Kona or Niro, or the Renault dealership for the next Zoe, if the capacity goes up ;-)
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Jul 18, 12:24 PM
    • 4,307 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    zeupater
    Jeez how many times do we have to go over this
    You Tesla costs around 65000
    My last ICE car cost me 1100 and I expect to get another 80 to 90K miles out of it.
    I can put a lot of petrol in this car, do a lot of cam belt changes on it to get to the upfront capital cost or PCP cost of a Tesla.
    The extra cost of the petrol used is a total and utter irrelevance at this price differential between electric and ICE.
    Yes I know Tesla' are nice - I know two people who have them - they also have an ICE car of course.

    I mean at this price differential I could even simply scrap my car ever year - forget about the servicing and MOT and just buy another one at 1000 odd each year for the next 10 years and still be quids in.
    Originally posted by Uxb
    Hi

    So, in a nutshell you're really arguing against all new vehicles because you either can't afford to buy new or don't want to have a fast depreciating asset!

    If that's the case, then you'd need to use public transport, buy a bicycle (second hand of course!) or walk ... without someone buying new at some time you wouldn't have a car at all!

    As others have mentioned, there are EVs available in various price segments. Would you buy a new ICE Bentley or even a pre-owned one? - probably not as it looks like they likely don't fit your personal needs or ideology, whereas a smaller ICE family hatchback, whether new or pre-owned, may be more appropriate.

    Effectively, I can't see the logic in comparing a highly depreciated ICE vehicle of unknown/unstated specification with a brand new medium to high spec EV vehicle on a basis where the power source is totally irrelevant ..... All that needs to be recognised is that new is new, pre-owned is pre-owned, depreciation is depreciation & running costs are running costs.

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Jul 18, 12:42 PM
    • 18,385 Posts
    • 16,602 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Again, I think you live in a 'high mileage' bubble, that your driving pattern is very a-typical of driving in the UK.
    Originally posted by almillar
    I know very few people who won't do 250+ mile days periodically. Even my 80yo mother does.


    Hyundai can't keep up with demand for the pure EV, or don't want to build as many as people want to buy.
    Originally posted by almillar
    There are 160 EV Ioniqs registered in the UK - and about 5k hybrid and PHEV.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 11th Jul 18, 12:49 PM
    • 7,540 Posts
    • 3,100 Thanks
    almillar
    I know very few people who won't do 250+ mile days periodically. Even my 80yo mother does.


    I repeat, you're in a bubble full of people EVs don't currently suit. There's half a nation out there that it does.


    There are 160 EV Ioniqs registered in the UK - and about 5k hybrid and PHEV.

    Sounds about right, I see more PHEVs than EVs, and I don't particularly like the nose of the EVs. But go ahead and find a dealership that can sell and service the EV (very few), then order one and see how long it'll take.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Jul 18, 1:29 PM
    • 4,307 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    zeupater
    I know very few people who won't do 250+ mile days periodically. Even my 80yo mother does.

    I repeat, you're in a bubble full of people EVs don't currently suit. There's half a nation out there that it does ...
    Originally posted by almillar
    Hi

    I honestly can't remember the last time we did 250+ miles in a day in this country in any of our cars but it must be at least 10 years, realistically even a 150 mile round trip is rare so I tend to agree.

    Regarding 'half a nation' - that probably highly underestimates the effect of high mileage motorists on the national average mileage ... it would be very interesting to remove the (say) upper decile mileage motorists from the calculation to see what effect it has on the annual mileage average ... anyway it's pretty much a moot point as there are regular long-distance/high mileage EV drivers saying that it's currently no real problem for them, and that's before range increase by ~50% as the recent range of larger battery capacity models become available!

    Talk about moving goalposts, the next anti-EV excuse will be "If it can't drive to the moon on one charge ..." - people need to get real, if they don't want an EV then they simply don't have have one (yet) and it's likely that before (/if!) they become compulsory, the very effort & expense of running ICEs on a high mileage basis will become an extremely inconvenient & expensive personal choice ... and of course, for balance, an ICE vehicle couldn't drive to the moon either! ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 11-07-2018 at 1:33 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Jul 18, 2:03 PM
    • 14,784 Posts
    • 20,028 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    and of course, for balance, an ICE vehicle couldn't drive to the moon either! ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    They could and have.

    There and back without refuelling...

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Jul 18, 2:40 PM
    • 4,307 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    zeupater
    They could and have.

    There and back without refuelling...

    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi


    However, that's an example of a using a Reaction Engine where combustion provides thrust as opposed to an Internal Combustion Engine where the combustion process is used to produce mechanical energy .... anyway, if you really want one, then go and buy one, but be warned, when accelerating, they don't do many miles to the gallon!


    Anyway, whilst thinking about it, I find it extremely apt that the only manned vehicles to be drive on the moon to date have been EVs!


    HTH
    Z


    # Note : Looking at the picture I've just noticed the missing launch escape mechanism, so the rocket in question didn't go anywhere near the moon, let alone come back, it was simply delivering a payload to earth orbit!
    Last edited by zeupater; 11-07-2018 at 2:48 PM. Reason: #Note added
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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