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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 87
    • almillar
    • By almillar 9th Jul 18, 1:05 PM
    • 7,604 Posts
    • 3,119 Thanks
    almillar
    I'm not sure cost/kWh has that far to go - the technology is mature enough that individual cells are already very cheap
    Yes, the cells are already down. They may come down a bit more, but I'm thinking more of the economies of scale when EVs are being built on the scale of ICE. Turn it the other way around and think how expensive an IC Engine would be to produce in small numbers.

    If that's the case how come my Renault Zoe 41kw battery is just 15kg heavier than the old 22kw battery. And is in a case the same size as the old 22kw battery so it's interchangable with the old battery

    In your world of limits have been reached such a thing is not possible ?
    Yep, I'm aware that the Zoe has squeezed much more into the same space - that won't happen again (that happened already, in 2017). Zoe was ahead of her time - I'm thinking of other cars being built from the ground up to take EV gear (Zoe sort of was, but also to share as much as possible, including the production line, with the Clio, for cost) - no space for exhausts or gearboxes - this is a rarity at the moment. A car the size of a Zoe (Clio sized) won't squeeze much more kWh in - maybe 60hWh max. Then you're out of space with current tech.

    Reading this thread kind of reinforces my prejudices about electric vehicles. Namely that battery tech just isn't there yet. Li-On batteries begin degrading the moment they pop out of the production line.

    300 charge cycles or so and the internal corrosion has knocked off 8% of their capacity, and realistically what is the range of a brand new fully charged Nissan Leaf with the stereo on loud, the heather blowing heat, and headlights on - 100 miles?
    The stereo on loud. The lights on. Hilarious. Do some basic maths. Start with Watts versus KiloWatts. 150 miles, say, for the 40KWh Leaf. 60kWh coming.

    You're confusing 2010 cautious figures with 2018 real figures. EVs manage their batteries better than laptops.

    Completely unsustainable, of course.
    I think Martin made this point, but I'll make it more politely - relying on fossil fuels is the unsustainable bit. EV subsidies are a financial incentive to move away from them. I've taken £9,500 so far off the purchase price of 2 cars but it has, of course, cost me money.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 9th Jul 18, 2:29 PM
    • 8,343 Posts
    • 7,672 Thanks
    Herzlos
    You may not. But extrapolation is not a great ploy in general.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?


    You say you do, but that extrapolation is not a great ploy.



    And, unless there's a guarantee of decent-rate destination charging, we're talking about 100 miles each way, 200 mile round trip.
    destination charging seems to be experiencing significant growth. I'm seeing more and more places with EV charging spaces.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Jul 18, 3:02 PM
    • 19,043 Posts
    • 17,444 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    Let me turn that round - what percentage of car-owning households can honestly say they never do that, and can foresee no circumstances they'll ever need to do it?



    destination charging seems to be experiencing significant growth. I'm seeing more and more places with EV charging spaces.
    Sure, but it's still a very long way from any kind of guarantee of availability. Even where there is provision, it's a token single charger or handful within many, many more bays.


    I repeat my experiences over the last couple of years - multiple 350-mile day returns to my elderly, ill father in Sheffield.
    The HA flats he lived in had - and still have - no charging provision.
    The care home he moved to - no charging provision.
    Northern General Hospital (1,100 beds) - no charging provision. They actively discourage any and all on-site parking, and it is a nightmare just to find any space there.
    According to zapmap, the nearest public charging provision is the massive Meadowhall shopping centre and Ikea, a hotel or two, and a selection of new car dealerships. None, AIU the map, are reported as having more than two charging points - in Meadowhall's case out of TWELVE THOUSAND spaces... And then you've got to fanny about with buses...

    My nearest city, Hereford, has three (total, single) charging points in public car parks, two in supermarket car parks, and one at a dealership, then further out there are a total of two in the main industrial estate, one at another dealership on the opposite edge. As you get out past the suburbs, there's another at a dealership and one at a hospice.


    And that's assuming they all work and aren't already in use.


    So is zapmap hopelessly outdated, or is destination charging still the rare exception?
    • jeepjunkie
    • By jeepjunkie 9th Jul 18, 4:27 PM
    • 1,436 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    jeepjunkie
    Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?


    You say you do, but that extrapolation is not a great ploy.




    destination charging seems to be experiencing significant growth. I'm seeing more and more places with EV charging spaces.
    Originally posted by Herzlos

    LOL, I tend to see chargers that fall into disrepair and take months to get fixed if ever... Can't say I've seen any new charger installs over the last year or so... Tis very much a post code lottery which fortunately just about works for me at present. Cheers
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jul 18, 4:35 PM
    • 7,697 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Can't say I've seen any new charger installs over the last year or so...
    Originally posted by jeepjunkie
    Just for a laugh

    Tesla Opens 10,000th Supercharger
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jul 18, 4:43 PM
    • 7,697 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Timely article looking at the different chemistries and designs of the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3. I'm surprised at how much lighter the Tesla batts are.:

    Tesla Model 3 & Chevy Bolt Battery Packs Examined
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Jul 18, 5:47 PM
    • 19,043 Posts
    • 17,444 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    In Ontario. That's 10,000 charging points globally, with nothing in that article about how many locations.

    There are 30 locations in the UK currently, according to Tesla's own list, with another 26 "coming soon".
    https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/superchargers/United%20Kingdom
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jul 18, 5:58 PM
    • 7,697 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    In Ontario. That's 10,000 charging points globally, with nothing in that article about how many locations.

    There are 30 locations in the UK currently, according to Tesla's own list, with another 26 "coming soon".
    https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/superchargers/United%20Kingdom
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Yep, it's great news isn't it. Very hard to find a negative too.

    And if you really want to smile, select the destination chargers for the UK, that's a very long list. Or have a look at the map.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Jul 18, 6:03 PM
    • 19,043 Posts
    • 17,444 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Yes, there are more destination chargers. Some friends have recently installed one for the guests at their B&B in the Scottish borders.

    Nobody's used it yet, but they have somebody booked in for late August, I think.


    They're on the list. In fact, looking down it, most places on the list appear to be B&Bs and hotels. Certainly the <10 on HR postcodes are (a handful do meals, too, it has to be said).
    • jeepjunkie
    • By jeepjunkie 9th Jul 18, 6:43 PM
    • 1,436 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    jeepjunkie
    So is zapmap hopelessly outdated, or is destination charging still the rare exception?
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    I find Zapmap of little use on my daily travels. It's a good idea though...
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Jul 18, 6:55 PM
    • 7,697 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Perhaps not all EV batts are the same?
    Timely article looking at the different chemistries and designs of the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3. I'm surprised at how much lighter the Tesla batts are.:

    Tesla Model 3 & Chevy Bolt Battery Packs Examined
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Update on that article with news that won't go down well in the AdrianC homestead:-

    Tesla Model 3 Has “Most Advanced Large-Scale Lithium Battery Ever Produced,” Battery Expert Notes

    According to a seasoned electric vehicle battery expert, Tesla Model 3’s battery pack is a true engineering marvel and work of art — as evidenced in a comprehensive Model 3 battery pack disassembly video by the renowned (and animated) EV pro Jack Rickard of EVTV.

    Even though Jack has been working on electric vehicles for years, he was floored by the Model 3 battery pack noting: “this is the BEST, most ADVANCED large-scale lithium battery ever produced on [the] planet and is YEARS ahead of anything currently in work.” Last fall, Jack had predicted big things ahead for Tesla. Now, it appears his suspicions about Tesla’s industry-leading battery tech advances have (indeed) come to pass.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Jul 18, 8:31 PM
    • 19,043 Posts
    • 17,444 Thanks
    AdrianC
    So "zealot gets excited about new thing"?
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Jul 18, 7:32 AM
    • 7,697 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    So "zealot gets excited about new thing"?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Or alternatively, AdrianC gets upset because another battery expert says nice things about Tesla batts.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Uxb
    • By Uxb 10th Jul 18, 8:34 AM
    • 1,236 Posts
    • 1,350 Thanks
    Uxb
    Have you managed to come up with any figures on how many people do 200+ miles in a single trip?
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    I regularly drive 180 miles at one go stopping on a rural verge at a favorite stopping point for a rest for 15 minutes en-route: Probably twice a month.
    Likewise I'll often in the summer go over 200 miles as a total in a day so 100 there and back - again parking in remote spots off the beaten track so to speak rather than tarmac car parks.

    Always find it funny in these EV discussions how the stats are trotted out that virtually all the road trips in the the UK are less than 15 miles.
    While I living in the rural parts of the UK hardly ever do a trip that is less than 15 miles long.
    Last edited by Uxb; 10-07-2018 at 8:39 AM.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 10th Jul 18, 8:40 AM
    • 8,343 Posts
    • 7,672 Thanks
    Herzlos
    That's why it's the average. And with EVs doing 150 miles now there's more and more trips which are fine to do.
    For those lot trips, how much of your total driving do they make up?
    Would you be happy stopping for 30 mins instead of 15 at a service/petrol station, if you were only paying 4p/mile?

    I live pretty rural but almost all of my journeys are under 100 miles round trip.

    Some people need ranges not yet available from EV. But not many.

    Let me turn that round - what percentage of car-owning households can honestly say they never do that, and can foresee no circumstances they'll ever need to do it?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    You made the claim, so it seems fair that you back it up. I also said regularly rather than ever.

    Going by anecdote; I don't know anyone except sales people and tradesmen that do long enough trips to need recharged whilst out. That seems to be the norm.

    The irony is that for the huge milers, EVsmake even more sense because of the fuel cost savings.
    I still maintain having to stop for a coffee break very 3 hours or so shouldn't adversely affect all but the most iron bladdered. Even trade and sales guys will be able to use that time to do paperwork whilst saving a huge chunk on their fuel costs.

    For everyone else; there's rental ICE cars. I'll probably ditch my ICE when I can afford an EV which can tow.



    Sure, but it's still a very long way from any kind of guarantee of availability. Even where there is provision, it's a token single charger or handful within many, many more bays.


    I repeat my experiences over the last couple of years - multiple 350-mile day returns to my elderly, ill father in Sheffield.
    The HA flats he lived in had - and still have - no charging provision.
    The care home he moved to - no charging provision.
    Northern General Hospital (1,100 beds) - no charging provision. They actively discourage any and all on-site parking, and it is a nightmare just to find any space there.
    According to zapmap, the nearest public charging provision is the massive Meadowhall shopping centre and Ikea, a hotel or two, and a selection of new car dealerships. None, AIU the map, are reported as having more than two charging points - in Meadowhall's case out of TWELVE THOUSAND spaces... And then you've got to fanny about with buses...

    My nearest city, Hereford, has three (total, single) charging points in public car parks, two in supermarket car parks, and one at a dealership, then further out there are a total of two in the main industrial estate, one at another dealership on the opposite edge. As you get out past the suburbs, there's another at a dealership and one at a hospice.


    And that's assuming they all work and aren't already in use.


    So is zapmap hopelessly outdated, or is destination charging still the rare exception?
    Oh I don't doubt there are places where fast charging isn't possible and you'll need to fall back on the granny charger, but that's a symptom of lack of uptake. I'm sure there was a real lack of petrol stations putting off early car drivers.

    But even my tiny town has I think 6. 4 at the train station and 2 in the library. I can't remember going to a multi story cat park that doesn't have them. Hospitals do seem to be behind the curve though.
    Last edited by Herzlos; 10-07-2018 at 8:50 AM.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 10th Jul 18, 9:04 AM
    • 19,043 Posts
    • 17,444 Thanks
    AdrianC
    For everyone else; there's rental ICE cars.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    Well, quite. And that's ball-ache.


    Oh I don't doubt there are places where fast charging isn't possible and you'll need to fall back on the granny charger
    When I say "no destination charging", I'm including 13A socket.


    But even if one's available... A ~175 mile run (half of that 350 round trip) at ~5 miles/kWh is going to need about 12-18hrs of charge from a 13A socket.


    I can't remember going to a multi story cat park that doesn't have them.
    What proportion of spaces? One or two in an entire car park. It's tokenism.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 10th Jul 18, 9:04 AM
    • 2,948 Posts
    • 1,257 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Can't say I've seen any new charger installs over the last year or so...
    Originally posted by jeepjunkie
    Have a look at the map to see where there are public chargers:- www.zap-map.com

    Then there are starting to be systems for people like me who will let other EV drivers charge at their homes for the cost of the electricity. Companies are also starting to install them so that workers can charge during their shift. Then there are shops & supermarkets installing them to0, although that last comes under public charge points.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 10th Jul 18, 9:25 AM
    • 8,343 Posts
    • 7,672 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Well, quite. And that's ball-ache.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    It's harder than having it o your driveway, sure, but it's pretty slick these days.


    But even if one's available... A ~175 mile run (half of that 350 round trip) at ~5 miles/kWh is going to need about 12-18hrs of charge from a 13A socket.

    I'd be surprised if you were nowhere near a 13A socket or somewhere to charge, but I'm sure you'd be able to find an outlier if you tried hard enough - is it representative?

    But even so, you'd only need enough charge to get you to a faster charger rather than the whole trip.


    What proportion of spaces? One or two in an entire car park. It's tokenism.
    What proportion of EVs are parking in the car park? You seem to be implying that we need to support 100% of cars being EV before it becomes viable. Spaces will come with car uptake, and we're still very early on in terms of them being mainstream. Once every other car is EV, every other space will support charging in some capacity.
    Last edited by Herzlos; 10-07-2018 at 11:20 AM.
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 10th Jul 18, 10:12 AM
    • 567 Posts
    • 628 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    350 mile round trip working day from home to the depths of North Wales today.

    160 Miles to Kimmel Services on the A55 near Llandudno. 40 mins having an early lunch and catching up on emails and voicemails while on the rapid charger. Off around North Wales All jobs done.. home by 5pm with 10% left in battery car on charge overnight from Midnight to 7am (Eco7 Cheap Rate). Got up for work this morning 200 miles range and off we go again.

    Sorry the "There is Nowhere TO Charge Out These" Or "I cant afford the time to stop to charge" as worthless excuses.

    If you cant charge at home overnight and do a lot of miles its a PITA at the moment, and I would not recommend an EV... But No Charging while out and about is a smokescreen there is plenty.
    90k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
    • jeepjunkie
    • By jeepjunkie 10th Jul 18, 12:23 PM
    • 1,436 Posts
    • 1,356 Thanks
    jeepjunkie
    Have a look at the map to see where there are public chargers:- www.zap-map.com

    Then there are starting to be systems for people like me who will let other EV drivers charge at their homes for the cost of the electricity. Companies are also starting to install them so that workers can charge during their shift. Then there are shops & supermarkets installing them to0, although that last comes under public charge points.
    Originally posted by NigeWick

    Thanks but I think the issue is free charging in Scotland. Nobody else invests in charge points. CPS take ages to repair faulty units. Fortunately in my part of the world public only charging is working well. I have a home charger but why use it if there are free chargers a 10min walk from the house. Cheers
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