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    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 86
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jul 18, 12:48 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Reading this thread kind of reinforces my prejudices about electric vehicles. Namely that battery tech just isn't there yet. Li-On batteries begin degrading the moment they pop out of the production line.
    Originally posted by Arklight
    I think I've read answers to all these points already on the thread. Not sure how your prejudices can have been reinforced as I've found the comments of EV'ers on here really inspiring, with confirmation that the vehicles (and batts) do exactly 'what it says on the tin'.


    300 charge cycles or so and the internal corrosion has knocked off 8% of their capacity, and realistically what is the range of a brand new fully charged Nissan Leaf with the stereo on loud, the heather blowing heat, and headlights on - 100 miles?
    Originally posted by Arklight
    Does it knock off 8%? I thought the Tesla & Teslanomics studies showed that they could do 200,000+ miles with less loss than that.

    OK, a smaller batt would incur more charges for any given distance, but let's go a bit negative and use your 300 cycles for 8% loss scenario. That would be around 45,000 miles for a 40kWh Leaf (I think), or around 1,000 gallons of petrol and 5k.

    With a replacement batt swop heading for less than 5k (I assume in the next decade), then that sounds OK, but of course at 92% capacity you wouldn't want to swop out the batt. If those 8% range miles were so critical you'd most likely buy a car with a larger range and sell the 92% EV on, or to another family member for whom 80%+ of original range is more than adequate.

    BTW, the heater issue has been covered very recently and seems unimportant. I'm not sure what stereo you have in mind but I suspect permanent hearing loss would be more important than range loss if it was 'booming' enough to have any real impact.


    Talk me round because I really want this technology to work, but as it stands the human race can't find a way to make a laptop battery that will hold a charge after two years, how are we meant to abandon petrol vehicles?
    Originally posted by Arklight
    The laptop battery is not a fair comparison. It's not designed to last long term, but for fast charge, and deep cycling. The EV batts don't truly allow 0-100% use as this impacts life expectancy, and simply avoiding a full charge if not necessary, can lengthen battery life.

    Regarding the abandonment of petrol vehicles, well that's already begun. We may be in the early stages, but EV's now have the performance, range and infrastructure to cope with the requirements of a significant number of drivers, and these factors will only improve going forward.

    Cost is an issue, but (again) referring to the advice/information posted on here by EV'ers, it seems acceptable when all costs of ownership are considered, and for many it appears to be cheaper. As the cost of EV's will only come down (more production, learning curves, and battery cost reductions), then it looks like the fight is over and EV's have won ........ we are just waiting whilst the referee counts very slowly to 10.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Arklight
    • By Arklight 6th Jul 18, 1:22 PM
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    Arklight
    You have obviously been to @AdrianC school of battery engineering.


    Yes the chemical reaction of electricity storage/discharge in your phone/laptop battery is the same as in EV battery packs but to compare the two is just like comparing the internal combustion engine in a petrol lawn mower to a Formula 1 block .


    Li-on is such awful technology that still good enough provide enough power to keep our 2.5 ton SUV on the tail of a V8 Ferrari convertible.....oh and the battery in our SUV has a 8 year unlimited miles warranty and is the SLOWEST car Tesla currently sell in the UK. How much maintenance will the owner of the Ferrari I followed spend on keeping the engine running over the next 8 years I wonder .


    https://youtu.be/j-uf9hf0jBk
    Originally posted by gzoom
    I'm not unimpressed, but realistically, how far can the Ferrari owner go on his tank of fuel and how long does he need to stop for to refill it?

    I think he's at the other end of the country while you're on your 3rd recharge point.

    The battery warranty is impressive, but what does it cover? According to this if it drops below 70% then you get a replacement.

    https://forums.tesla.com/en_GB/forum/forums/battery-warranty-model-s

    70%? A car with a notional range of 300 miles on a flat road and constant speed without the heater or air con on, dropping to just over 200 under the same conditions is just wear and tear?
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jul 18, 3:30 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I think he's at the other end of the country while you're on your 3rd recharge point.
    Originally posted by Arklight
    Or he/she is in the bank arranging an overdraft extension.

    300 miles @ 20mpg = ~75

    300 miles @ 3miles/kWh (7p/kWh E7) = 7
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jul 18, 3:44 PM
    • 257 Posts
    • 246 Thanks
    gzoom
    I'm not unimpressed, but realistically, how far can the Ferrari owner go on his tank of fuel and how long does he need to stop for to refill it?

    I think he's at the other end of the country while you're on your 3rd recharge point.

    The battery warranty is impressive, but what does it cover? According to this if it drops below 70% then you get a replacement.

    https://forums.tesla.com/en_GB/forum/forums/battery-warranty-model-s

    70%? A car with a notional range of 300 miles on a flat road and constant speed without the heater or air con on, dropping to just over 200 under the same conditions is just wear and tear?
    Originally posted by Arklight


    At sub 10mpg with a 18gallon tank range is probably similar, difference been it costs me <5 to refuel versus 100. But the reality is hardly another drives 200 miles+ on UK roads in one go regularly, and if you do you have my sympathies. I did a one day from Leicester to Leeds recently on paper it wasn't far, 230 miles all it, spent nearly 4hr 30min that day on the roads - the car arrived home with 7% charge but that really is about as far as I want to drive these days with a 2 year old.


    Looked at going to GoodWoodFestival of speed next week as have a day off at work on Thursday, 'only' 160 miles each way - but over 6hrs of driving according to Google, forget that, going to stay home instead. Its nothing to do with range/charging, more to do with the fact by the time I dropped my daughter off at nursery, driven down to GoodWood, I'll have a max of 2hrs to look round before driving back up to do pick up, or I could take my daughter, 6hrs+ in a car with a 2 year old...... .


    As for actual battery degradation, Tesla cells are a totally different animal from the cells in your phone/laptop. In the lab most Li-ion cells show noticeable degradation after 500 cycles - so roughly 2 years of use if you charge up every day. Tesla cells in the same lab setting shows less degradation after 3000 cycles and at higher discharge rates!!! (but as we all know all Li-ion cells are the same ).








    In real life that equates to 600,000 miles use before dropping to 80% SOC assuming 200 miles per 100-0% discharge, the battery pack in these cars will out last the rest of the car!!!


    This is now been shown in real life data, where after the initial 5% drop at 50K mark there is very minimal degradation. Yes there is other 'future' battery tech coming but they are 10-20 years away from production, Li-ion tech is already good enough for 95% of the car owning public.


    https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/


    Ultimately it comes down to the car buying public, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford any number of very nice combustion cars, and have owned very very good combustion cars in the past. But ever since trying my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) I haven't wanted to own/drive any thing else but EVs.


    The biggest barriers to EVs is still price, you need to be able to spend 60k+ on a car at the moment to get into something with the range/speed of a Tesla/iPace/eTron. But that is changing, Hyundai are bringing out the Kona at 30K for 200 miles of real world range, Tesla Model 3 at similar price/range is about 12-18 months away from the UK, and VAG will be bringing out their ID concept EVs to production soon.


    This review of the iPace sums it up well, Jaguars first EV isn't simply a good car, it's the best Jaguar you can buy right now. If your interested at all in cars this is a really exciting time to be alive, we're going through the biggest change in personal transportation in over a century, really exciting times ahead .


    https://youtu.be/FILPOpickH4
    Last edited by gzoom; 06-07-2018 at 3:53 PM.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jul 18, 4:11 PM
    • 18,344 Posts
    • 16,583 Thanks
    AdrianC
    But the reality is hardly another drives 200 miles+ on UK roads in one go regularly
    Originally posted by gzoom
    You may not. But extrapolation is not a great ploy in general.



    And, unless there's a guarantee of decent-rate destination charging, we're talking about 100 miles each way, 200 mile round trip.


    and if you do you have my sympathies. I did a one day from Leicester to Leeds recently on paper it wasn't far, 230 miles all it, spent nearly 4hr 30min that day on the roads - the car arrived home with 7% charge but that really is about as far as I want to drive these days with a 2 year old.
    A 2yo? You have my sympathies... I wouldn't want to go down the road and back with a 2yo in the car.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jul 18, 4:14 PM
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    • 11,907 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    A 2yo? You have my sympathies... I wouldn't want to go down the road and back with a 2yo in the car.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I suspect the feeling would be mutual.

    [I apologise, but it was just too good an opportunity to waste. All the best. M.]
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 7th Jul 18, 10:55 AM
    • 2,911 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Or he/she is in the bank arranging an overdraft extension.

    300 miles @ 20mpg = ~75

    300 miles @ 3miles/kWh (7p/kWh E7) = 7
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Drove 270 miles this week. Total cost 2 for parking while I used a Polar 3.6kW post at a hospital.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Jul 18, 12:33 PM
    • 18,344 Posts
    • 16,583 Thanks
    AdrianC
    It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 7th Jul 18, 1:06 PM
    • 14,756 Posts
    • 19,960 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Is the average recent model Ferrari owner really that bothered about the cost of getting from A to B? I doubt they bought the car simply for its acceleration either.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 7th Jul 18, 1:13 PM
    • 14,756 Posts
    • 19,960 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    This review of the iPace sums it up well, Jaguars first EV isn't simply a good car, it's the best Jaguar you can buy right now.
    Originally posted by gzoom
    That rather depends on your priorities. It's a good car but the worst Jaguar you can buy right now if you want a convertible or tow a caravan.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • Arklight
    • By Arklight 7th Jul 18, 1:22 PM
    • 1,464 Posts
    • 2,302 Thanks
    Arklight
    At sub 10mpg with a 18gallon tank range is probably similar, difference been it costs me <5 to refuel versus 100. But the reality is hardly another drives 200 miles+ on UK roads in one go regularly, and if you do you have my sympathies. I did a one day from Leicester to Leeds recently on paper it wasn't far, 230 miles all it, spent nearly 4hr 30min that day on the roads - the car arrived home with 7% charge but that really is about as far as I want to drive these days with a 2 year old.


    Looked at going to GoodWoodFestival of speed next week as have a day off at work on Thursday, 'only' 160 miles each way - but over 6hrs of driving according to Google, forget that, going to stay home instead. Its nothing to do with range/charging, more to do with the fact by the time I dropped my daughter off at nursery, driven down to GoodWood, I'll have a max of 2hrs to look round before driving back up to do pick up, or I could take my daughter, 6hrs+ in a car with a 2 year old...... .


    As for actual battery degradation, Tesla cells are a totally different animal from the cells in your phone/laptop. In the lab most Li-ion cells show noticeable degradation after 500 cycles - so roughly 2 years of use if you charge up every day. Tesla cells in the same lab setting shows less degradation after 3000 cycles and at higher discharge rates!!! (but as we all know all Li-ion cells are the same ).








    In real life that equates to 600,000 miles use before dropping to 80% SOC assuming 200 miles per 100-0% discharge, the battery pack in these cars will out last the rest of the car!!!


    This is now been shown in real life data, where after the initial 5% drop at 50K mark there is very minimal degradation. Yes there is other 'future' battery tech coming but they are 10-20 years away from production, Li-ion tech is already good enough for 95% of the car owning public.


    https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/


    Ultimately it comes down to the car buying public, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford any number of very nice combustion cars, and have owned very very good combustion cars in the past. But ever since trying my first EV (a Nissan Leaf) I haven't wanted to own/drive any thing else but EVs.


    The biggest barriers to EVs is still price, you need to be able to spend 60k+ on a car at the moment to get into something with the range/speed of a Tesla/iPace/eTron. But that is changing, Hyundai are bringing out the Kona at 30K for 200 miles of real world range, Tesla Model 3 at similar price/range is about 12-18 months away from the UK, and VAG will be bringing out their ID concept EVs to production soon.


    This review of the iPace sums it up well, Jaguars first EV isn't simply a good car, it's the best Jaguar you can buy right now. If your interested at all in cars this is a really exciting time to be alive, we're going through the biggest change in personal transportation in over a century, really exciting times ahead .


    https://youtu.be/FILPOpickH4
    Originally posted by gzoom
    Good points. Im not unwilling to be convinced, and Im impressed by the engines, I just have doubts about the batteries.

    If you do go to Goodwood youll need to factor in a good long time time to get into the site. Depending on which way you are going you can easily spend 45 minutes inching down the A27.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Jul 18, 1:23 PM
    • 4,298 Posts
    • 5,715 Thanks
    zeupater
    It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    ... 'everybody else' may be a little disingenuous as it's not a sector mandated requirement and therefore, where competition exists, much comes down to supplier strategies & consumer personal choice ...

    There's the potential for plenty of business models for vehicle manufacturers to supply free or included energy for life or even for energy suppliers to charge usage back to their customer's home account at their own particular unit rate so there'll likely be a major shake-up in the way the 'remote energy supply' forecourt works over the next few decades ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Jul 18, 1:34 PM
    • 18,344 Posts
    • 16,583 Thanks
    AdrianC
    There's the potential for plenty of business models for vehicle manufacturers to supply free or included energy for life
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Tesla - the only manufacturer who've really tried to make much of their own charging network - gave up on that, remember?


    or even for energy suppliers to charge usage back to their customer's home account at their own particular unit rate
    Sure, there's scope to make people pay. We're talking about other people paying, though - sorry, "free".


    so there'll likely be a major shake-up in the way the 'remote energy supply' forecourt works over the next few decades ...
    Absolutely. As EVs become more mainstream, the early-adopter incentives will fade away, including taxation benefits.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Jul 18, 2:27 PM
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    zeupater
    Tesla - the only manufacturer who've really tried to make much of their own charging network - gave up on that, remember?

    Sure, there's scope to make people pay. We're talking about other people paying, though - sorry, "free".

    Absolutely. As EVs become more mainstream, the early-adopter incentives will fade away, including taxation benefits.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    Yet the Tesla charging network is expanding and a 'free' annual energy allowance is credited to the accounts of all Tesla cars currently being delivered in the UK ... doesn't look much like they've given-up yet, remember?

    So your issue is that 'other people pay' ... well that was my point if you bothered to look and understand .... these 'other people' are perfectly able to change their supplier to one that doesn't provide such a service and offers cheaper unit prices - attempting to apply a standard argument employed by anti-microgeneration groups to this simply doesn't hold water ...

    Regarding future developments in automotive energy supply, there's nothing to prevent manufacturers investing considerable sums to provide their offerings with a substantial competitive advantage ... considering the vast sums spent annually on product development, tens or even hundreds of billions invested in the provision of clean energy by the automotive sector would be a strong possibility, as would be the idea of amortising the cost into the purchase price or lease agreement, along the same lines as inclusive servicing etc ...

    In these times of change, change will surely happen - it's just that those resistant to change seem to have issues with acceptance and therefore remain in a condition of denial, with some being exceptionally vocal for various & often suspicious reasons!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 7th Jul 18, 2:41 PM
    • 611 Posts
    • 1,169 Thanks
    ElefantEd
    Given the contribution of ICE vehicles to climate change, one could certainly make an argument that everyone in the world is currently subsidising drivers in their unsustainable mode of transport. And no, even the current huge level of tax on fuel doesn't adequately cover the future costs. So free electricity for EVs is merely rebalancing things somewhat.


    Having said that I am sure that the early adopter incentives will soon be removed, and that EV drivers will be paying a reasonable amount for their fuel.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Jul 18, 2:46 PM
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    Martyn1981
    It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Completely unsustainable ....... isn't that the very reason why we need to move away from ICE's because the true cost is too high and subsidised by everybody else (AGW, NHS, shortened lives etc)?

    I'm sure you are aware of this, and must therefore have been aware that your post was spin and unsupportable. This is why you give the impression on here of being ideologically opposed to EV's since you will post a negative against any comment, even when you know your position can not be supported.

    Is there any chance that you could please look to the bigger picture, rather than being so, so small?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Jul 18, 2:53 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Is the average recent model Ferrari owner really that bothered about the cost of getting from A to B? I doubt they bought the car simply for its acceleration either.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    They might not be concerned, and you might not be concerned, but if luxury high performance cars such as Ferrari's were electric powered, then their impact on the environment (and all of the rest of us) would be reduced massively.

    So better performance (electric motor(s), faster acceleration (electric torque), better handling (lower center of gravity and possibly multi-motor torque steering), lower running costs, and lower emissions.

    A veritable win, win, win, win .......
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Jul 18, 3:28 PM
    • 18,344 Posts
    • 16,583 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Yet the Tesla charging network is expanding and a 'free' annual energy allowance is credited to the accounts of all Tesla cars currently being delivered in the UK ... doesn't look much like they've given-up yet, remember?
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Well, they were completely free.
    Now there's a couple of freebies then you pay.
    Soon...?
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Jul 18, 12:21 AM
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    • 5,715 Thanks
    zeupater
    Well, they were completely free.
    Now there's a couple of freebies then you pay.
    Soon...?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    ... and of course the above-referenced post totally negates the the previous statement that ... "Tesla - the only manufacturer who've really tried to make much of their own charging network - gave up on that, remember?" ... as they've neither given up on expanding their own network nor using it to provide both a sourcing incentive & brand awareness ...

    Anyway, why concentrate on what Tesla have done, they're not the only player in the EV market ... the future potential for any marque to provide 'energy inclusive' packages simply follows on from previous purchasing incentives such as fuel, insurance, servicing etc, whilst limited mileage lease or PCP deals provide an almost ideal fit for included energy offerings, effectively having vehicles provided as part of a known payment 'service' package ...

    As mentioned earlier, in terms of the automotive industry's global plant, tooling & marketing investment, the cost of building low carbon generation plant to provide a competitive & ecological advantage could be relatively low, and there's always the possibility of partnering with energy generation organisations to reduce capital investment .... think of it as being similar to a mobile phone contract with inclusive minutes, texts etc - buy into the package as a service and upgrade the 'device' to a pre-defined schedule .... isn't that the direction that many sectors are moving anyway, so why would automotive be any different!? ... and, of course, unused mileage (as kWh) can be sold at a profit though the national grid, providing an additional revenue stream ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-07-2018 at 12:23 AM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 8th Jul 18, 7:44 AM
    • 2,911 Posts
    • 1,219 Thanks
    NigeWick
    It must be lovely to have everybody else subsidise your transport choices. Completely unsustainable, of course.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Absolutely. Similar to the nuclear and fossil fuel industries getting government assistance. Car battery now full of solar energy again.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
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