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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 84
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 3rd Jul 18, 11:46 PM
    • 19,098 Posts
    • 17,505 Thanks
    AdrianC
    .... so the automotive industry was 1000 years (a millennium!) when Ford released the Model T and they invented manufacturing production lines and the auto-mobile ? ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Clue: Not all vehicles are cars.


    The Venetians were building ships by moving them from stage to stage, with each stage having a defined role, from at least the start of the 12th century. The Chinese had similar ideas at a similar time, too.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Jul 18, 7:01 AM
    • 7,735 Posts
    • 12,311 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Clue: Not all vehicles are cars.


    The Venetians were building ships by moving them from stage to stage, with each stage having a defined role, from at least the start of the 12th century. The Chinese had similar ideas at a similar time, too.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    So all cell/batt chemistry is the same.
    Model T's were Venetian ships.
    And as for Tesla Semi's ...... well, we may never know the truth ......
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 4th Jul 18, 7:24 AM
    • 258 Posts
    • 248 Thanks
    gzoom
    I'm sorry. I assumed you knew the difference between a cell and a battery.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    You are clearly an international expert on battery technology with no peers, frankly am surprised given your knowledge you haven't started a car company to rival Tesla. After all Elon Musk has done pretty well for him self with Tesla and using generic battery tech, I recon given your know how you could easily get better results.

    Elon was only worth $21 billion end of last year, you should be able to hit $40 billion am sure by 2020 if you put your mind to it .

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-net-worth-2017-10
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 4th Jul 18, 7:32 AM
    • 19,098 Posts
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    AdrianC
    So all cell/batt chemistry is the same.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    All commercial LiIon cell chemistry is, yes.



    Model T's were Venetian ships.
    They were built using the same principles - the moving assembly line. Ford did not invent that.



    And as for Tesla Semi's ...... well, we may never know the truth ......
    That's the thing with vapourware.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 4th Jul 18, 8:13 AM
    • 3,521 Posts
    • 2,162 Thanks
    Car 54
    Elon was only worth $21 billion end of last year, you should be able to hit $40 billion am sure by 2020 if you put your mind to it .

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/tesla-elon-musk-net-worth-2017-10
    Originally posted by gzoom

    In competing with Musk, Adrian starts at a distinct disadvantage (unless he is already a muli-millionaire, which I suspect he isn't).



    Musk was already mega-rich when he became involved in Tesla, which after 15 years has yet to make a profit.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 4th Jul 18, 10:52 AM
    • 2,950 Posts
    • 1,262 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Just blow on em, jeez, do I have to think of everything!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Tried weeing on them but as they're underneath, got a bit wet.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 4th Jul 18, 11:32 AM
    • 4,414 Posts
    • 5,883 Thanks
    zeupater
    Clue: Not all vehicles are cars.

    The Venetians were building ships by moving them from stage to stage, with each stage having a defined role, from at least the start of the 12th century. The Chinese had similar ideas at a similar time, too.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    I totally appreciate the history lesson, but find it strange that you labour so hard to correct your own viewpoint on your own spin by attempting to spin the views as being those of others, particularly after my post referenced previous technologies (ie horse-drawn transport), hay, petroleum & batteries ...

    Anyway, it's still the case that the difference between the '12th century' and just about 100 years ago isn't quite a millennium, even less time if you'd more accurately defined the process in question as being of the 14th century .... whilst talking about accuracy, the ships weren't 'moved from stage to stage' in some form of production line at all, the process involved allocating large teams of stage-specialist craftsmen between ships as they reached particular points in the build ... the workforce moved to the product, not the product to the workforce with the build rate being achieved by a combination of decent project management, planned materials supply & a huge workforce (far larger than at comparable shipbuilding sites of the time), however there was little in the way of product standardisation & each unit was effectively a unique craftsman-built product.

    More apt would have been the effective industrialisation of Dutch shipbuilding & their standardised product offerings in the 17th century, or better still the level of standardisation and mass production flow processes in the armaments sector, particularly at the Springfield arsenal, in the mid 19th century which Ford would have been aware of ... isn't it refreshing when you can rely on memory & previous knowledge of something as opposed to referring to a single wiki as a source! ...

    Now, what's this all got to do with EVs? ... well, it's established that in it's early stages FoMoCo & Henry Ford were doing little different to Tesla & Elon Musk, both playing the disruptive technology & volume related economies of scale game to deliver their visions .... products at prices that create a mass market.

    If Henry Ford hadn't done it then someone else would have in time, the same applies for Elon Musk, but someone needs to take the lead and attract all of the negativity from those experiencing the disruption .... after-all, I can't see Mr Ford being too popular with coach-builders or other vehicle manufacturers at the time that he was performing some seriously disruptive stirring in the market, just think of the arguments used at the time regarding the number of filling stations & the distance between them compared to locally grown hay ...


    "nay-say, nay-say, listen to ME, I thrice say 'NAY-SAY' ... I'm really, really clever & I can tell you that with all of the problems I can think of, this newfangled 'horseless carriage' thing - no, it'll never work ... I guarantee it " ... [sort of, with caveats and plenty of spin, avoidance & annoying distraction - of course]


    Anyway, good to see that Tesla are building 5000 model 3's a week and meeting their standardised DPV target of 1000/day ... their suppliers & customers must be happy! ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 04-07-2018 at 11:42 AM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Jul 18, 12:12 PM
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    Martyn1981
    So all cell/batt chemistry is the same.
    All commercial LiIon cell chemistry is, yes.
    Originally posted by AdrianC


    You'll be telling me that Ah's and kWh's are the same next ..... oops, too late.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 04-07-2018 at 12:16 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 4th Jul 18, 12:20 PM
    • 19,098 Posts
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    AdrianC
    Now, what's this all got to do with EVs?
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Not very much, although t'wasn't me that introduced analogies between Musk and the (generally rather loathsome) Ford.



    well, it's established that in it's early stages FoMoCo & Henry Ford were doing little different to Tesla & Elon Musk, both playing the disruptive technology & volume related economies of scale game to deliver their visions .... products at prices that create a mass market.
    Yes, both are great at spinning a relatively minor refinement to pre-existing technology as some kind of great novelty.



    Anyway, good to see that Tesla are building 5000 model 3's a week and meeting their standardised DPV target of 1000/day ... their suppliers & customers must be happy! ...
    Indeed. Better late than never.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 4th Jul 18, 12:24 PM
    • 4,414 Posts
    • 5,883 Thanks
    zeupater
    All commercial LiIon cell chemistry is, yes.

    They were built using the same principles - the moving assembly line. Ford did not invent that.

    That's the thing with vapourware.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    .... (yet again!)

    Let me think ...

    (i) - Cobalt, Manganese, Nickel Manganese, Iron Phosphate ... shall we continue? .... Cobalt Aluminium .... more ? ... Titanate ..... myth busted, even when concentrating on one battery segment, not 'all commercial LiIon cell chemistry is' the same, not even when used in EVs! ...

    (ii) - The workforce moved between ships in specialised groups according to workflow schedule ... the vessels were static until the hull was launched.

    (iii) - Taking the definition of 'vapourware' then everything that exists on the open market met this definition at some stage, including almost everything everyone has ever held or owned and therefore forms a convenient description to use by those resistant to change ... however, I'm sure that there's not many people that don't order product before any are available ex-stock .... Tesla seem to be taking orders on their future products quite successfully, just as the likes of Samsung, Apple, Jaguar, Peugeot, Nissan & countless other's do all over the world on a daily basis .... in short, apart from continuing a crusade against EVs (Tesla & Musk in particular) what's your point, or is that the issue, there is no substantive point, simply argument for argument's sake!?

    Scoring 0/3 looks like an abysmal anti EV fail to me, do try better, we all enjoy a good !

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 04-07-2018 at 3:27 PM. Reason: +' and therefore forms a '
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 4th Jul 18, 12:42 PM
    • 4,414 Posts
    • 5,883 Thanks
    zeupater
    Not very much, although t'wasn't me that introduced analogies between Musk and the (generally rather loathsome) Ford.

    Yes, both are great at spinning a relatively minor refinement to pre-existing technology as some kind of great novelty.

    Indeed. Better late than never.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hi

    So, there is an accepted analogy between the early development of Ford & Tesla and that Henry Ford & Elon Musk were/are in many ways similar characters with similar visions ... however much you may loath both Ford & Tesla, you'll have to swallow the fact that they represent the two most valuable automotive companies in the world (by market capitalisation) and that Tesla are now building at volume market quantities with customers receiving product & still holding a considerable order book ....

    Anyone else you particularly loath that are doing well or we should keep half-an-eye on?...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 04-07-2018 at 12:48 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 4th Jul 18, 12:53 PM
    • 19,098 Posts
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    AdrianC
    I don't particularly loath either Ford or Tesla.

    Ford build a lot of utterly bland conventional cars.
    Tesla build a small number of premium cars.
    Neither's products particularly appeal to me.


    What I do loath is baseless hype. Tesla do some of that, but their echo-chamber fanbase amplify it uncritically - and that's what contributes to their market capitalisation. It's just the usual bubble. <shrug>


    What drags the "traditional" car makers - along with most other long-established industrial corporates - down financially is the millstone of their legacy pension schemes. If you apply the normal rules, then consider that Ford have made ~$20bn profit in the last two financial years. Tesla?
    • almillar
    • By almillar 4th Jul 18, 1:03 PM
    • 7,609 Posts
    • 3,121 Thanks
    almillar
    I do, thanks. They're all the same.
    You've already said they can have different capacities - if I understand you correctly you think that otherwise they're all the same, like a Duracell AA is the same as a Poundland one? You can't seriously believe that?

    So all cell/batt chemistry is the same.
    Well yes, the chemistry in all current electric cars IS the same. Lithium Ion. It produces roughly 3-4 volts. Tesla, Zoe, Leaf, all the same CHEMISTRY.

    (i) - Cobalt, Manganese, Nickel Manganese, Iron Phosphate ... shall we continue? .... Cobalt Aluminium .... more ? ... Titanate ..... myth busted, even when concentrating on one battery segment, not 'all commercial LiIon cell chemistry is' the same, not even when used in EVs! ...
    Is this in the lab or on the road?
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 4th Jul 18, 1:26 PM
    • 4,414 Posts
    • 5,883 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... Is this in the lab or on the road?
    Originally posted by almillar
    Hi

    On the road & commercially available in volume ...


    I believe that there are at least 3 of those mentioned currently available in EVs from different manufacturers (if anyone can be bothered to check they can!)..... then again there are laptops, power tools, shavers, coin-cells etc too ...

    Just as you can buy different contents in the same standard size tin, standard size batteries/cells can (and do!) have different chemical compositions, but it doesn't stop there either as there are numerous patents covering the construction of the internals even when the chemistry is the same ....

    Some of the potential offerings in the lab are interesting, particularly when looking at power/packing/clustering density, some are further developments on the chemistry front ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Jul 18, 4:37 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Well yes, the chemistry in all current electric cars IS the same. Lithium Ion. It produces roughly 3-4 volts. Tesla, Zoe, Leaf, all the same CHEMISTRY.
    Originally posted by almillar
    If the CHEMISTRY was all the same, then the components would all be the same and in the same ratios. So how come Tesla/Panasonic has a lower level of cobalt?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 4th Jul 18, 4:41 PM
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    Martyn1981
    The S curve cometh? At a growth rate of approx 50%pa.

    Over 3 Million Electric Cars On The Road You Driving One Yet?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 4th Jul 18, 5:12 PM
    • 2,181 Posts
    • 3,086 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Silverwhistle have you tried searching for charging points near the furthest away grounds? I bet there's something in the same town; a train station or supermarket or something. It might mean parking a bit further away though
    Originally posted by Herzlos

    Sorry, thanks, only just noticed this and the other flurry of posts on here.



    Nearer the time I will have a look, but I'm going to wait a couple of years unless the car gets written off! Everything is changing fast, including my ability to play as I get nearer SPA in a few years time, so the issue may not arise unless I go into coaching!
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 4th Jul 18, 5:30 PM
    • 2,181 Posts
    • 3,086 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Whilst I'm here I thought I'd mention an article I saw in the Italian newspaper La Stampa talking about a report from the European Automobile Manufacturer's Association regarding the unrealistic objectives of the EU with regard to electric cars. I haven't seen any report on this in the UK press (it came out end of June).


    I haven't read the full report, but it points out that market penetration is higher in higher income countries. It mentions the barrier of affordability, but it doesn't seem to address what they, the industry, can do about that. Their points on infrastructure availability and the requisite investment by governments seem reasonable though.


    I haven't got the full link but the report can be found on the acea.be site
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 4th Jul 18, 6:41 PM
    • 19,098 Posts
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    AdrianC
    If the CHEMISTRY was all the same, then the components would all be the same and in the same ratios. So how come Tesla/Panasonic has a lower level of cobalt?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Thank you for proving my point. The very presence of cobalt and focus on the precise proportions just shows that the basic chemistry is the same - lithium cobalt oxide, rather than the promising-but-not-really-commercial-yet lithium iron phosphate or lithium manganese oxide. And that's before we get into the really weird-and-wonderful world of all the others including lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide, lithium nickel cobalt aluminium oxide, lithium titanate and lithium sulphur <and breathe>...



    Yes, Panasonic (and others) have been tickling the proportions in the cathode - but that doesn't change the basic chemistry, any more than putting a bit or less more lemon into a lemon drizzle cake turns it into a chocolate and walnut cake.


    http://benchmarkminerals.com/panasonic-reduces-teslas-cobalt-consumption-by-60-in-6-years/


    The fact that Panasonic are at the forefront of this tickling shows that EV battery demands are right up at the cutting edge of science, precisely because this is a very big problem - which proves rather than changes the basic point I made somewhere up there, which started all of this esoterica - that Tesla's range is simply down to shoving a metric shedload more generic cells into a battery.


    When the basic chemistry changes, what will the knock-ons to charging circuitry, battery design etc be? <shrug>
    Will they be easily droppable-innable without major redesigns, meaning (like 18650->2170) new-model-only? <shrug>
    Will they mean a big step forward to addressing the issues? Yes, definitely.
    Will we find out soon? Yes, definitely.
    Will that "soon" be months or years? Years, and quite probably onto a second handful of fingers unless somebody makes a seriously Nobel-worthy breakthrough or two very, very soon.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jul 18, 6:41 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Thank you for proving my point. The very presence of cobalt and focus on the precise proportions just shows that the basic chemistry is the same - lithium cobalt oxide, rather than the promising-but-not-really-commercial-yet lithium iron phosphate or lithium manganese oxide.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Basic chemistry .... starting to walk back your claims I see.

    I assume you start and maintain all these nonsense arguments just to disrupt this thread.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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