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    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 68
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Apr 18, 6:43 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Here's a thought... perhaps journos can be wrong...?


    So, we're all agreed that PSA do actually have some fairly substantial background in the EV market, and haven't just sat with their thumbs up bums?


    Here's a couple of old articles on the La Rochelle projects. They're in French, but Google will make a decent fist of translating it if you're not particularly francophonic.


    1994 - (Les Echos - French equivalent of the FT) - https://www.lesechos.fr/05/10/1994/LesEchos/16744-130-ECH_voiture-electrique--psa-prend-une-longueur-d-avance-en-europe.htm


    1999 - (l'Argus - French mainstream car mag) - http://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/la-rochelle-lance-les-forfaits-voiture-electrique-5006.html


    Tell me that wasn't way ahead of its time...


    As for that Swedish scalextric track... Mmm. I wonder what current it can transfer without posing a risk to wildlife, cyclists, dog walkers?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Also, you need to let PSA know that they are wrong, after all, this whole discussion started because they fear they won't be able to compete against companies that have supported EV's.

    So it seems you want to pick a fight with me, the journo's and PSA themselves. Bit silly don't you think - just like this whole daft, pointless argument.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Apr 18, 6:46 PM
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    Martyn1981
    As for that Swedish scalextric track... Mmm. I wonder what current it can transfer without posing a risk to wildlife, cyclists, dog walkers?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Here's a suggestion, before you spread more of your usual EV negativity, perhaps read the article?

    Säll said: "There is no electricity on the surface. There are two tracks, just like an outlet in the wall. Five or six centimetres down is where the electricity is. But if you flood the road with salt water then we have found that the electricity level at the surface is just one volt. You could walk on it barefoot."
    PS - do you normally walk a dog or cycle down a main highway?


    BTW, still waiting for you to answer the questions:

    Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

    1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

    3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

    I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 12-04-2018 at 6:53 PM. Reason: Added a PS
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Apr 18, 7:17 PM
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    AdrianC
    PS - do you normally walk a dog or cycle down a main highway?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    You've never been to extra-urban Sweden, have you...?

    This is the E45. It's the main - the only - spinal highway up and down the country. Think of it as the M1, but without the competition from the A1 or M6 or M40 or M5 or...

    https://goo.gl/maps/XnSFm7HXNDA2

    It's busy on that stretch. Turn around, and there's another vehicle.
    (Oh, and, yes, that is the entirety. There's not a second, separated, carriageway the other side of the trees. But there might be älgar.)

    "There is no electricity on the surface. There are two tracks, just like an outlet in the wall. Five or six centimetres down is where the electricity is...
    You're right, I missed that bit. But that just raises a shedload of questions over the mechanics of it, and how it'll work with drivers who are incapable of driving in exactly the right place on the road. And that's without contemplating multi-lane roads, because they're dalahest-skit there.

    I don't even want to think about the infrastructural costs of installing this everywhere, let alone how this could possibly ever be monetised. Mind you, I'll bet you won't even admit that this kind of lateral thinking simply confirms that range and charging really IS a showstopper outside of urban use. And we all know that any kind of private car is an unsustainable idea inside towns. The grown-ups have been working on practical solutions to that for nearly a quarter of a century. But that kind of large-scale rethinking has all got a bit distracted by the shininess of marketing in the last few years...
    Last edited by AdrianC; 12-04-2018 at 7:27 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Apr 18, 8:15 AM
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    Martyn1981
    You've never been to extra-urban Sweden, have you...?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    As always, you are wrong, I have family in Sweden. Would you like some ointment for that burn? But again, perhaps you should read the article before commenting further:

    In Sweden there are roughly half a million kilometres of roadway, of which 20,000km are highways, Säll said.

    “If we electrify 20,000km of highways that will definitely be be enough,” he added. “The distance between two highways is never more than 45km and electric cars can already travel that distance without needing to be recharged. Some believe it would be enough to electrify 5,000km.”

    You're right, I missed that bit.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Of course you did, that's what happens when someone posts made up nonsense and negativity all the time without bothering to even read up on the subject they are trashing first. It's not your first time, and I doubt it'll be your last. Perhaps you can go to your new fall back and simply claim that all journo's are wrong?


    BTW, on the subject of made up nonsense, I'm still waiting for you to answer those questions:

    Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

    1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

    3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

    I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Apr 18, 8:16 AM
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    Martyn1981
    I don't even want to think about the infrastructural costs of installing this everywhere, let alone how this could possibly ever be monetised.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    You could just read the article?

    At a cost of €1m per kilometre, the cost of electrification is said to be 50 times lower than that required to construct an urban tram line.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Apr 18, 8:36 AM
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    AdrianC
    So they're estimating 20,000km of mostly low-traffic single-lane road, at Eur1m/km. I make that Eur20bn, unless it's Eur1m per lane (which I suspect it is), so Eur2m/km to do both directions of that road.

    The UK has 25,000km of mostly high-traffic multi-lane road, just within the trunk route network. Let's assume an average of 2.5 lane per direction. So that's Eur62.5-125bn. The Highways Agency's total budget was a bit under £2bn in 2014-15. OK, that's only for England, but...

    But that isn't the entire infrastructural cost, is it? If only part of the road network is electrified, then the demand is greater, because the cars will be recharging instead of simply running on the supplied current. That Eur1m/km doesn't include the distribution and generation cost. And as for the monetisation of it...?
    • almillar
    • By almillar 13th Apr 18, 12:36 PM
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    almillar
    Does Volvo count...?
    Ah yes. It does. Point being, if you look beyond the badge and under the metal, theres loads of 'Chinese' in our cars, even our Peugeots, already. I think we would agree that Peugeot are a bit late complaining about a 'Chinese invasion'.
    It was a joke, because Adrian calls us fanbois if we say anything nice about Tesla.
    I know, I know, but you just need to be careful not to wash over Tesla's failings. They ARE behind on Model 3 production. They HAVE had issues. They ARE improving on it. You'll sound like a fanboi if you only ever say positives and ignore the negatives.

    by developing them, rather than re-badging some Mitsu's, then they might not be in that position. They dragged their heels, as have many (most?) of the old school.
    And again, my point is even just that simple rebadging job, plus the electric van (what's Peugeot's Berlingo) plus the list AdrianC gave you, shows that, in my opinion, they're actually ahead of a lot of the old school. Behind Renault? Sure. Behind BYD? Sure. But amongst the mainstream car manufacturers, they haven't been too bad in terms of electrification. I think you're very much downplaying them having an electric car on the road in 2010. Very few manufacturers can say that, by whatever means.

    Edit - Just a thought, but if you are right, and I'm wrong about PSA and their EV support, then that means PSA are wrong too, since they claim they need protection from the EV boys.
    Those 2 statements aren't mutually exclusive. This is why you argue so much! I argued with 'not big supporters', your statement, not the contents of an article. Peugeot would argue that Europe led them down the diesel path with taxation and regulations, and I can see that argument.

    Wow, so much faux outrage from the PSA fanbois. Still flogging away at a dead horse!
    Evidence being provided is met with this? Not good.

    that's what happens when someone posts made up nonsense and negativity all the time without bothering to even read up on the subject they are trashing first.
    Adrian has just been posting loads of positivity about EVs over the last couple of days. Just they've been about PSA EVs, so it doesn't suit your argument.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Apr 18, 2:20 PM
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    Martyn1981
    So they're estimating 20,000km of mostly low-traffic single-lane road, at Eur1m/km. I make that Eur20bn, unless it's Eur1m per lane (which I suspect it is), so Eur2m/km to do both directions of that road.

    The UK has 25,000km of mostly high-traffic multi-lane road, just within the trunk route network. Let's assume an average of 2.5 lane per direction. So that's Eur62.5-125bn. The Highways Agency's total budget was a bit under £2bn in 2014-15. OK, that's only for England, but...

    But that isn't the entire infrastructural cost, is it? If only part of the road network is electrified, then the demand is greater, because the cars will be recharging instead of simply running on the supplied current. That Eur1m/km doesn't include the distribution and generation cost. And as for the monetisation of it...?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Tell them they are wrong, not me (but read the article first), all I asked you to answer was:

    Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

    1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

    3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

    I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Apr 18, 2:26 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Ah yes. It does. Point being, if you look beyond the badge and under the metal, theres loads of 'Chinese' in our cars, even our Peugeots, already. I think we would agree that Peugeot are a bit late complaining about a 'Chinese invasion'.


    I know, I know, but you just need to be careful not to wash over Tesla's failings. They ARE behind on Model 3 production. They HAVE had issues. They ARE improving on it. You'll sound like a fanboi if you only ever say positives and ignore the negatives.



    And again, my point is even just that simple rebadging job, plus the electric van (what's Peugeot's Berlingo) plus the list AdrianC gave you, shows that, in my opinion, they're actually ahead of a lot of the old school. Behind Renault? Sure. Behind BYD? Sure. But amongst the mainstream car manufacturers, they haven't been too bad in terms of electrification. I think you're very much downplaying them having an electric car on the road in 2010. Very few manufacturers can say that, by whatever means.



    Those 2 statements aren't mutually exclusive. This is why you argue so much! I argued with 'not big supporters', your statement, not the contents of an article. Peugeot would argue that Europe led them down the diesel path with taxation and regulations, and I can see that argument.



    Evidence being provided is met with this? Not good.



    Adrian has just been posting loads of positivity about EVs over the last couple of days. Just they've been about PSA EVs, so it doesn't suit your argument.
    Originally posted by almillar
    Still flogging this dead horse, god you love arguing don't you.

    My comment matched the article and the host of additional articles I provided you with.

    Your counter was to mention the same Mitsu three times!

    If you are right that PSA are massive supporters of EV's, then they have nothing to worry about do they?

    But if it's OK with you, I'll continue to agree that they have not supported EV's enough (like most of the old school), and now are complaining, when it's their own fault.

    I'll note here that these plans are nothing new, and that auto manufacturers have had a long time now to make changes so as to remain in compliance. They haven't done so for two main reasons: moving towards plug-in electric vehicles would lower their profit margins significantly; and the assumption of many was that fraudulent diesel car emission figures would partially help in meeting the goals.
    If the article is wrong, then tell em. Adrian has already claimed that the journo's are wrong. But you won't change my opinion on this matter, I agree with the article.


    Edit - Even better idea - join disqus and tell all of the commentators that they are all wrong too (most of them are big supporters of RE and EV's). Here are some good comments:

    So let me get this straight: in the former decade, no action on GHG emissions could be implemented because China was doing too little; now no action on GHG emissions can be implemented because China is doing too much.
    Our Chinese brethren did not have exclusive god given rights to develop EVs. Mr Tavares and company in the European car industry choose to exclude themselves from this endeavour, now they are going to have to pay for such arrogance.
    Life is a !!!!! and then you die!
    The carmakers that don't offer enough EVs will be brought to their knees by the buying public, when they stop buying their ICE vehicles.

    That threat is far larger than the small fines the EU will leverage against them.
    The national champion carmaker in France isn't PSA but Renault, which is leading the EV charge. PSA are feeling a cold draft and beginning to panic.
    How many times have we heard BS such as those from auto execs? I've already lost my counting.
    "Tavares went on to state that a major Europe-based auto manufacturer could be brought "to its knees" by such an approach, and as such it was dangerous." "

    Indeed, being late to the EV party will prove existentially dangerous to many existing ICE manufacturers.

    But that is no excuse. Tavares can stick his fear-mongering where the sun don't shine.
    All the best.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 13-04-2018 at 3:42 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Apr 18, 2:31 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Adrian has just been posting loads of positivity about EVs over the last couple of days. Just they've been about PSA EVs, so it doesn't suit your argument.
    Originally posted by almillar
    There is no argument, I simply posted an article and said I agree with it. You mistakenly jumped in confusing re-badged cars with EV support, and now can't find a way out, so keep on flogging away.

    You could just agree to disagree on PSA and move on .... I've tried repeatedly with other news and articles, though Adrian is now going on and on and on and on with mistake and false claim after mistake and false claim about that too because he didn't read it first, and has made more false assumptions - waste of time perhaps?

    Calm down, move on, please!

    PS - Take a joke about the fanbois thing, after all I've found this long argument nothing but a complete joke fabricated around a deliberate attempt to make 'haven't supported the EV idea' into something it isn't. If you can't see how ludicrous the discussion is, then you've had a sense of humour failure.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 13-04-2018 at 3:43 PM. Reason: Added a PS
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Apr 18, 5:47 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Some excellent EV news for our European siblings in this weeks Carbon Commentary newsletter:

    Very, and I mean very, cheap charging potential for Spanish EV owners:-

    1, Spain vehicle charging. Utility Iberderola said it would install 25,000 chargers, mostly in homes, by 2021. Customers can buy electricity from them at 3 € cents per kilowatt hour for 01.00-7.00 am charging, about one fifth of the average European domestic power price. The company says that this implies a cost of €0.50 for 100 km driving, about one tenth of the price of petrol for a similar distance. Iberderola also announced a partnership with a large petrol retailer to put rapid (50 kW) chargers on its forecourts. 50 kW provides enough electricity in just over 20 minutes to drive 100 km.

    and an interestingly well coordinated approach to EV's, RE and grid storage from Renault (who are supporters of EV's):-

    7, Vehicle to grid. Renault said it was launching a trial of ‘vehicle to grid’ electricity on the Portuguese island of Porto Santo, close to Madeira, later this year. Porto Santo is small, with a population of only 5,000 spread over 40 square kilometers, but this experiment is intended to show the viability of building 100% renewable islands, using vehicle batteries as the main storage medium. 1,000 cars would provide about 10 hours of typical Porto Santo electricity consumption if used continuously. ‘Second life’ batteries from local cars will also be deployed at the island’s wind and solar farms.
    It's great to see that the potential of EV's as a form of balancing and storage for variable RE generation is being taken seriously already.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Apr 18, 6:01 PM
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    Martyn1981
    This article pretty much says what we've been saying on this thread, that the current grids can cope with EV's, and even the current generating capacity can cope, so long as charging is done when demand is traditionally low.

    Use Europe’s Electricity Underuse To Promote Electric Cars

    Some extracts:

    Electricity distribution networks in Europe run at well below their full potential, finds a new study from the Regulatory Assistance Project (RAP). The findings show that the unused network capacity could be utilized for charging electric vehicles with little or no need for additional capacity. Smart pricing and smart grid technologies will be the keys.
    The good news is that EVs are a flexible load that can be charged at any hour when the vehicle is not in use. Shifting EV charging to periods when existing resources are readily available would keep incremental investment in infrastructure to a minimum. All consumers, not just those with EVs, would benefit from spreading the costs of existing infrastructure over more load and minimizing risky new investment.
    The results suggest that these systems are operating at 50-70% of their potential. To place this in perspective, all current light-duty vehicles could be electrified with little or no need for additional network capacity.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • almillar
    • By almillar 16th Apr 18, 12:32 PM
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    almillar
    If you are right that PSA are massive supporters of EV's,
    Again, I've had to correct you on what you're reading. I never said this. You've taken against Peugeot based on one article, and neither AdrianC nor myself have been able to convince you with any facts about the company that they're not 'not supporters'. I've done all I can and you're just putting words in my mouth.

    But if it's OK with you, I'll continue to agree that they have not supported EV's enough (like most of the old school), and now are complaining, when it's their own fault.
    Once again, I hadn't even mentioned the complaining when I called out the 'not supporting' comment.

    You mistakenly jumped in confusing re-badged cars with EV support
    Yes, here's what we were actually talking about. Yes. It is MY opinion that selling a re-badged Mitsubishi since 2010 DOES count as EV support. Relative to the rest of the car industry. YOUR opinion is that it does not. NEITHER of our opinions is fact, so what we do is agree to disagree.

    You could just agree to disagree on PSA and move on .... I've tried repeatedly with other news and articles
    I'm trying, but you keep putting words in my mouth.

    PS - Take a joke about the fanbois thing, after all I've found this long argument nothing but a complete joke fabricated around a deliberate attempt to make 'haven't supported the EV idea' into something it isn't. If you can't see how ludicrous the discussion is, then you've had a sense of humour failure.
    I questioned one thing (that YOU said, not the article), and provided a decent argument, I thought. You could have agreed to disagree long before your umpteen links - I posted none.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Apr 18, 4:26 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Again, I've had to correct you on what you're reading. I never said this. You've taken against Peugeot based on one article, and neither AdrianC nor myself have been able to convince you with any facts about the company that they're not 'not supporters'. I've done all I can and you're just putting words in my mouth.
    Originally posted by almillar
    You have your opinion on PSA, oddly based on Mitsubishi's, I have my opinion. When I read the article it matched my opinion, and so do the vast majority of subsequent comments on the article.

    I won't change your opinion, and never had any intention of doing so. However, your opening remark was to claim that my opinion, was wrong, and that that was a fact - a fact supported by naming the same Mitsu (not PSA) 3 times:-

    Are you forgetting the Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON, on the market in the UK since 2010, when most other manufacturers were sat back laughing?! You can't argue your opinion as fact.
    Originally posted by almillar
    so I've defended my opinion, whilst you argue against it.

    I'm not in the slightest bit bothered that you have a different opinion to me, and you should have the same approach regarding my opinion (and the vast majority of commentators on the article).

    However, as I mentioned before, if it really does bother you so much, then stop flogging a dead horse on here, join Disqus, and tell everyone on Cleantechnica, as I think this minor side issue built on a faux argument interpretation of my 'haven't supported EV's' is nothing more than a waste of time and space.

    Edit - Comments for that article have now closed, so it seems that 'they' have moved on. Perhaps we should take the hint and do the same. M.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 16-04-2018 at 4:42 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 16th Apr 18, 4:38 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I don't have an issue with your opinion differing from mine, only your repeated claims of fact, that are wholly untrue:-

    I questioned one thing (that YOU said, not the article),
    Originally posted by almillar
    From the article:

    I’ll note here that these plans are nothing new, and that auto manufacturers have had a long time now to make changes so as to remain in compliance. They haven’t done so for two main reasons:
    A nice bit of scaremongering and deflection of blame, I suppose. What Tavares doesn’t note there is that PSA Group and most other European auto manufacturers have been doing nothing serious to date when it comes to plug-in electric vehicles. The strategy has seemingly been to just make a “big announcement” every few months or years (depending on the automaker) and then stall as much as possible afterwards. It’s no wonder that China-based firms seem to be on the expansion as of late — most firms in Europe and the USA have been caught sleeping.
    If the company is truly on track to meet the fleet-level carbon dioxide goals, though, then why would Tavares make so many of the recent comments that he has made? If the company’s plans regarding plug-in electric vehicles are serious, then why all the attempts to stall the fines?
    I've already posted many of the comments, but this one deserves a re-airing:

    The national champion carmaker in France isn't PSA but Renault, which is leading the EV charge. PSA are feeling a cold draft and beginning to panic.

    I strongly suspect your first reply/statement was made in haste, was without reading the article, and was before you realised all 3 cars were the same Mitsu. From that point on all of your replies appear to be dead horse flogging, as you couldn't see how to dig yourself out of a hole (psst, you can't, just stop digging) and so it has gone on and on and on.

    We have different opinions on this matter, our opinions are of little to no importance, so get over it.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 16th Apr 18, 6:03 PM
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    AdrianC
    You have your opinion on PSA, oddly based on Mitsubishi's, I have my opinion.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    How about we forget all about Mitusbishis, re-badged or otherwise?

    If you did not know who it was, what would you say if somebody new to this thread mentioned a mainstream manufacturer who has had an electric van on the market since 2013, with an electric people carrier version since last year?

    Would you say they had "done nothing serious to date"?

    Would you still say that if you then found out they'd had the predecessor on the market as an electric van, in several countries, between 1998 and 2005 - replacing an electric version of the predecessor to that, launched in 1991? And who had had electric versions of their mainstream car range through the 80s and 90s, including urban car-sharing programs?

    Those are cars which have nothing to do with any other manufacturer, totally in-house.

    That manufacturer's third current electric model (since 2016) is, however, a partnership - with a small manufacturer who have also been selling a 22-seat electric bus since 2011, the people behind the single biggest urban electric-car-sharing scheme in the world, with damn near 10% of the world's total car-share-scheme subscribers and using a 250km-range four-seater since 2011 - the direct successor to those urban programs.

    "Nothing serious"...?
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 17th Apr 18, 12:05 AM
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    Martyn1981
    How about we forget all about Mitusbishis, re-badged or otherwise?

    If you did not know who it was, what would you say if somebody new to this thread mentioned a mainstream manufacturer who has had an electric van on the market since 2013, with an electric people carrier version since last year?

    Would you say they had "done nothing serious to date"?

    Would you still say that if you then found out they'd had the predecessor on the market as an electric van, in several countries, between 1998 and 2005 - replacing an electric version of the predecessor to that, launched in 1991? And who had had electric versions of their mainstream car range through the 80s and 90s, including urban car-sharing programs?

    Those are cars which have nothing to do with any other manufacturer, totally in-house.

    That manufacturer's third current electric model (since 2016) is, however, a partnership - with a small manufacturer who have also been selling a 22-seat electric bus since 2011, the people behind the single biggest urban electric-car-sharing scheme in the world, with damn near 10% of the world's total car-share-scheme subscribers and using a 250km-range four-seater since 2011 - the direct successor to those urban programs.

    "Nothing serious"...?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Ah, you're back, thought I'd lost you for a moment there, so just to remind you, still waiting for your answers:

    Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

    1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

    3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

    I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 17th Apr 18, 12:07 AM
    • 6,784 Posts
    • 10,939 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Tesla batts continue to look good.

    Tesla Batteries Have 90% Capacity After 160,000 Miles, May Last For 500,000 miles

    You still hear this from fossil fuel advocates trying to scare people out of buying electric cars, but a survey of 350 Tesla drivers by a European contingent of Tesla owners reveals that such concerns are not warranted. Actual Tesla owners report about a 5% drop in battery capacity by the 50,000 mile mark but after than, the rate of degradation drops considerably. On average, cars with 160,000 miles on them still have 90% of their battery capacity remaining. Projecting forward from the real world data available, a Tesla battery should still have 80% battery capacity after 500,000 miles of driving, the group claims. The vast majority of internal combustion engines would have stopped functioning long before then.
    Assuming second hand car buyers are happy with a little less range, this suggests that the batts will 'never' need replacing during the lifetime of the cars.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 17-04-2018 at 7:09 AM. Reason: Added an end paragraph
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 17th Apr 18, 8:08 AM
    • 17,185 Posts
    • 15,488 Thanks
    AdrianC
    ...and then you wonder why I call you a fanboi.


    Your interest in the sustainable future of transport stretches no further than fawning at the feet of your favourite sleb, and gawd help any facts or reality that get in the way of that deification.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 17th Apr 18, 11:34 AM
    • 17,185 Posts
    • 15,488 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Tesla Model 3 production problems "down to automation", and human labour is the answer.


    No, really.
    Yes, excessive automation at Tesla was a mistake. To be precise, my mistake. Humans are underrated
    by Elon Musk

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/16/elon-musk-humans-robots-slow-down-tesla-model-3-production



    That Grauniad article links to this CBS article, with an interesting 7min interview with Elon, walking down the line and in the factory control room.https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-tesla-model-3-problems-interview-today-2018-04-13/


    So production is getting onto track - finally. Good. But it's taken two and a bit weeks of the CEO taking direct personal control of the production facility, and sleeping in a meeting room in the factory...? This says a LOT about the business itself. It says that this is a CEO who can't delegate and, when he does, makes bad choices about who he delegates to. We are already over two years from Model 3 deposits opening, and closing on a year from the first production cars being built. Cars will allegedly be delivered to all of the initial deposit-holders within 3-6mo, which is 6-9mo later than promised.



    But is THAT feasible? Do the sums... 17,000 cars to date, 2,600/week at the moment. In three months time, at that level, that'll take us to about 50,000 cars in total. At full speed, 5,000 cars a week, that's 65,000 in 13 weeks. Yet nearly half a million deposits were placed within the first few months in 2016?
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