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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 66
    • Uxb
    • By Uxb 29th Mar 18, 9:01 AM
    • 1,034 Posts
    • 1,089 Thanks
    Uxb
    The state of the public chargers - let alone their availability is going to have to improve considerably.

    I look ever now and then at the Zap map
    Some charging facilities seem no more than some sort of virtue signal by the provider claiming how green they are.

    Charging stations which are supposedly available but in reality are not, only open in office hours, only available to customers etc.
    There is one single one in my local town
    It has 580 comments under it from users - and as we know its mostly the outraged and dissatisfied that post review comments: in this case its various non functionalities continuing for weeks at a time.
    • Andy L
    • By Andy L 29th Mar 18, 9:28 AM
    • 8,827 Posts
    • 7,262 Thanks
    Andy L
    One news item I saw yesterday suggested 400-500 car fires per day in the US ...... but that sounded a bit high, or perhaps the person saying it was?

    Regardless, statistically, I think EV fires are not a problem.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    According to wiki there are 260million passenger vehicles in the US so that's quite low as a %age.
    That's about 10x the number of cars in England and we have 300 fires per day (unfortunately that's a UK number edit: and I think all vehicles) Even allowing for the vagaries of international statistics comparisons they seem lower than us.
    Last edited by Andy L; 29-03-2018 at 9:37 AM.
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 29th Mar 18, 11:53 AM
    • 1,074 Posts
    • 785 Thanks
    rtho782
    The state of the public chargers - let alone their availability is going to have to improve considerably.

    I look ever now and then at the Zap map
    Some charging facilities seem no more than some sort of virtue signal by the provider claiming how green they are.

    Charging stations which are supposedly available but in reality are not, only open in office hours, only available to customers etc.
    There is one single one in my local town
    It has 580 comments under it from users - and as we know its mostly the outraged and dissatisfied that post review comments: in this case its various non functionalities continuing for weeks at a time.
    Originally posted by Uxb
    If you have a charger at home it's all moot.

    I charge mine at home every night. I don't give a hoot about nearby public chargers. When I go shopping I will use them just because they are there and are free and generally give me a nice spot near the shop.

    When I go long distance, I've never been unable to rapid charge at ikea/nissan/motorway services.
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    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 29th Mar 18, 12:06 PM
    • 6,996 Posts
    • 6,227 Thanks
    Herzlos
    You could apply this to ICE cars too. But as above, it's about cost to repair vs going and buying another car. Why would an interior, spring, wishbone, anti roll bar, last any longer in an electric car than an ICE?
    Originally posted by almillar
    I'm assuming the unecomonical repair bar is a lot higher with an ICE - It's not worth replacing the interior if the engine is on it's last legs as the engine replacement will write off the car.

    With an EV, the motor is much more reliable, will last longer and will be cheaper to replace, so the car will likely need to be a lot older before it's not worth replacing interiors.

    The battery may still kill it off, but they seem to be coming with service plans and can be refurbed fairly easily. I'd assume that when they hit mass market you'll be able to buy 3rd party/OEM battery packs that will be drop in replacements with 2/3x the capacity by the time your original one fails.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 29th Mar 18, 12:25 PM
    • 13,759 Posts
    • 18,048 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    That's about 10x the number of cars in England and we have 300 fires per day
    Originally posted by Andy L
    Around 65% of these 300 fires are started deliberately to cover criminal activity.

    Source
    ďNever argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.Ē - Mark Twain
    • almillar
    • By almillar 29th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    • 7,288 Posts
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    almillar
    If you have a charger at home it's all moot.
    It absolutely isn't, if you're on a long journey!

    I'm assuming the uneconomical repair bar is a lot higher with an ICE - It's not worth replacing the interior if the engine is on it's last legs as the engine replacement will write off the car.
    Again, it works vice-versa. If the electric motor, or battery, is on its last legs, it will wouldn't be worth replacing the interior either.

    I would agree that it could be argued that there's more that can go wrong in an ICE car, that there are more points of failure. In the future we may be able to show that electric cars do go further, but so much of the car is actually the same as an ICE car, that those failures will still happen. And there are added, expensive parts which can also go wrong. You say the bar is a lot higher - I think 'may be a bit' is the best we can say at the moment. The SpeakEV forums are a good source for the costs of some of the big bits under the bonnet of electric cars.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 29th Mar 18, 1:23 PM
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    Martyn1981
    It absolutely isn't, if you're on a long journey!



    Again, it works vice-versa. If the electric motor, or battery, is on its last legs, it will wouldn't be worth replacing the interior either.

    I would agree that it could be argued that there's more that can go wrong in an ICE car, that there are more points of failure. In the future we may be able to show that electric cars do go further, but so much of the car is actually the same as an ICE car, that those failures will still happen. And there are added, expensive parts which can also go wrong. You say the bar is a lot higher - I think 'may be a bit' is the best we can say at the moment. The SpeakEV forums are a good source for the costs of some of the big bits under the bonnet of electric cars.
    Originally posted by almillar
    The motor pack (motor, inverter etc) is far simpler and cheaper and presumably easier to replace than an ICE engine and gearbox.

    The motors should last very long, that's what electric motors do.

    The battery pack is different, that can be compared more closely to fuel costs for an ICE, as the expensive batt pack allows the EV to run on cheap leccy, v's a cheap fuel tank allowing an ICE to run on expensive petrol/diesel. So it's almost a down-payment/investment.

    Also, evidence so far, from the Tesla's is that the batts are good for many 100's of thousands of miles, showing around a 6% loss of capacity over 200,000 miles or so.

    Also, that's a 6% loss of capacity, not efficiency, so it's now just an EV equal to a 'new' EV with a slightly smaller batt pack (not an EV with an inefficient batt pack). This could even be factored in at purchase by going for a slightly larger battery pack option. This is something suggested to those considering a home battery pack, where they should size the pack appropriately for the second decade of use, not the first.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 29th Mar 18, 1:58 PM
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    rtho782
    It absolutely isn't, if you're on a long journey!
    Originally posted by almillar
    Very very few of my journeys exceed the ~120m real world range of my 30kW leaf.

    Of those that so (in round trip terms) 95% of them are going to Costco and Ikea at lakeside, where I charge for free at the rapid at Ikea. There are about 3 other rapids (although not free) in a 5 mile radius of that one as backup.

    The other 5% of journeys we take my partner's diesel car for, because we are too lazy to use the rapids at services, but when her lease is up she will get an EV too and we will just hire a car for the weekend.
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    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 29th Mar 18, 4:03 PM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 1,148 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Some charging facilities seem no more than some sort of virtue signal by the provider claiming how green they are.
    Originally posted by Uxb
    Government has offered money to put in chargers so companies, councils and etc are installing them and not making sure they are actually available for EVs to charge at them.

    Ecotricity has got motorways covered and now Polar are shoving them in Holiday Inns as well as other locations. I use the one at Abingdon Waitrose and the Ace roundabout by the A3 Chessington. Shell & BP are starting to put rapids on their forecourts. Lidl and some other outlets are starting to put rapid chargers in. I also know that some Sainsbugs supermarkets have 7kW chargers too.

    Still a long way to go but I think we're starting to get the infrastructure needed for a more rapid takeup of BEVs. But, Ecotricity do need more rapid chargers on the motorway system to keep up as I have had to wait at Mimms, Ferrybridge and Scotch Corner for vehicles to finish charging and vacate the charger point.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 30th Mar 18, 6:26 PM
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    Martyn1981
    A study on autonomous EV's for New York concluded that smaller batts were better. that sort of fits in with what the EV'ers on here said about finding a suitable battery size, rather than always aiming for bigger and bigger.

    Best Way To Slash Urban Emissions & Energy Usage? Autonomous Electric Taxis Are The Answer


    Edit - and I know where they could find 300,00 test vehicles, though the EV conversion cost might be too high:-

    What Will Volkswagen Do With The 300,000+ Diesel Cars It Has Repurchased In America?
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 30-03-2018 at 6:28 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Apr 18, 12:16 PM
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    Martyn1981
    This is a fun article. PSA, who haven't supported the EV idea, are now complaining that the sneaky Chinese (who have) might take market share by supplying cars that PSA doesn't build.

    Perhaps PSA should stop complaining and build a load of EV's then?

    PSA Group CEO Says Proposed 2020 CO2 Fines In Europe Would Create ďChinese Trojan HorseĒ
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Apr 18, 12:24 PM
    • 17,199 Posts
    • 15,510 Thanks
    AdrianC
    PSA, who haven't supported the EV idea
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Yes, they have.


    PSA have been building electric cars since the 1980s, and had them in showrooms for Joe Public to buy, in the 90s. They currently have three different electric cars and an electric van in the range, and have committed to 40 electric models in the range by 2025, with every single model from all four brands available electrified.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Apr 18, 7:06 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Yes, they have.


    PSA have been building electric cars since the 1980s, and had them in showrooms for Joe Public to buy, in the 90s. They currently have three different electric cars and an electric van in the range, and have committed to 40 electric models in the range by 2025, with every single model from all four brands available electrified.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Sorry, but nope, PSA are not supporters of EV's, they've done very little.

    BTW, any chance you are going to provide the info about Tesla trucks I've asked for many times?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • almillar
    • By almillar 10th Apr 18, 12:55 PM
    • 7,288 Posts
    • 2,944 Thanks
    almillar
    Sorry, but nope, PSA are not supporters of EV's, they've done very little.

    Are you forgetting the Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON, on the market in the UK since 2010, when most other manufacturers were sat back laughing?! You can't argue your opinion as fact.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 10th Apr 18, 1:05 PM
    • 17,199 Posts
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    AdrianC
    ...or the electric Berlingo/Partner, available as van or peoplecarrier?
    Or the electric Berlingo and Saxo in the 90s?
    Or the La Rochelle urban-car-pool projects using C15s, AXs, 205s, 106s back in the 80s?

    PSA have been slow with hybridisation - but let's not forget that the hybrid4 versions of the DS 5, 3008, 508 were dropped, on the back of poor sales. Ultimately, hybrids have mostly been driven by the Japanese and, primarily, US markets - and PSA simply aren't there.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Apr 18, 1:10 PM
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    Martyn1981
    ...or the electric Berlingo/Partner, available as van or peoplecarrier?
    Or the electric Berlingo and Saxo in the 90s?
    Or the La Rochelle urban-car-pool projects using C15s, AXs, 205s, 106s back in the 80s?

    PSA have been slow with hybridisation - but let's not forget that the hybrid4 versions of the DS 5, 3008, 508 were dropped, on the back of poor sales. Ultimately, hybrids have mostly been driven by the Japanese and, primarily, US markets - and PSA simply aren't there.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Hiya Adrian got any of that proof yet about your truck claims?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Apr 18, 1:12 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Are you forgetting the Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON, on the market in the UK since 2010, when most other manufacturers were sat back laughing?! You can't argue your opinion as fact.
    Originally posted by almillar
    Nope, not forgetting anything, just saying that PSA are not great supporters of EV's, unlike say Renault or Nissan.

    "Mitsubishi i-Miev, Citroen C-Zero and PEUGEOT iON" - did you just name the same car 3 times?

    There's a big difference between compliance cars to meet range efficiency mandates and supporting the EV market/future.

    Edit - here's a timely article, not opinion, fact!

    PSA Group (Peugeot-CitroŽn-DS-Opel) creates new EV division ahead of launching its first electric cars

    The PSA group, which includes the French automotive brands Peugeot, CitroŽn, DS and now Opel, have fallen behind competitors in the transition to electric vehicles, but they have now created a new EV division ahead of launching their first next-gen electric car.

    Peugeot owner PSA to launch electric car division

    In a bid to catch up with other carmakers, many of which have comprehensive EV rollout plans already in place, PSA confirmed yesterday that the new division will start work in 2019 and aim to develop at least 40 electric vehicles by 2025.

    GM sells Opel to PSA !!!8211; What does this mean for the European Bolt?

    Manager also reported (via Automotive News) that GM may allow PSA to license its EV technology, which could work out nicely for all concerned. PSA has no plug-in vehicles of its own, although it does sell rebadged versions of the aging Mitsubishi i-MiEV as the Peugeot iOn and Citroen C-Zero.

    Electric Peugeot 208 to lead PSA EV push from 2018

    Thus far, PSA's most notable foray into electric cars was with the CitroŽn C-Zero and Peugeot iOn, rebadged versions of the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, in 2011.

    PSA creates EV business unit

    Alexandre Guignard is senior vice president of the BU, responsible for the profitable development of these operations, in all regions, and will head initiatives to help meet the group's CO2 targets, in compliance with the 2020 and subsequent European standards for CO2 emissions.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 10-04-2018 at 1:46 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 10th Apr 18, 1:22 PM
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    AdrianC
    There's a big difference between compliance cars to meet range efficiency mandates
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Which don't exist in Europe.


    Fact. Apart from the very headline is simply wrong.


    The quoted sentence immediately goes against the headline, with that "next-gen" (whatever that means) qualifier.

    And, oh, look - the article's headed with a picture of an electric Berlingo - a car that's been in showrooms in van form since 2013/4, having been at motorshows since 2012. Follow the link to the 2016 Electrek article, and it mentions two "new platforms". The EMP1/CMP platform is about to enter production with the DS3 replacement and next Corsa, while the EMP2 platform has been in production since 2013.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Apr 18, 1:31 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Which don't exist in Europe.



    Fact. Apart from the very headline is simply wrong.


    The quoted sentence immediately goes against the headline, with that "next-gen" (whatever that means) qualifier.

    And, oh, look - the article's headed with a picture of an electric Berlingo - a car that's been in showrooms in van form since 2013/4, having been at motorshows since 2012. Follow the link to the 2016 Electrek article, and it mentions two "new platforms". The EMP1/CMP platform is about to enter production with the DS3 replacement and next Corsa, while the EMP2 platform has been in production since 2013.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Let me see, who should I believe, the press or you?

    Brings me neatly back to asking yet again, can you please now provide the evidence on which you made all of those 'factual' Tesla truck claims please?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Apr 18, 1:50 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Interesting battle heating up in the states where Trump's decision to reduce the future fuel efficiency standards for cars (across the manufacturers range) will probably harm the sales of EV's, or at least slow down any increase in their take up IYSWIM.

    EPA!!!8217;s war with California proves America needs a carbon tax

    Last week, Trump!!!8217;s EPA announced that it will repeal the vehicle fuel efficiency standards set under the Obama administration and replace them with weaker requirements. EPA also threatened to revoke California!!!8217;s ability under the Clean Air Act to impose its own greenhouse gas standards. If they do so, California!!!8217;s attorney general will sue the EPA.
    Probably worth mentioning that Trump appointed an anti-EPA man as head of the EPA, he's also put an anti-financial regulation bod in charge of their financial regulation. He seems to be appointing folk purely so that they can dismantle the work of Departments that he doesn't agree with, or could harm the profits of his friends.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 10-04-2018 at 1:52 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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