Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 60
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Mar 18, 4:26 PM
    • 17,368 Posts
    • 15,703 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Nope. You've taken 10% off the max payload.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Tautology, much?

    You are applying your broken EV car logic to trucks now, and assuming that the only market is one of max weight and or max length. It's not.
    Some loads cube out, yes, then there's part loads. But not many - and it's certainly not something any haulier will be happy to rely on.

    Edit - You also need to be careful before claiming a 2tonne weight increase (for the 500 mile model) not to use 2017/18 batt weights, but 2019/20 batt weights, at it is assumed Tesla have something up their sleevies. M.
    Do you mind terribly if I fail to hold my breath?
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 11th Mar 18, 8:49 PM
    • 1,820 Posts
    • 2,384 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Took charge of my new 40kWh Nissan Leaf 2.ZERO on Friday.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    That's what I like to hear! The more people upgrade the more second hand cars will enter the market. Personally I'd fancy a 60kWh Ioniq but they're neither available or in my price range!

    With both Kia and Hyundai, production figures suggest they're still being constrained by lack of batteries as the waiting lists certainly point to demand being there.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Mar 18, 7:36 AM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Some loads cube out, yes, then there's part loads. But not many - and it's certainly not something any haulier will be happy to rely on.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Could you provide some numbers to support your claim that it's not many. I've previously supplied links to info suggesting that in the States:-
    The data regarding truck weight is collected by the States and consolidated by the FHWA using a technology called weigh in motion. The last time I looked, about 3 years ago, less than 10% of the trucks (class 8-13) were running near, at or above 80K pounds.
    Also, while you are responding, could you now please supply the evidence on which you claimed the two trucks at the launch were stage-locked mock ups, and the two mules now making deliveries are different vehicles, quickly knocked up after (not before, for some reason) the launch?

    Just trying to complete all of your posts and claims with actual proof/evidence. And to be fair, I have asked you a number of times.

    Thanks.


    Do you mind terribly if I fail to hold my breath?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Probably not a wise decision when you have your head buried in the sand.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 12-03-2018 at 7:41 AM. Reason: Spelling
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 12th Mar 18, 9:37 AM
    • 2,864 Posts
    • 1,156 Thanks
    NigeWick
    The more people upgrade the more second hand cars will enter the market.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Younger daughter and her husband are taking on the 30kWh Leaf I've got.

    I went for the Nissan because I can manage with the realistic, for me, 150-160 mile warm weather range, and having experience of the old Leaf I know it will be well put together. Icing on the cake is that it helps keep British people in work.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Originally Posted by AdrianC View Post
    Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.
    Originally Posted by Martyn1981 View Post
    Nope. You've taken 10% off the max payload.
    Tautology, much?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I let this bit slide, as it's just your usual silliness, but having thought about it, it's actually incredibly important, and possibly goes a long way to dealing with your general misunderstandings and excessive EV negativity.

    Your statement is that any extra weight reduces the payload.

    My response is that that is not true, as it only reduces the payload, if the weight of the payload exceeds the max.

    So, if using your additional 2t batt weight and truck/trailer weight estimates, then the max load may have been reduced from 28t to 26t.

    But, obviously all loads of 26t or less are not impacted, as per my statement - "You've taken 10% off the max payload."

    Your claim - "Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload." falsely claims that all payloads are impacted.

    This basic lack of understanding is similar to the silly claims we have seen on here by folk who think that

    'until an EV can drive 400 miles without recharging, it's not suitable/viable'

    however, the truth is that 'until an EV can drive 400 miles without recharging, it's not suitable/viable ...... for folk who want/need to drive 400 miles without recharging'

    There is a significant, in fact, essential importance to understanding the difference here.


    So back to trucking. If your claims are true that the Tesla will weigh 2t more than other similar tractors, then your payload claim only applies to fleets that operate at, or within 2t of the max payload. All other fleet managers won't mind at all. Hence why I asked you to support your latest claim

    Some loads cube out, yes, then there's part loads. But not many - and it's certainly not something any haulier will be happy to rely on.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    as it's quite important/significant. Thanks.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Mar 18, 12:42 PM
    • 17,368 Posts
    • 15,703 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I let this bit slide, as it's just your usual silliness, but having thought about it, it's actually incredibly important, and possibly goes a long way to dealing with your general misunderstandings and excessive EV negativity.

    Your statement is that any extra weight reduces the payload.

    My response is that that is not true, as it only reduces the payload, if the weight of the payload exceeds the max.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    You're using "payload" to describe the weight of the actual load.

    I'm using it to describe the potential maximum weight that can be legally carried - which is the usual definition used across the entire haulage and motor industries.

    If you hire a van and fill it with helium balloons, it does not have a negative payload. The payload does not change.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Mar 18, 1:02 PM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    You're using "payload" to describe the weight of the actual load.

    I'm using it to describe the potential maximum weight that can be legally carried - which is the usual definition used across the entire haulage and motor industries.

    If you hire a van and fill it with helium balloons, it does not have a negative payload. The payload does not change.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I take it you are trying to slither your way out of yet another 'broad statement' of negativity? Fair enough then, if we both agree that it's not necessarily a negative for many fleet managers.

    However, your follow up statement:-

    Some loads cube out, yes, then there's part loads. But not many - and it's certainly not something any haulier will be happy to rely on.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    appears to support my interpretation that you are implying that most loads (the inverse of 'not many') will be impacted. So once again you appear to be trying to dig your way out of a hole, using contradictory claims.


    Anyways, back to you supplying proof of the grand statements that you've made, and for which I've asked many times now:-

    1. Proof that the Tesla semi's at the launch event where not mules, just stage-locked vehicles barely capable of moving themselves.

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.

    3. Proof that most UK loads are near to max weight, or shall we say, within 2t of max.

    I'm assuming this information is at your finger tips, after all, Shirley you wouldn't make those 'statements of fact' falsely?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Mar 18, 4:46 PM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    US EV's getting cleaner, now equal to 80mpg, up from 73mpg as the grid gets a little cleaner.

    Electric Cars Are Getting Greener, Says UCS Report

    And of course, an EV can continue to get greener as it ages (unlike an ICE vehicle):

    The good news revealed by these latest UCS findings is that electric cars can continue to reduce their carbon footprint in the future as the grid gets greener. No one can make the same claim for existing cars with internal combustion engines. And newer EVs are even more efficient. UCS highlights the Hyundai Ioniq BEV, Prius Prime, and Tesla Model 3 as three cars now on the market that have significantly lower carbon footprints than similar models from just a few years ago.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Mar 18, 7:55 AM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Remember the giant mine truck that was converted to batts. It runs loaded, down from the site charging up the batts, then runs empty, back up. It actually 'makes' energy which has to be fed to the grid, cool!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Speaking of which, article today on another mine experimenting with these giant diesel electric trucks ..... more leccy, less diesel.

    Swedish Copper Mine Converting Monster Trucks To Run On Electricity

    Perhaps in the longer term, they'll be able to ditch the diesel engines and put enough batts on board to run the trucks for periods between overhead cables, then receive a charge for part of the journey.

    Oh, and being Northern Sweden, that might make these trucks 'water-powered'.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Mar 18, 9:31 AM
    • 9,392 Posts
    • 10,373 Thanks
    AnotherJoe

    2. Proof that the trucks now being load tested by Tesla are new mules, as you stated, knocked together after the launch.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    There are now videos of one of the "knocked together" mules accelerating at car speeds, seems they did a good job building that given it was such a rush job.

    But once that objection is shown to be false, AdrianC will just raise another. And then another.
    Even if he got a delivery to his front door via one he'd claim its a scam and had been waiting round the corner charging for a week and not really come from 250 miles away.

    I am somewhat surprised that Walmart, UPS, Pepsi, Anheuser-Busch and many others haven't hired him as a consultant, since he would be quickly able to show them how the wool has been pulled over their eyes and that of their engineers looking over these mules and really there's a Bosch diesel unit under the hood, or perhaps a Model X and the rest is made of Papier Mache to keep the weight down.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 13-03-2018 at 9:37 AM.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 13th Mar 18, 12:24 PM
    • 7,333 Posts
    • 2,967 Thanks
    almillar
    I have asked all over the internet and nobody can tell me what the unladen weight of the trucks are
    Considering they haven't launched yet, you'll have to wait!

    And can we please put this infrastructure/supply problem to bed? I can sit at my desk here as an uneducated pleb, and I can think of the answer - batteries, on site. You know, like the ones they put into the trucks/cars? Charge those up constantly (peak load them) and blast the electric into vehicles when needed. Next problem...
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 13th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    • 7,223 Posts
    • 6,491 Thanks
    Herzlos
    You're using "payload" to describe the weight of the actual load.

    I'm using it to describe the potential maximum weight that can be legally carried - which is the usual definition used across the entire haulage and motor industries.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I think Adrian is right here, though not in a way that is actually useful. Marketing material usually refers to a weight of payload, so in some cases the payload is the maximum weight of stuff you can put it, rather than the actual amount of the stuff that's in.
    The dictionary definition of payload is the stuff that's in. There doesn't seem to be any common distinction between actual payload and maximum payload.

    What the industry actually uses, I don't know, as I'm not a trucker and have never used the term as is. I've always used "max load" or MAM when dealing with vans and trailers.

    Staying on point; Adding 2000kg* to the empty weight will take 2000kg of potential load out of the GTW. For people running within 2000kg of a full load, that's a big deal and they'll need to stick with diesel. For the people that don't get within 2000kg of a full load, it's irrelevant.

    You may even find that with the savings in running costs, it's potentially worth just adding an additional 10% of trucks to the fleet for cases where you're within that 2000kg band and making regular drops.

    *I think there was mention it'd be closer to 500kg (1000lb) increase over the diesel equivalent. Whilst you're adding a lot of batteries, you can also remove some pretty heavy components (most of the 'engine', transmission, exhausts, filters, adblue system, fuel system, some of the structural material)
    Last edited by Herzlos; 13-03-2018 at 12:56 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I think Adrian is right here, though not in a way that is actually useful.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    Yes, I agree. The trick here is to say something that implies one thing:

    Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    maintain the issue when challenged:

    Some loads cube out, yes, then there's part loads. But not many - and it's certainly not something any haulier will be happy to rely on.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    but when cornered, fall back on a meaning different to that implied, such as 'payload' v's 'paying load'.

    But of real importance here, and as reflected in your post, is the issue of relevancy. If Adrian is right with his bold claim that most loads (inverse of 'not many') are at max weight is true, then we have a serious problem.

    If however a significant number of loads, and I suspect a majority, are not at max, then it has very little importance. I think clarification of this is important to the discussion, as it will reflect the take up (or not) of these vehicles. Therefore Adrian really does need to provide a link/reference to the data on which he made his claim, or perhaps admit, he made it up. We shall see.

    I'm particularly interested in the grocery business, perhaps because I grew up in the industry/distribution, but more because the supermarkets have enormous fleets, are heavily into 'greenwashing'*, and I suspect are not close to max weight, so a rapid switch to EV's would be possible. Perhaps?

    * I'm not against greenwashing at all, I'm happy for anyone to pretend to be green, by being green, and then laughing at me behind my back for being tricked ..... as I'm not entirely sure who has been tricked!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Mar 18, 1:19 PM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    There are now videos of one of the "knocked together" mules accelerating at car speeds, seems they did a good job building that given it was such a rush job.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Hiya. What really intrigued me, and I have mentioned this before, is the fact that some folk who climbed under the trailer, behind the tractor, filming all the kit, spotted that the single gear reduction units, one for each rear axle, had different gear ratios.

    That seems clever to me, giving a higher torque for pull off from one axle, and another axle better for highway cruising. But, and this is a big BUT, why would you bother to do this for a stage-locked mock-up, it would only seem to make sense if it's a test mule based on the planned final layout (that may of course change during development).

    I think Tesla will shake up this market, and faster than expected. Some recent reports/articles have suggested that Tesla's greatest unveiling is the Jaguar I-Pace. The argument being that Tesla has 'forced' other car companies to take EV's seriously, far sooner than they planned too. The Genie is out of the bottle.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Mar 18, 10:29 AM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    There are now videos of one of the "knocked together" mules accelerating at car speeds, seems they did a good job building that given it was such a rush job.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Also some pics of the semi charging up at a supercharger station. Apparently they plug it into two chargers at the same time, but not ones adjacent to each other, as that can reduce the kW supply rate (it does this for cars too, but the destination chargers, about 70kW, are independent of each other). Cool.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 15th Mar 18, 11:21 AM
    • 4,139 Posts
    • 5,357 Thanks
    zeupater
    Injecting a little more reality into the thread ...

    Apparently, VW have thrown down the gauntlet on EV & confirmed that they will be building them in 16 plants by 2022, launching new electric models at a rate of one-per-month from 2019 onwards ... and to support this have already signed 18billion ($25bn) of battery supply contracts ...

    Plenty of news available on this - here's a summary from cnet
    The plan, previously dubbed "Roadmap E," is to produce up to 3 million electrified vehicles per year by 2025, with no fewer than 80 electrified models spread throughout its dozen-strong brand lineup, a portfolio that includes VW, Audi, Porsche and Bugatti, among others.
    cnet.com : VW-confirms-16-ev-plants-by-2022

    Three million EVs by 2025 would be a considerable achievement for one manufacturing group - in context, they built around 10.7million vehicles in 2017!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 15th Mar 18, 12:11 PM
    • 6,128 Posts
    • 29,507 Thanks
    bugslet

    If they really can deliver the 300 mile range model for that price and the specs promised (Elon has recently suggested they are going to beat the specs), then it's a diesel killer, especially in Europe.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I've no real likes or dislikes about electric, it's whatever it is, but at the moment I'd want an 800 mile range. I'm guessing that at some point - possibly faster than we imagine - a battery will be made will manage that kind of mileage.

    A typical European diesel artic tractor unit is around 9.5t unladen weight, and carries 3-400 litres of fuel.
    http://tools.mercedes-benz.co.uk/current/trucks/specification-sheets/actros/actros-6x4-tractor-3346-3355.pdf

    A typical modern curtainside trailer is around 6.5t minimum.
    https://www.cargobull.com/files/fi/filemanager_files/Neufahrzeuge/Curtainsider/SCS-Broschuere-Transport-PC-GB.pdf

    So unladen weight for the whole shebang is north of 16t, leaving the payload somewhere north of 20t.

    Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    If we are pulling a standard curtainside trailer, it's around 24 ton that we can carry.

    Having said that, we rarely load much above 8 ton, I certainly can't remember the last time we loaded anywhere near weight capacity.

    The people who would probably be most affected by loss of weight are the bulk carriers, grain, liquids, cement, that kind of thing.

    Iveco and Volvo - possibly others - are investing heavily in gas powered trucks that currently have a greater range than battery power.


    https://www.iveco.com/uk/products/pages/new-stralis-np-gas-truck.aspx

    http://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/trucks/volvo-fh-series/volvo-fh-lng.html


    I think as a small haulier, I'd want a lot more clarity about which direction the market will go in, gas or electricity, before wanting to commit to one or the other.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 18th Mar 18, 3:55 PM
    • 6,866 Posts
    • 11,113 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Ban new petrol and diesel cars in 2030, not 2040, says thinktank

    Ministers have been urged to bring forward their 2040 ban on new diesel and petrol car sales by a decade, a move which an environmental thinktank said would almost halve oil imports and largely close the gap in the UKs climate targets.

    The Green Alliance said a more ambitious deadline of 2030 is also needed to avoid the UK squandering its leadership on electric cars.

    While the number of electric cars being sold in the UK has rocketed in the past four years, Germany overtook the UK last year in its rise in the registrations of new plug-in hybrids and 100% battery-powered cars. A 2030 ban on combustion engine models would boost sales of electrified cars in the UK and even raise the prospect of the country becoming an net vehicle exporter, the Green Alliance said.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • RichardD1970
    • By RichardD1970 18th Mar 18, 7:09 PM
    • 2,913 Posts
    • 4,303 Thanks
    RichardD1970
    Well, they would, wouldn't they?

    Personally, as someone who would buy an EV tomorrow if I was in the market for a new car in that price range, I still think 2040 is wildly optomistic.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 18th Mar 18, 8:05 PM
    • 4,139 Posts
    • 5,357 Thanks
    zeupater
    Well, they would, wouldn't they?

    Personally, as someone who would buy an EV tomorrow if I was in the market for a new car in that price range, I still think 2040 is wildly optomistic.
    Originally posted by RichardD1970
    Hi

    I'd tend to agree ... for VW to shift 16plants & around 25% of production by 2025 (7 years) means that they'd need to move the majority of the remaining 75% within a further 5, which is probably pushing it even for a high volume manufacturer with an already ambitious model electrification plan!

    To be able to meet an earlier date (effectively halving the timespan!) would have a huge impact on battery supply and the ramping up of production which would need to impact on the manufacturing & marketing decision of building for range or volume ... if the answer is volume, then the ambition for range will need to be sacrificed ...

    Potentially, if the date is brought forward by that much the likely effect would be to sideline expanding volume production of 'Electric' vehicles to allow for the 'Electrification' of the majority of production ... so instead of moving directly to EVs, there'd be a need to introduce an interim position involving plug-in Hybrid models ...

    Looks like a thought by a 'think-tank' which doesn't spend too much time thinking! .....

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,592Posts Today

9,419Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • It's the start of mini MSE's half term. In order to be the best daddy possible, Im stopping work and going off line? https://t.co/kwjvtd75YU

  • RT @shellsince1982: @MartinSLewis thanx to your email I have just saved myself £222 by taking a SIM only deal for £7.50 a month and keeping?

  • Today's Friday twitter poll: An important question, building on yesterday's important discussions: Which is the best bit of the pizza...

  • Follow Martin