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    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 59
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Mar 18, 9:15 PM
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    zeupater
    Just to say that the truck, which we've been unreliably informed, doesn't really exist, is now about to start making deliveries.

    So expect lots of footage of the prototypes out and about in the wild.

    Tesla’s new electric Semis make their first cargo deliveries

    Tesla is about to make its first delivery with its all-electric Semi

    A Tesla battery truck, delivering Tesla batteries for Tesla battery cars ..... nice little circle that.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    Interesting that they'll have test vehicles on the road so quickly after the concept was first launched.

    270mile one way trip is interesting too ... is this the 300mile range version, or the extended range version running up towards a future press release confirming a return trip on a single charge? ...

    As for reports of cabs without loads being seen on the route between the plants, that makes sense in a testing environment when AI is being settled in & the route is being optimised for performance (gradients etc) to maximise range ... With the ability to run the vehicles in convoy to save energy, I'd expect the test vehicles to be operated together soon after the deliveries begin, in which case if they are 500 mile capable, a 540mile convoy return trip could be reported sooner than many would care to anticipate!!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Mar 18, 7:52 AM
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    AdrianC
    Interesting that they'll have test vehicles on the road so quickly after the concept was first launched.
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Not a great surprise at all.

    Trucks are big Meccano. These mules will be off-the-shelf chassis, with a fairly rough and ready grp cab, with the "mechanicals" in a fairly early state of development, and the electronics pretty much ripped from the cars.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Mar 18, 8:02 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Not a great surprise at all.

    Trucks are big Meccano. These mules will be off-the-shelf chassis, with a fairly rough and ready grp cab, with the "mechanicals" in a fairly early state of development, and the electronics pretty much ripped from the cars.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I'm confused, I thought you said there were no Tesla Semi's, just some mock-ups only capable of crossing a stage. Now they are easy ...... and common perhaps?

    Next they'll be towing car transporters, loaded with Model 3's that aren't being delivered!



    He's previously done a similar video on the Tesla semi truck
    Wake me if and when it ever exists.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Wakey, wakey.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 09-03-2018 at 8:21 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Mar 18, 8:05 AM
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    Martyn1981
    With the ability to run the vehicles in convoy to save energy, I'd expect the test vehicles to be operated together soon after the deliveries begin, in which case if they are 500 mile capable, a 540mile convoy return trip could be reported sooner than many would care to anticipate!!

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Apparently the route is downhill (on average), so loaded with batts on the 'easier' bit, then running empty on the return leg, should be easy for the 500 mile version ...... I think. That'll be fun.

    Remember the giant mine truck that was converted to batts. It runs loaded, down from the site charging up the batts, then runs empty, back up. It actually 'makes' energy which has to be fed to the grid, cool!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 9th Mar 18, 8:40 AM
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    AdrianC
    I'm confused, I thought you said there were no Tesla Semi's, just some mock-ups only capable of crossing a stage.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    That was in November, four months ago. Now there are some mules on the road. Not hard.

    In December, I said there weren't any technology prototypes.
    There still isn't, since there hasn't been even one technology prototype built yet.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    And there are now. Not hard.

    In January, I said exactly the same as I'm saying now.
    As for the semi "test drives", I've not found a video of anything beyond https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1afVsM-rnk and the like. Perhaps you could oblige with something more convincing? It's almost trivial to swap the drivetrain from an off-the-shelf diesel truck chassis with a decent-size motor and some batteries, which leaves us with a styling mock-up on top of an off-the-shelf cab. <shrug>
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    This kind of mule is common in the motor industry, of all flavours, and long has been. Usually, they're fairly well disguised - but that's not Tesla's schtick.
    http://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/collection/freelander/mule-prototype-cb40-brake-test-hack - 1989 mule for a vehicle that first hit production in 1997
    http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2017/12/here-s-the-first-photographic-evidence-a-new-land-rover-defender-is-in-the-works.html

    Do we actually have anything like a reasonably final unladen weight yet? No, not just a wet finger in the air. That is going to be crucial to the viability, as I've also been saying all along, and it's something that isn't going to come until they're vaguely production-ready.

    A month ago, St Elon was talking about 100k trucks a year, and being very vague about production dates - a hand-wavey 2019, no more than that.
    https://electrek.co/2018/02/08/tesla-semi-electric-semi-truck-production/

    100k/year is about half the total annual US market for articulated tractor units, more than any one manufacturer has currently...
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/245369/class-8-truck-sales-by-manfuacturer/

    And all this while he's still having major production issues with the Model 3? Where are we at with that, anyway? Ooops, further delays even last month.
    https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/08/waiting-35000-tesla-model-3-patient-gonna/
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Mar 18, 2:31 PM
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    Martyn1981
    That was in November, four months ago. Now there are some mules on the road. Not hard.

    In December, I said there weren't any technology prototypes.

    And there are now. Not hard.

    In January, I said exactly the same as I'm saying now.


    This kind of mule is common in the motor industry, of all flavours, and long has been. Usually, they're fairly well disguised - but that's not Tesla's schtick.
    http://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/collection/freelander/mule-prototype-cb40-brake-test-hack - 1989 mule for a vehicle that first hit production in 1997
    http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2017/12/here-s-the-first-photographic-evidence-a-new-land-rover-defender-is-in-the-works.html

    Do we actually have anything like a reasonably final unladen weight yet? No, not just a wet finger in the air. That is going to be crucial to the viability, as I've also been saying all along, and it's something that isn't going to come until they're vaguely production-ready.

    A month ago, St Elon was talking about 100k trucks a year, and being very vague about production dates - a hand-wavey 2019, no more than that.
    https://electrek.co/2018/02/08/tesla-semi-electric-semi-truck-production/

    100k/year is about half the total annual US market for articulated tractor units, more than any one manufacturer has currently...
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/245369/class-8-truck-sales-by-manfuacturer/

    And all this while he's still having major production issues with the Model 3? Where are we at with that, anyway? Ooops, further delays even last month.
    https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/08/waiting-35000-tesla-model-3-patient-gonna/
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Oh ...... so the trucks at the launch weren't real, but these are!

    So none of these are the same trucks we saw at the launch? The launch trucks were definitely not prototypes capable of driving around, and perhaps giving test rides? Do you have any proof?

    Perhaps, if you didn't keep posting nonsense, you then wouldn't have to double down a few months later, with more nonsense and excuses ...... unless you can support your claims (old and new)?

    More vids:

    Tesla Semi!!!8217;s Taking Off

    Following the Tesla Semi!!!8217;s
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 09-03-2018 at 2:37 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 9th Mar 18, 2:56 PM
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    zeupater
    Apparently the route is downhill (on average), so loaded with batts on the 'easier' bit, then running empty on the return leg, should be easy for the 500 mile version ...... I think. That'll be fun.

    Remember the giant mine truck that was converted to batts. It runs loaded, down from the site charging up the batts, then runs empty, back up. It actually 'makes' energy which has to be fed to the grid, cool!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    It may be downhill on average, but there's still plenty of climbing involved .... the last time myself & MrsZ were in that area we drove from Reno to Sacramento (probably on the same interstate) winding our way through passes & valleys in some pretty mountainous country having ~7000'-10000' peaks with plenty of snow on the tops ... quite spectacular scenery really! ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Mar 18, 7:32 AM
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    Martyn1981
    That was in November, four months ago. Now there are some mules on the road. Not hard.

    In December, I said there weren't any technology prototypes.

    And there are now. Not hard.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    But this guy who was at the launch, is saying they are the very same trucks, so I'll ask again, are you still claiming the trucks at the launch were mock ups barely able to cross the stage, whilst the 'delivery' trucks are different ones, quickly built after (not before) the launch?

    First 3 minutes

    For once, I would appreciate some actual facts and supporting information from you, not more anti-EV nonsense. Thanks.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 10th Mar 18, 4:09 PM
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    Tarambor
    I have asked all over the internet and nobody can tell me what the unladen weight of the trucks are. This is one of the biggest important factors to a haulier as it ultimately dictates the maximum weight of load they can carry and therefore money they can earn. I can go to the website of the truck manufacturer of the truck I drive, DAF, and I can find out the unladen weight of every single variant of tractor unit and chassis cab they do down to the kilogramme yet with the Tesla Semi there's not even any information about what it is to the nearest tonne. Every kilogramme an empty lorry weighs is a kilogramme of load it can't carry and can't charge for carrying and Tesla are being very quiet about it.

    I did some rough back of fag packet maths from the specs that have been released and on the 500 mile version of the Tesla truck the weight of the batteries alone would be 85% of that of my entire tractor unit.

    The other downside for the Tesla Semi Truck is that to do a 30 minute recharge that Tesla state you're going to need a 1.2MWh charge point for the 300 mile range and a 2MWh charge point for the 500 mile range variant. To put it into context when you go to the motorway services and see the row of half a dozen Tesla charge points that entire row doesn't even come close to using half that rate. 1.2-2.0MWh charge points requires some serious electrical infrastructure being put in place where the charge points are.
    Last edited by Tarambor; 10-03-2018 at 4:12 PM.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 10th Mar 18, 7:16 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    I have asked all over the internet and nobody can tell me what the unladen weight of the trucks are.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    I read somewhere that they are about two tons heavier than the equivalent diesel tractor unit.
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 10th Mar 18, 7:49 PM
    • 242 Posts
    • 229 Thanks
    gzoom
    12 months since we changed the Leaf for the Tesla. 15K miles covered, one trip from Leicester to Edinburgh amounts usual family outings, despite the snow/cold winter haven't come close to problems with range/charge even in our cheapest/lowest range Tesla. Have not used any public charging points apart from Tesla Superchargers.

    Just treated the car to a detail/paint protection, looking forwards to another 12 months of happy family motoring .


    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 11th Mar 18, 2:42 AM
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    Tarambor
    I read somewhere that they are about two tons heavier than the equivalent diesel tractor unit.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    That must be for the low mileage variant. There's no way on earth you're having 500 miles of motors, chassis, cab and everything else weighing just 3 tonnes. Hell even the wheels and tyres alone weigh between 600kg and 800kg depending on axle configuration.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Mar 18, 8:30 AM
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    Martyn1981
    I did some rough back of fag packet maths from the specs that have been released and on the 500 mile version of the Tesla truck the weight of the batteries alone would be 85% of that of my entire tractor unit.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Hiya, if you recall, I went through your 'fag packet' maths last year, and tore em to pieces:-

    Originally Posted by Tarambor View Post
    By my calculations based on a Tesla Model S, to move the UK maximum lorry weight limit of 44 tonnes 300 miles (100-120 miles less than I do in a single shift) requires 10 tonnes of batteries.
    I'm afraid your calculations are wrong.

    The 300 mile Tesla truck has a 600kWh battery. You may be aware that Tesla stated that their trucks consume less than 2kWh/mile at max weight (80,000lb).

    Speculation is rife that the battery technology will be an upgrade, this coincides with rumours as to 'how in hell' are they squeezing 200kWh into the new Roadster2.

    But let's stick with current weight, so shall we look to AdrianC, after all he is clearly not a Tesla supporter, and he stated that:

    Originally Posted by AdrianC View Post
    Nobody else is really doing that, not least because of the weight (the Model S battery is about 600kg -
    Now admittedly, he didn't specify a model, so let's go with the smallest at 75kWh, so 600kWh would therefore weigh -

    (600kg/75) x 600 = 4,800kg, so less than half the weight you claim.

    Or we can look at the Renault Zoe, whose 41kWh (useable) battery weighs 305kg up from 290kg for the older 23kWh battery.

    So (305/41) x 600 = 4,463kg, so less than half the weight you claim.

    In my earlier example I suggested a weight saving of 5,000lbs to 8,000lbs, so around 2.27 to 3.63 tonnes, to help balance out the additional battery weight.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Later on I mentioned the Nicola One Hydrogen truck. They are reporting that its weight is 2,000lb lighter than a diesel truck, despite having 320kWh of batts on board.

    So allowing for the additional 280kWh of the 300 mile range Tesla, that would add 2,800lb's of battery weight, then deduct the fuel cell kit and hydrogen tanks. Probably breaks even with the diesel.


    [Edit - this article suggests the 300 mile truck weighs approx 1,000lb more than a day cab diesel, and the 500 mile truck weighs approx 1,000lb more than a sleeper cab diesel.

    Does Tesla Semi Break the Laws of Physics?

    I nearly posted this when it came out, but thought the issue had gone quiet. M.]


    The other downside for the Tesla Semi Truck is that to do a 30 minute recharge that Tesla state you're going to need a 1.2MWh charge point for the 300 mile range and a 2MWh charge point for the 500 mile range variant. To put it into context when you go to the motorway services and see the row of half a dozen Tesla charge points that entire row doesn't even come close to using half that rate. 1.2-2.0MWh charge points requires some serious electrical infrastructure being put in place where the charge points are.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    Actually as discussed on here in the past, and almost every forum, the charger would need to be 1.6MWh, to provide 0.8MWh in 30 mins.

    Yes, a mega-charger build out will be needed, but not sure why you think that's a problem, especially given that Tesla have a proven record already, having rolled out a Super-charger network worldwide.

    Regarding electrical infrastructure, again, not sure why this is a problem, please explain? But are you aware that Tesla already deploy Powerpacks at some charge sites to smooth out the electrical demand/supply?


    I think any concerns over weight or size, or range of these vehicles is simply pointless. Those fleets that can use them for their current business will - after all, Tesla has suggested a 2yr payback on the cost difference, whilst DHL has suggested an 18month payback. In Europe, with diesel at twice the price, expect a payback far quicker on the £110k 300 mile tractor, or the £140k 500 mile tractor.

    Those fleets that can't use them, yet, won't, till a suitable EV tractor is available.

    Edit - I should have said that I got the UK prices from watching a You-tube vid a few days back:-

    Tesla Semi Explained - UK Orders Open

    This guy seemed impressed, and happy.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 11-03-2018 at 8:50 AM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Mar 18, 8:45 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Another article in CleanTechnica's myth busting serious on EV's:-

    Electric Car Myth Buster !!!8212; Efficiency


    and another on the green'ness of the leccy source:-

    Electrifying Transport Is Green Here, Greener There, & Green As Kermit The Frog In Norway Or With A Solar Roof
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 11th Mar 18, 9:12 AM
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    NigeWick
    Took charge of my new 40kWh Nissan Leaf 2.ZERO on Friday. It may only be a bit of an upgrade to the old version but it IS far better to drive.

    I am with Ecotricity at present to take advantage of the 52 free charges that were offered last year when I joined them. They have stopped that and just charge customers 15p per kWh from their rapid chargers rather than 30p per kWh for non customers. I am moving over to Ovo as they have a deal of two years free subscription to the Polar charging system. The reason for this is that I can now drive to both my daughters with stopping en route and there are Polar rapid chargers near both their locations at 9p per kWh (for subscribers). And, my one annual 270 mile journey has a Polar rapid about half way. This means I will be able to do the 540 mile round trip for less than £20 in fuel costs as I charge using solar at home.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Mar 18, 9:56 AM
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    Gloomendoom
    That must be for the low mileage variant. There's no way on earth you're having 500 miles of motors, chassis, cab and everything else weighing just 3 tonnes. Hell even the wheels and tyres alone weigh between 600kg and 800kg depending on axle configuration.
    Originally posted by Tarambor
    An extra two tons would make it around 9 or 10 tons all up.

    Reasonable?
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Mar 18, 10:10 AM
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    AdrianC
    A typical European diesel artic tractor unit is around 9.5t unladen weight, and carries 3-400 litres of fuel.
    http://tools.mercedes-benz.co.uk/current/trucks/specification-sheets/actros/actros-6x4-tractor-3346-3355.pdf

    A typical modern curtainside trailer is around 6.5t minimum.
    https://www.cargobull.com/files/fi/filemanager_files/Neufahrzeuge/Curtainsider/SCS-Broschuere-Transport-PC-GB.pdf

    So unladen weight for the whole shebang is north of 16t, leaving the payload somewhere north of 20t.

    Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Mar 18, 10:28 AM
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    Gloomendoom
    A brief Google suggests that US tractor units seem to weigh in at between 17,000 and 22,000 lbs fuelled depending on spec.(7.7 - 10 metric tons)
    “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Mar 18, 11:05 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Add 2t to the unladen weight, and you've just taken damn near 10% off the payload.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Nope. You've taken 10% off the max payload.

    You are applying your broken EV car logic to trucks now, and assuming that the only market is one of max weight and or max length. It's not.

    Edit - You also need to be careful before claiming a 2tonne weight increase (for the 500 mile model) not to use 2017/18 batt weights, but 2019/20 batt weights, at it is assumed Tesla have something up their sleevies. M.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 11-03-2018 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Mar 18, 11:07 AM
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    Martyn1981
    A brief Google suggests that US tractor units seem to weigh in at between 17,000 and 22,000 lbs fuelled depending on spec.(7.7 - 10 metric tons)
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    That looks very similar to the CleanTechnica calcs too, so seems a reasonable starting point.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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