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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 48
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 14th Feb 18, 9:25 AM
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    AnotherJoe
    A question for EV'ers.

    I've been watching a you tube channel called Tesla Time News, it's a father and son combo, and between them/family they have a Leaf, Tesla X and a Model 3.

    They raised an interesting point that range of around 200-250 miles is fine, and that they think companies aiming for 400 miles, 500 miles etc are missing the point, as 200 miles and cheaper (smaller battery) is a better option for most, especially with fast chargers. I get the impression that once you adapt to an EV, you now longer 'need' to compete with petrol/diesel tank ranges.

    Sounds like a good point, but what do I know!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    For most people I agree. Certainly for me, when I go to a 250 mile or so range EV in a couple,of years, I'll never have to use a public charge point, all charges will be either at home or at friends over night.

    Of course there's always the road warrior type who insist they need to do 400 miles each way journeys every day.

    However I think more crucially people don't buy what they need they buy what they think they need so there will be a group who think they need 400 miles just because that's what their ICE does, even if actually they never drive more than 100 miles a day. Hencea market for over long ranges just like people buy large 4x4's for driving in town.

    Over time the latter group will see their friends and colleagues moving to EV and spending about 20% of what they do running a car and not having range issues and their attitudes will likely change. Plus in less than 10 or so years time EVs will be substantially cheaper than ICE to buy due to falling resale values of ICE impacting PCP costs.

    The other big benefit of 250 mile plus range is less pressure on EV charge points, eg many would never need to use them.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 14th Feb 18, 9:34 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
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    NigeWick
    Its not the heater.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    It is when it's turned on, same as aircon will reduce range in the summer.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 14th Feb 18, 9:37 AM
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    NigeWick
    Solar PV banding under the FiT scheme runs all the way up to 5MWp ... all (non stand-alone) newly installed systems <10kWp are eligible to attract the same FiT rate, depending on energy efficiency ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I sit corrected as I did not explain myself correctly. The FiT for what I'll call individual private people who want the highest FiT per kWh is (or was when I got mine three years ago) limited to 4kW.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 14th Feb 18, 9:59 AM
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    NigeWick
    They raised an interesting point that range of around 200-250 miles is fine, and that they think companies aiming for 400 miles, 500 miles etc are missing the point,
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Indeed. I am happy with the 150ish real world miles of the 2018 Nissan Leaf. On our annual 280 mile trip, I have to stop at least once for a drink, sustenance and comfort break. At present, the problem is there are no chargers at that magic 150 miles so I'll have one longer break and one splash & dash later n the journey. That said, with Polar and others adding more rapid chargers around the country, it shouldn't be too long before most longer journies are covered even to what are more remote spots now.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Feb 18, 10:59 AM
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    Martyn1981
    I sit corrected as I did not explain myself correctly. The FiT for what I'll call individual private people who want the highest FiT per kWh is (or was when I got mine three years ago) limited to 4kW.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Hiya Nige, just to clear this up, when the government changed (attacked) the FiT rates in early 2016 they combined the 0-4kWp and 4-10kWp bands, so now it starts off with a 0-10kWp all at the same rate, so ideal for a 5kWp system running through a 3.68kW capped inverter for DNO reasons.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 14th Feb 18, 1:11 PM
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    almillar
    I think that is my quote. I have got myself mixed up on the BMW webpage. Could it have been a model with this fabled range extender which showed as 37 grand?
    Maybe, but adding the REX engine costs about 3,000 if my memory is correct from a few months ago - I was looking at the finance side anyway and I think it was a tenner a month or something. Point being, I wouldn't say FROM 30,000 is 'a heck of a lot cheaper' than FROM 37,000. A second hand i3 at 20,000, though, is.

    If they're installing heaters, then I guess the heating loses less range than having the battery cold
    Yes. Electric motors are a mature technology, they're not going to get much more efficient. Li-ion is also pretty well established. The chemistry is what it is. Efficiency is going to come from keeping the battery at its operating temperature which is, handily, roughly, the temperature that humans also like. So what a battery will want is often the same air that you want, so sharing cabin air is a good way of cooling OR heating the battery. The battery also CHARGES more slowly if not at a 'comfortable' temperature. Being able to pre-heat the car (or pre-cool) while plugged really helps efficiency. Driving a car hard for, say, 1/2 a mile before charging, on a cold day, could bring the temp of the battery up, and you will quickly get back that energy you 'wasted' with a faster charging rate. Knowing your battery's temperature is very useful for drivers with an interest.

    The range question - I've gone from 22kWh to 30kWh - 60 miles to 80 miles winter range. More would be great, but I'm simply charging less often and, yes, watching the range less. It helps for longer journeys, and for example, would mean that driving to Dublin would take 1 charge less, saving 30 mins.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 14th Feb 18, 2:13 PM
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    AnotherJoe
    It is when it's turned on, same as aircon will reduce range in the summer.
    !!!8212;!!!8212;!!!8212;

    No it is not, or not to any meaningful amount. Do you have an EV? If so drive out on a cold day and switch the heating on The range will drop a small amount. On a summers day the range would be about 20% more than you see in the winter with no heating.

    To emphasis, the vast majority of loss is the cold itself affecting the batteries. Nothing at all to do with heaters. This is a well known factor with EVa you might as well argue the world is flat. And yes I know some people are dumb enough to try and argue that but there!!!8217;s no excuse when you actually have an EV and can see it yourself just switch the heater off. On 100 Miles you might see it jump by 5. In the summer you!!!8217;d be seeing 120
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 14-02-2018 at 2:17 PM.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 14th Feb 18, 2:21 PM
    • 1,462 Posts
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    IanMSpencer
    The vast majority of loss is the cold itself affecting the batteries. Nothing at all to do with heaters.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    I'm not convinced. I was looking around the eGolf and one of the issues they have is in the world market they have to deal with extremes of temperature. They fit electric seats because the warm surfaces create the illusion of warmth. There isn't enough spare energy dissipated from the motor to warm the cabin in colder climates, and they can't afford to sacrifice too much power to heating e.g. Canada, so heated seats and steering wheel create the impression of a warm environment, so not so much energy has to be wasted. Remember that cars are not well insulated for warmth, and historically have relied on the heat inefficiency of the engine to provide the option to dump heat into the cabin.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Feb 18, 4:52 PM
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    Martyn1981
    I'm not convinced. I was looking around the eGolf and one of the issues they have is in the world market they have to deal with extremes of temperature. They fit electric seats because the warm surfaces create the illusion of warmth. There isn't enough spare energy dissipated from the motor to warm the cabin in colder climates, and they can't afford to sacrifice too much power to heating e.g. Canada, so heated seats and steering wheel create the impression of a warm environment, so not so much energy has to be wasted. Remember that cars are not well insulated for warmth, and historically have relied on the heat inefficiency of the engine to provide the option to dump heat into the cabin.
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    I'm sure I recall mention (somewhere?) of a 1kW heat pump for EV warmth. I thought that sounded a bit powerful at the time, but I suppose a steel and glass box is not the easiest thing to heat. Plus 1kWh for an hours driving (30-60 miles) doesn't sound too bad, especially if the car (and seats/steering wheel and battery) is heated beforehand whilst plugged in.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 14th Feb 18, 10:41 PM
    • 9,059 Posts
    • 9,972 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I'm not convinced. I was looking around the eGolf and one of the issues they have is in the world market they have to deal with extremes of temperature. They fit electric seats because the warm surfaces create the illusion of warmth. There isn't enough spare energy dissipated from the motor to warm the cabin in colder climates, and they can't afford to sacrifice too much power to heating e.g. Canada, so heated seats and steering wheel create the impression of a warm environment, so not so much energy has to be wasted. Remember that cars are not well insulated for warmth, and historically have relied on the heat inefficiency of the engine to provide the option to dump heat into the cabin.
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    OK I know its The Sun, but this is actually a well written factual article which summarises the problem (and a solution, prewarm the battery whilst still charging)

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/5179794/tesla-just-solved-the-problem-of-your-electric-car-battery-losing-range-in-cold-weather/

    Or you could try this https://forums.tesla.com/en_GB/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

    Or this https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/03/24/the-cold-truth-icy-temps-can-slash-an-electric-cars-range-by-more-than-half/#71eb9956344e
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 14-02-2018 at 10:43 PM.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 14th Feb 18, 11:53 PM
    • 1,784 Posts
    • 2,357 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    I got back from the Alps last week in my 8 year old ICE car which leads me to make the following observations:
    1. We certainly stopped every couple of hundred miles if only to change drivers. Going we did it in one day (Le Havre to Italy via Mt Blanc tunnel) which wouldn't be possible with most (any?) EV cars.
    Coming back we did an overnight stop with what would have been a leisurely second day, except for getting caught on D roads in a snowstorm "Oh, where's the edge of the road, ooh look, another car..".
    2. Whichever EV you get will need more planning!
    3. France is big and under-provided with chargers (but in the past I've also been nervous about finding a petrol station!).
    4. The situation _is_ improving. In the year since I was last there my destination (the Aosta valley) has installed a new network of chargers,mainly 7kW but some 22kWs at the two international tunnels. :
    https://mobility.dufercoenergia.com/Vda
    5. Those of us who drive older cars are going to have to wait a few more years..

    A PHEV would meet my needs (though not my pocket) but the elegant simplicity of electric-only appeals. Maybe I should start to look into international car hire, or persuade my GF to take her white van on holiday. That appeals as we'd have more space for wine and cheese!
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 15th Feb 18, 9:36 AM
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    • 1,148 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Hiya Nige, just to clear this up, when the government changed (attacked) the FiT rates in early 2016 they combined the 0-4kWp and 4-10kWp bands, so now it starts off with a 0-10kWp all at the same rate, so ideal for a 5kWp system running through a 3.68kW capped inverter for DNO reasons.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Thanks for that. I suspected I was out of date.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 15th Feb 18, 9:41 AM
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    NigeWick
    No it is not, or not to any meaningful amount. Do you have an EV?
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Yes, I have an EV. I fully understand that the range drops with cold weather. But, it also drops with the heating/aircon on. And this by up to 10% summer or winter. To me, even a few miles could be "meaningful" depending on the journey I want to do.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • almillar
    • By almillar 15th Feb 18, 1:40 PM
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    • 2,947 Thanks
    almillar
    I'm not convinced
    Please do be. With 16,000 miles and 2 years of electric driving under my belt, I'd generally say that an electric car will go roughly 1.5 times further in summer, than in winter (here in the UK. That's about battery chemistry. Moving a car takes so very much electricity, compared to heating it. And lights, stereo barely register.

    I was looking around the eGolf and one of the issues they have is in the world market they have to deal with extremes of temperature
    They fit electric seats because the warm surfaces create the illusion of warmth
    heated seats and steering wheel
    Ditto for other EVs.
    There isn't enough spare energy dissipated from the motor to warm the cabin in colder climates
    Eh? There isn't really any. Any heat from an electric car has to be produced, hence the energy usage. Heated seats and steering wheel don't give the impression of warmth, they provide warmth! And they do it more directly because you're in contact with them, and for less energy - they're more efficient than warming the air, is the short version, so they're a more popular option on EVs than ICE cars.

    I'm sure I recall mention (somewhere?) of a 1kW heat pump for EV warmth
    I've seen 2kW max usage on my Zoe, whilst standing still, just as a very rough guide.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 15th Feb 18, 2:21 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    Eh? There isn't really any. Any heat from an electric car has to be produced
    Originally posted by almillar
    The motor and power electronics release heat while in use, as does the battery itself. The heat can be recovered to warm the cabin and battery where necessary.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Feb 18, 6:06 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Vehicle-To-Grid (V2G) Research Study Beginning In UK
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 16th Feb 18, 12:39 PM
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    almillar
    The motor and power electronics release heat while in use, as does the battery itself. The heat can be recovered to warm the cabin and battery where necessary.
    Yes, but not when you 'turn the key' in the morning. In general, if you're cold, so is the battery, so it needs the heat as much as you do, and should hold onto it for efficiency. From cold, there's no residual heat anywhere. And by the time you're ripping down the motorway, warming the battery up, the cabin will already be warm.
    • Ranjan
    • By Ranjan 17th Feb 18, 10:03 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ranjan
    Why You Should You Buy A Electric Car?
    Electric cars are the future. Its depends which country you from ? in some countries like china already the demand has exceeded supply. Its very easy to maintain and less pars comparing to the regular cars.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 17th Feb 18, 11:55 AM
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    NigeWick
    in some countries like china already the demand has exceeded supply.
    Originally posted by Ranjan
    I think you'll find that their demand is driven by their government targets and incentives.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 17th Feb 18, 12:20 PM
    • 2,854 Posts
    • 1,810 Thanks
    Car 54
    Electric cars are the future. Its depends which country you from ? in some countries like china already the demand has exceeded supply. Its very easy to maintain and less pars comparing to the regular cars.
    Originally posted by Ranjan
    Welcome to the forum.

    We are asked to give new members a chance, and to be especially nice.

    However, try as I may, I can't help thinking that you should have read the preceeding 48 pages before making such sweeping, contentious and unsupported statements as "Electric cars are the future."

    Posting in English would also help.
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