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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 47
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 13th Feb 18, 9:11 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 1,148 Thanks
    NigeWick
    I'll finally be ready to drink from the fountain of eternal vapourware.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    You, you mean you don't believe Mazda will have a range of BEVs by 2100?!
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Feb 18, 9:26 AM
    • 17,204 Posts
    • 15,514 Thanks
    AdrianC
    You, you mean you don't believe Mazda will have a range of BEVs by 2100?!
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    It's quite a different meaning if you include the full sentence, y'know.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Feb 18, 9:28 AM
    • 9,055 Posts
    • 9,948 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Depends entirely on the battery capacity, of course.

    A non-plugin Prius has a 6.5kWh battery. A plugin Prius has a 25kWh battery. Toyota claim 39 mile range from the plugin. They make no claims on the range from the non-plugin, but assuming it consumes power at the same rate, that'd be about 10 miles range at most.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Those numbers can't be correct, certainly not the 25kWh one, because with that size of battery it ought to be doing double that mileage.

    And a quick google seems to show this, for example, from a write up at launch in November

    Headlines for the new plug-in are a bigger battery and a new two-motor drive system. The doubling of the rear-mounted battery power to 8.8kWh

    EDIT: Sorry didnt realise this mistake had been spotted and corrected earlier.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 13-02-2018 at 10:01 AM.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 13th Feb 18, 9:31 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 1,148 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Not sure if I'm posting this on the correct board but have struggled to find anything more appropriate. I've an ageing deisel powered Ford Focus(ten years 75k miles) which has been brilliant but am thinking to replace. Electric(second hand) seems a possible choice especially as we have two vehicles, so can use the other for any long distances. We are retired with a mix of local journeys for school run etc and longer distances for holidays etc. I'm also keen on the idea of being self sufficient in generating electricity and considering combining the two. Our bungalow has roof of some 50 sq metres with a 22 degree pitch and being 20 degrees east of south facing. I'm thinking of filling the entire roof with panels in order to generate the max I can. On a good day in summer it could return 35kwh so I don't see a problem in supplying houehold needs(7k/day) and keeping the EV topped up. Am seeking quotations for systems of 4k only and the max that can be acheived also. Presumably I'd still get the FIT and export returns on the larger system so it would appear to me to be a sound financial investment. Am I looking through rose tinted glasses?
    Originally posted by Coastalwatch
    You should soon be able to pick up a 30kWh Nissan Leaf for a good price as the 2018 version takes hold. Taking it steady, mine will do 110 - 120 miles of mixed driving in the summer and 90 in the freezing weather we've been having because the heater takes a bit even when stationary.

    As to solar, you'd have to look at HMGov Plc's web site to get the current FiT which won't be a lot. I'm getting a Tesla Powerwall 2 and Zappi charger next month so that I keep maximum generated in house. FiT only goes up to a 4kWh system and you'll also need your local DNO's approval to go above that. I'm having another couple of 300W panels added to my system due to the way they assess VAT on Powerwalls, 20% without additional PV or 5% with. Bit of a no brainer really.

    Bought outright, without my FiT I believe the 4kW system would take 10 years to pay for itself, same for the Powerwall. The Zappi charger should take a bit less as there's a government grant to help pay for it.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 13th Feb 18, 9:33 AM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 1,148 Thanks
    NigeWick
    It's quite a different meaning if you include the full sentence, y'know.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Elon's great 'n' all but he hasn't been deified, yet.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Feb 18, 9:41 AM
    • 9,055 Posts
    • 9,948 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I'm working on the basis that Toyota know.

    Battery capacity
    https://www.toyota.co.uk/car-configurator/prius#carconfig/engine_grades/
    https://www.toyota.co.uk/car-configurator/prius-plug-in#carconfig/engine_grades/
    Click on "Engines", "View All Features", then open up the "Engine" tab and look at the last line for battery capacities.

    Range is about half-way down...
    https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/prius-plugin/index.json
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    That is Amp Hours, not kilowatt hours. They are not the same.

    BMW are the oniy other manufacturer to use this metric , they quoted the original i3 as "60" but that is amp hours and actually it works out as about an 18kWh battery. So if the same ratio applies to Toyota, divide by 3 gets you to 8 kWh which is what the review I quoted in the thread above says.

    EDIT: Sorry didnt realise this mistake had been spotted and corrected earlier.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 13-02-2018 at 10:02 AM.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Feb 18, 9:49 AM
    • 9,055 Posts
    • 9,948 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    You should soon be able to pick up a 30kWh Nissan Leaf for a good price as the 2018 version takes hold. Taking it steady, mine will do 110 - 120 miles of mixed driving in the summer and 90 in the freezing weather we've been having because the heater takes a bit even when stationary.
    Originally posted by NigeWick

    Its not the heater. You'd find pretty much the same range loss if the heater was off. There is a slight additional loss due to the fact you are using the heater but the bottom line is, in cold weather the battery is less efficient and the range drops. For example in my Soul Ev it will show what the range is with and without heater and heater usually is oniy about 5 to 6 miles but the base range will change depending upon the external temperature.

    Most EV drivers report at least a 20% drop from say 15 deg C to 0 dec C. My Soul Ev is currentiy doing about 100 miles, in summer I expect 120. The other factor is in wet weather the range drops a bit due to rolling resistance increasing and that's obviously more common in winter than summer.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 13th Feb 18, 10:42 AM
    • 4,131 Posts
    • 5,350 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... FiT only goes up to a 4kWh system ....
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    Hi

    ?? <Cough> ....

    Solar PV banding under the FiT scheme runs all the way up to 5MWp ... all (non stand-alone) newly installed systems <10kWp are eligible to attract the same FiT rate, depending on energy efficiency ... FiT Tariffs


    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 13th Feb 18, 10:53 AM
    • 4,131 Posts
    • 5,350 Thanks
    zeupater
    Its not the heater. You'd find pretty much the same range loss if the heater was off. There is a slight additional loss due to the fact you are using the heater but the bottom line is, in cold weather the battery is less efficient and the range drops. For example in my Soul Ev it will show what the range is with and without heater and heater usually is oniy about 5 to 6 miles but the base range will change depending upon the external temperature.

    Most EV drivers report at least a 20% drop from say 15 deg C to 0 dec C. My Soul Ev is currentiy doing about 100 miles, in summer I expect 120. The other factor is in wet weather the range drops a bit due to rolling resistance increasing and that's obviously more common in winter than summer.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Hi

    Some manufacturers are building a small heater unit into(/around) the battery pack to help with cold weather performance ..

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 13th Feb 18, 10:56 AM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,079 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    Hi

    ?? <Cough> ....

    Solar PV banding under the FiT scheme runs all the way up to 5MWp ... all (non stand-alone) newly installed systems <10kWp are eligible to attract the same FiT rate, depending on energy efficiency ... FiT Tariffs


    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    We looked at putting an 8kW roof panel on back in the days of the original tariffs, I think there was something like a 10% reduction in rates. Unfortunately our roof was a couple of metres short on width and about a foot short on height to fit them.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 13th Feb 18, 12:25 PM
    • 4,131 Posts
    • 5,350 Thanks
    zeupater
    We looked at putting an 8kW roof panel on back in the days of the original tariffs, I think there was something like a 10% reduction in rates. Unfortunately our roof was a couple of metres short on width and about a foot short on height to fit them.
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    Hi

    They 'played around' with the tariff scheme some time ago when the rate of success being delivered by the scheme started to make nu .. certain other technology support schemes look embarrassingly expensive at a politically sensitive time ... the <4kWp & the 4-10kWp bands still exist, but they now both pay the same rate - the tariff table in the link provided shows all of the rates which apply according to installation date, so the %age difference between the bands can be calculated ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Feb 18, 1:38 PM
    • 6,792 Posts
    • 10,949 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Not sure if I'm posting this on the correct board but have struggled to find anything more appropriate. I've an ageing deisel powered Ford Focus(ten years 75k miles) which has been brilliant but am thinking to replace. Electric(second hand) seems a possible choice especially as we have two vehicles, so can use the other for any long distances. We are retired with a mix of local journeys for school run etc and longer distances for holidays etc. I'm also keen on the idea of being self sufficient in generating electricity and considering combining the two. Our bungalow has roof of some 50 sq metres with a 22 degree pitch and being 20 degrees east of south facing. I'm thinking of filling the entire roof with panels in order to generate the max I can. On a good day in summer it could return 35kwh so I don't see a problem in supplying houehold needs(7k/day) and keeping the EV topped up. Am seeking quotations for systems of 4k only and the max that can be acheived also. Presumably I'd still get the FIT and export returns on the larger system so it would appear to me to be a sound financial investment. Am I looking through rose tinted glasses?
    Originally posted by Coastalwatch
    Hiya, if you want to chat more about PV systems, batteries and linking to EV's then there are a lot of PV'ers on the Green & Ethical forum, and PV FAQ's (see my auto-sig) for info and a quick jump to the G&E board.

    You can fit as much PV as you like, the FiT pays the same rate for 0-10kWp systems. If your inverter can export more than 3.68kW, then you'll need to ask for permission beforehand from your local DNO, but if capped at 3.68kW you are fine.

    I've been playing with ideas recently, only theories so far, but I have enough export in the better 6 months to charge an EV direct or via a large domestic battery like the Powerwall II. This is based on approx 8,000 miles per year.

    In the bottom six months PV + battery will help reduce import and provide heating from a small heat pump (ASHP / air con), and in those 6 months E7 can be used to charge the car.

    So let's say 4,000 miles from PV + battery, then 4,000 miles (around 1,000kWh) from E7 at 7p = an annual car 'fuel' bill of approx 70.

    Hope these ideas and thoughts help. Please start a thread on the G&E board if you want to explore the PV issue further.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 13th Feb 18, 1:39 PM
    • 7,288 Posts
    • 2,944 Thanks
    almillar
    Official figures are unachievable so why publish utter rubbish, if I could get half the stated average I would be happy!
    Did you read my explanation? They ARE achievable. Long journeys ARE also achievable. But not at the same time! That's a defining feature of a hybrid.
    I leased the car based on 19k miles per year, it doesn't take a genius to work out that on this mileage I'm not doing local jaunts to the office, I work from home as well!
    I agree, you may have been mis-sold. Go back to where you bought it from.

    does this mean you can drive a hybrid in electric only mode for more than 20 or 30 miles?
    Some, yes. i3, definitely (100+ miles). If you buy a hybrid though, expecting to drive 20 miles on electric only all year, you'll be disappointed. Just hit the throttle too hard, turn on the air con, or some other variables, and the engine will kick in.

    Thanks guys. The BMW does seem to be a heck of a lot cheaper than a Tesla. 37 grand is still a lot of money.
    The i3? It's 30k and a lot smaller.

    I clearly just need to let go of those last few shreds of my grasp of reality and technical understanding
    That sarcasm isn't very funny after you mix up Amps and Watts.

    And why Toyota's spec sheet quoting Ah battery figures (without voltage) is seemingly designed to trip the unwary.
    BMW generally quote Amp hours instead of Watt hours too - it's daft and hopefully they'll quit. Most EVs are 400v but as we've discovered, there are exceptions!
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 13th Feb 18, 3:33 PM
    • 801 Posts
    • 539 Thanks
    David Aston
    "Thanks guys. The BMW does seem to be a heck of a lot cheaper than a Tesla. 37 grand is still a lot of money."

    I think that is my quote. I have got myself mixed up on the BMW webpage. Could it have been a model with this fabled range extender which showed as 37 grand?
    Also, I take your point about the size.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Feb 18, 10:11 PM
    • 9,055 Posts
    • 9,948 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Hi

    Some manufacturers are building a small heater unit into(/around) the battery pack to help with cold weather performance ..

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    True but since you cant get soemthing for nothing when it comes to physics, that only has a small mitigating factor. Tesla are probably the most advanced, but Tesla ranges still drop in winter.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 13th Feb 18, 10:15 PM
    • 9,055 Posts
    • 9,948 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    "Thanks guys. The BMW does seem to be a heck of a lot cheaper than a Tesla. 37 grand is still a lot of money."

    I think that is my quote. I have got myself mixed up on the BMW webpage. Could it have been a model with this fabled range extender which showed as 37 grand?
    Also, I take your point about the size.
    Originally posted by David Aston
    Easily, many company car buyers are struggling to keep them under the 40k limit. The 30k figure quoted by almillar would be the bottom of the range model with no range extender and zero add ons.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Feb 18, 10:16 PM
    • 17,204 Posts
    • 15,514 Thanks
    AdrianC
    True but since you cant get soemthing for nothing when it comes to physics, that only has a small mitigating factor. Tesla are probably the most advanced, but Tesla ranges still drop in winter.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Yup. There's a fair bit of thermal mass to heat up in a big battery pack - and that consumes electrickery. If they're installing heaters, then I guess the heating loses less range than having the battery cold. Whether that applies to temperate climates such as ours, or just extremes such as Scandinavia/Canada/Northern US...
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Feb 18, 8:30 AM
    • 6,792 Posts
    • 10,949 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    A question for EV'ers.

    I've been watching a you tube channel called Tesla Time News, it's a father and son combo, and between them/family they have a Leaf, Tesla X and a Model 3.

    They raised an interesting point that range of around 200-250 miles is fine, and that they think companies aiming for 400 miles, 500 miles etc are missing the point, as 200 miles and cheaper (smaller battery) is a better option for most, especially with fast chargers. I get the impression that once you adapt to an EV, you now longer 'need' to compete with petrol/diesel tank ranges.

    Sounds like a good point, but what do I know!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 14th Feb 18, 9:04 AM
    • 569 Posts
    • 1,079 Thanks
    ElefantEd
    A question for EV'ers.

    I've been watching a you tube channel called Tesla Time News, it's a father and son combo, and between them/family they have a Leaf, Tesla X and a Model 3.

    They raised an interesting point that range of around 200-250 miles is fine, and that they think companies aiming for 400 miles, 500 miles etc are missing the point, as 200 miles and cheaper (smaller battery) is a better option for most, especially with fast chargers. I get the impression that once you adapt to an EV, you now longer 'need' to compete with petrol/diesel tank ranges.

    Sounds like a good point, but what do I know!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Absolutely. Thnk of it this way: a petrol/diesel car may have a range of 500 miles, but how often do you use this without stopping? For the majority of the people in the UK, the answer is rarely to never. Obviously there will be some exceptions. But in general with an EV, all you care about is "can I get to my destination comfortably without needing a recharge?" and so long as you can charge there, by the time you move on, you're refuelled. And with journeys of 4-500 miles, people tend to stop for a break half way, and thus have the opportunity to recharge then (which is where rapids are handy).

    If the next EV I buy has a range of 200 miles (and I think it will) I can't envisage many situations where that's not plenty of range. In the once in a blue-moon situation where it's not, and recharging en route isn't possible, then I would just hire an ICE vehicle. Or take the train.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 14th Feb 18, 9:09 AM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,079 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    Absolutely. Thnk of it this way: a petrol/diesel car may have a range of 500 miles, but how often do you use this without stopping? For the majority of the people in the UK, the answer is rarely to never. Obviously there will be some exceptions. But in general with an EV, all you care about is "can I get to my destination comfortably without needing a recharge?" and so long as you can charge there, by the time you move on, you're refuelled. And with journeys of 4-500 miles, people tend to stop for a break half way, and thus have the opportunity to recharge then (which is where rapids are handy).

    If the next EV I buy has a range of 200 miles (and I think it will) I can't envisage many situations where that's not plenty of range. In the once in a blue-moon situation where it's not, and recharging en route isn't possible, then I would just hire an ICE vehicle. Or take the train.
    Originally posted by ElefantEd
    What is the fundamental difference? Petrol stations are relatively rare and inconvenient whereas literally everywhere but Glastonbury Festival has a 3 pin plug in reach of an extension lead. Yes, a slight exaggeration for those who live in terraces with no frontage, there are particular problems, but convenient range for traditionally fuelled cars is based on the refill being dead time - including a potentially significant detour to fill up.
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