Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 37
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 10th Jan 18, 3:42 PM
    • 14,145 Posts
    • 18,734 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Perhaps we should start again
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Indeed. I'll point you back to the post that I was originally responding too. Specifically the part in bold...

    Not just them. I read an article the other day, a major spark plug manufacture was branching out into wholly different fields, using its expertise in ceramic technology for new purposes, because they could forsee that in about ten years time that business was going to massively decline.

    Who else? Companies that make gearboxes? Toast.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Note the word "companies", not "industries". I used ZF as an example of a company, a manufacturer of traditional gearboxes, that is unlikely to be "toast" because they have embraced the EV revolution and diversified into integrated electric powertrain systems.
    ďNever argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.Ē - Mark Twain
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 10th Jan 18, 4:12 PM
    • 7,322 Posts
    • 6,610 Thanks
    Herzlos
    Hiya, apologies for the pedantry, but to take up most of a roof is probably more like 4kWp, with current 13% to 18%(ish) efficient panels. In ten years we'll probably have silicon/Perovskite panels in the low 30%, so roof space wise, you'll be able to get twice as much up there.

    Note - in hot sunny conditions that 4kWp array will probably run at about 3kW.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    No worries about pedanty; I'm not familiar with what solar panels can do now. I figured we don't get enough sun in the UK for it to make real sense, but there's parts of the world where we do. Assuming a panel on a car roof can trickle charge enough to do a few miles a day, that might actually cover the usage for a lot of people, or at least take the edge of.
    For instance, park your car at the airport for a 2 week holiday, come back to it fully charged.
    I don't imagine we'll ever hit an efficiency level where it'd be self powered, but getting a couple of miles a day 'free' might not be too bad for a lot of people.
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 10th Jan 18, 5:10 PM
    • 813 Posts
    • 542 Thanks
    David Aston
    I see that Tesla x100 was parked outside Aldi again. Surely one of you guys is running one of their motors and can give us a heads up?
    On principle, I wouldn't buy a car named "Leaf". Mustang or Corvette, yes!
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Jan 18, 7:12 PM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Indeed. I'll point you back to the post that I was originally responding too. Specifically the part in bold...



    Note the word "companies", not "industries". I used ZF as an example of a company, a manufacturer of traditional gearboxes, that is unlikely to be "toast" because they have embraced the EV revolution and diversified into integrated electric powertrain systems.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    I believe that in the context of that post, 'companies that make gearboxes' (note the plural) = gearbox industry, not each individual company.

    I think your desperation was best highlighted when you ignored coal/tin industry and instead tried to spin into mining industry.

    So, I'll ask again - Do you think the industry producing single ratio fixed reduction gears, will be as large (in monetary terms) as the current gearbox industry producing large, heavy and expensive multi gear variable devices with reverse gears too?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Jan 18, 7:25 PM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    No worries about pedanty; I'm not familiar with what solar panels can do now. I figured we don't get enough sun in the UK for it to make real sense, but there's parts of the world where we do. Assuming a panel on a car roof can trickle charge enough to do a few miles a day, that might actually cover the usage for a lot of people, or at least take the edge of.
    For instance, park your car at the airport for a 2 week holiday, come back to it fully charged.
    I don't imagine we'll ever hit an efficiency level where it'd be self powered, but getting a couple of miles a day 'free' might not be too bad for a lot of people.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    It's pedantry, not pedanty ....... boy oh boy .....

    Joking aside, no probs, PV and EV's are an interesting combination. Though of course there's the issue of whether the car is home whilst it's sunny.

    I came to an interesting conclusion recently that we could drive 'for free'* for approx 6 months of the year if we had a battery with around 15kWh of storage, such as the Tesla Powerwall (13.5kWh).

    On average we generate 20kWh per day in the summer (typically 10-30kWh), consume approx 5kWh and export 15kWh. We buy approx 2.5kWh per day, so allowing for some leeway, we'd still have 10kWh of the 13.5kWh battery left for the EV.

    At 30-40 miles per 10kWh, that's actually more than our average mileage which is about 22miles per day (8k pa). So perhaps 7kWh per day needed, which widens our ability to meet EV needs to all of the better 6 months. Not bad.

    The other 6 months, no spare for the EV, either too little gen or any spare would go on ASHP use, but I suppose it's then that I'd get E7 for car charging, and battery charging (to avoid higher priced leccy during the day).

    *Free after spending many thousands of pounds on PV and batts!

    [Edit - I've just realised that you were referring to the car roof, I was thinking house roof. Doh! But, yes, every little bit would count so long as the PV car roof option isn't ridiculously priced. M.]
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 10-01-2018 at 7:31 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jan 18, 8:30 AM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Regarding the impact of EV's on the grid, this report from BMW, following an 18 month trial might be of interest. It used 100 volunteer I3 owners whose cars charged when best for the grid and provided grid support. It's a little old, but I only found it yesterday.

    It shows that EV's can reduce the peak load more and more as their numbers increase, see Figs 21 & 22.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Jan 18, 12:46 PM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Big news on Workhorse's pick up truck, they are now going to sell to the public.

    It's a range extender vehicle using the same tiny engine as the UPS style truck they also sell.

    It'll do 80 miles on leccy only, is all wheel drive, and something of interest to utility buyers is also an on-site generator for leccy.

    Workhorse W-15 Orders Now Open To The Public
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Jan 18, 1:21 PM
    • 17,602 Posts
    • 15,965 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Big news on Workhorse's pick up truck, they are now going to sell to the public.

    It's a range extender vehicle using the same tiny engine as the UPS style truck they also sell.

    It'll do 80 miles on leccy only, is all wheel drive, and something of interest to utility buyers is also an on-site generator for leccy.

    Workhorse W-15 Orders Now Open To The Public
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    A hybrid, albeit an extended-range one. $52k, or $45k after government subsidy.

    To put that into perspective, a Ford F150 (continually the best-selling vehicle of any kind - not just pickup - in the US) starts at $27k, or $32k with 4wd.

    Orders "for delivery in 2019". Ford announced a year ago that there'll be a hybrid F150 "by 2020", with on-site electricity supply.
    https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/3/14153852/ford-hybrid-f150-mustang-electric-car-2020
    More of a surprise is probably why Toyota are only recently "seriously considering" the concept.
    http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2017/10/toyota-isn-t-ruling-out-the-idea-of-a-hybrid-pickup-truck.html

    Ford are already doing fleet trials of a PHEV Transit Custom in the UK.
    https://www.ford.co.uk/shop/specialist-sales/fleet/phev
    ...and while they don't sell the Transit Custom in the states, they do sell the smaller Transit Connect and larger Transit there.

    Workforce are going to have a very hard sell, novelty value apart.

    From the end of that CleanTechnica.com article...
    Full disclosure: The author owns shares in Workhorse.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Jan 18, 5:30 PM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    A hybrid, albeit an extended-range one. $52k, or $45k after government subsidy.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    It's nice to see that Workhorse where able to squeeze in that range extender - when you said it would weigh over a ton and be 2.4 cubic metres in size!


    So you're looking at a trailer that can recharge, say, 200 mile range (call it 60kWh) in three hours (200 miles), plus another 60kWh for actually driving the car that distance. 120kWh in three hours, 40kW.

    This is what a 40kW diesel generator looks like.
    https://www.generac.com/industrial/products/diesel-generators/configured/40kw-diesel-generator


    With no fuel tank, it's 2m long, 1m wide, 1.2m high, and weighs just under a ton. Add another half ton for the trailer hardware. For that 700 mile range, you'd be looking at (say) 12hrs at 13 litres per hour full-load use. And, really, you'd want to go up a step - because running it flat out is not going to be at all good for life expectancy.

    'course, we'll ignore the minor detail that that's far more fuel than - say - a diesel Golf would use for the same journey...
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Do you perhaps think it's about time to end your constant negative postings?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Jan 18, 5:39 PM
    • 17,602 Posts
    • 15,965 Thanks
    AdrianC
    If you re-read all that, you might spot the rather glaring difference between what I actually said and what you're claiming I said.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 12th Jan 18, 5:49 PM
    • 14,145 Posts
    • 18,734 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    If you re-read all that, you might spot the rather glaring difference between what I actually said and what you're claiming I said.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Iím glad itís not just me!
    ďNever argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.Ē - Mark Twain
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jan 18, 9:42 AM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Excellent interview on Fully Charged looking at the barriers to EV adoption, or more correctly, how those barriers have fallen.

    I was surprised at this, but the prediction is that the disruption 'S' curve really starts to take off in 2020, as range, cost, choice and practicality (charging) are all met.

    Something else of interest was the point about ICE affordability from about 2025 onwards. The argument is quite simple - many/most cars are now on some form of lease, the lease has to take into account the re-sale value of the car at the end of the lease, by 2030 the value will be very small, so by 2025 leases will have to reflect this higher depreciation (per year) pushing up the cost considerably, and this effect will only get greater as time goes on. Interesting theory, sounds reasonable.

    Definitely worth a watch from beginning to end.

    Barriers to EV adoption | Fully Charged
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Jan 18, 8:11 AM
    • 6,983 Posts
    • 11,310 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I think the 'big boys' have gotten the message -

    Ford to invest $11bn and have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles by 2022

    The planned investment is significantly higher than the previously announced target of $4.5bn by 2020
    This paragraph suggests (to me) that the Chevy Bolt is a compliance car:

    GMís chief, Mary Barra, has promised investors the Detroit automaker will make money selling electric cars by 2021.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 15th Jan 18, 8:26 AM
    • 9,605 Posts
    • 10,683 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    This paragraph suggests (to me) that the Chevy Bolt is a compliance car:
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Yes, it seems clear that GM have no plans to produce more than 30k cars a year, which AIUI is the limit for compliance cars.

    FWIW Ford announced yesterday a forthcoming long range SUV type car for 2020 to be called Mach 1.

    https://insideevs.com/ford-confirms-mach-1-performance-suv-2020-launch/
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 15th Jan 18, 8:45 AM
    • 9,605 Posts
    • 10,683 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I believe that in the context of that post, 'companies that make gearboxes' (note the plural) = gearbox industry, not each individual company.

    I think your desperation was best highlighted when you ignored coal/tin industry and instead tried to spin into mining industry.

    So, I'll ask again - Do you think the industry producing single ratio fixed reduction gears, will be as large (in monetary terms) as the current gearbox industry producing large, heavy and expensive multi gear variable devices with reverse gears too?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Yes as the OP of that post I obviously meant the industry in totality, and foolishly didn!!!8217;t see the need to caveat it with details that some smart companies might get out of the ICE gearbox industry into related or even totally different fields. But as this is the internet obviously I should have.

    Point is, as said above, the !!!8220;traditional!!!8221; gearbox industry is going to go away. There might be one or two smarter survivors just as, for example I pointed out in another post, there!!!8217;s a spark plug company that!!!8217;s using its ceramic expertise to attempt to move into solid state batteries. But the spark plug and gearbox industries has as good prospects as the buggy whip industry had in 1900. Responding that Acme Buggy Whips transitioned into Acme custom steering wheel covers, doesn!!!8217;t negate the general point that the buggy whip industry went away.

    It all comes down to if you want to make clever points or debate the bigger picture seriously.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 15-01-2018 at 8:56 AM.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 15th Jan 18, 9:22 AM
    • 9,605 Posts
    • 10,683 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    On the contrary, I think you may be missing my point. To ensure that their business does not reduce massively, ZF are not sticking with gearbox production. They have diversified away from solely producing gearboxes and final drives to also producing integrated electric drive systems.

    A quick glance at the picture I posted or better, a perusal of their website using the link I also posted should convince you that these integrated systems are equally as large and expensive as any conventional gearbox.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    But ithat includes the engine, so in that example the ICE engine industry has gone away replaced by a simpler all in one unit. The point is that the size of those two industries, engine and gearbox, will be a small fraction of what replaces them after the transition . The fact that a clever company might be able to come up with a modular solution that replaces both (Bosch are doing the same BTW) doesnít negate the general point that whole industries are going to massively downsize at best (from their POV) or simply vanish.

    I donít understand if the argument against this change is clever point scoring or the respondents genuinely donít understand the massive changes that EV cars will bring about.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 15th Jan 18, 11:06 AM
    • 2,869 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    NigeWick
    doesnít negate the general point that whole industries are going to massively downsize at best (from their POV) or simply vanish.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    I believe you are correct and I don't think the bulk of the automotive industry understands just how huge that change is going to be when Transport as a Service really takes off in a few years time.

    The large motor manufacturers have the ability to dominate the coming autonomous electric vehicle market but most are not putting in the effort to be first off the starting blocks. And, most do not realise that there just will not be the demand for the numbers of vehicles that they are used to producing.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 15th Jan 18, 11:23 AM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,080 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    I believe you are correct and I don't think the bulk of the automotive industry understands just how huge that change is going to be when Transport as a Service really takes off in a few years time.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    I'm not convinced it ever will. There is nothing in EVs that makes TaaS more attractive as a business or usage proposition.

    A number of people have had a crack at it already but they can't address the intangibles that make everyone in a country spend stupid amounts of money to have their own car on a drive. You'd think the prime example of TaaS would be the company car, and then you recognise that it is nearly impossible to get employees not to take ownership of a car, even with strict sharing rules. You just have to look at the thousands of dusty cars by the roadsides in London - where drivers will not use their cars for weeks on end because the public transport infrastructure is more effective than driving - to realise that there has to be a massive shift (and a system to allow people to be confident that come Bank Holiday Monday they will have their car to sit in a traffic jam).

    All the infrastructure to enable TaaS has been around for years, and EVs are irrelevant to whether it takes off.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Jan 18, 11:35 AM
    • 17,602 Posts
    • 15,965 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I'm not convinced it ever will. There is nothing in EVs that makes TaaS more attractive as a business or usage proposition.
    ...
    All the infrastructure to enable TaaS has been around for years, and EVs are irrelevant to whether it takes off.
    Originally posted by IanMSpencer
    TaaS is already a reality, both in the UK (various "car clubs" and short-term hire schemes) and especially in France - AutoLib has been live since 2011 in Paris, now Lyon and Bordeaux, and really very little different to all the "Borisbike" schemes, but La Rochelle had something similar using electric versions of Peugeot 106s and Citroen Saxos in the late 90s, early 00s.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 15th Jan 18, 11:40 AM
    • 1,462 Posts
    • 1,080 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    TaaS is already a reality, both in the UK (various "car clubs" and short-term hire schemes) and especially in France - AutoLib has been live since 2011 in Paris, now Lyon and Bordeaux, and really very little different to all the "Borisbike" schemes, but La Rochelle had something similar using electric versions of Peugeot 106s and Citroen Saxos in the late 90s, early 00s.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    There is a big difference between these small scale schemes and them "really taking off" to the extent it will undermine the car industry.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

172Posts Today

1,454Users online

Martin's Twitter