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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 32
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 4th Jan 18, 10:30 PM
    • 17,602 Posts
    • 15,968 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I think you're missing the point ....
    Originally posted by zeupater
    I don't think I am, y'know. But we'll come back to that.

    Musk seems to be using Tesla to kick-start interest in the EV sector, and they're certainly doing that.
    No argument there.

    No-one, including Tesla themselves, has said that they'll be building anywhere near as many EVs as VW or Toyota currently do vehicles with ICEs
    My point about production volumes has nothing to do with EV vs ICE. That's not Tesla's production problem.

    The problem Tesla have is that they're not only standing up to the automotive industry, the vast global petrochemical corporations looking to protect their future revenue streams and the associated energy supply industry who have provided more than a little resistance to the provision of national supply-point networks (as previously seen with LPG/hydrogen etc) on capital investment grounds, but also the reticent positions of governments which see hydrocarbon based fuels as a readily taxable commodity, using environmentalism as a thinly veiled excuse.
    That starts to read a lot like a conspiracy theory, y'know... One that forget that Tesla are in bed with Mercedes, and have been in receipt of a MAHOOOOOSIVE amount of US government grant, while governments elsewhere are providing customer subsidies hand-over-fist. Just look at why Teslas sell so well in... Norway, a country with a huge sovereign wealth fund from... oil.

    For a relatively small company, their impact has been huge
    Again, I agree - to a point.

    with Elon Musk possibly acting as the largest catalyst to change of anyone connected to the automotive sector since Henry Ford
    Hmmm...

    even if I tend to agree with many that AI should have been left on the shelf at this stage in the EV development story!
    The toys and fripperies are a large part of what's made Tesla what they are. Geeks are their prime customer base. Even without the autonomy, they've gone too far with guff like the X rear doors.

    Now, getting back to the point-missing. I think you're missing my points. We can view Tesla in two ways.

    1. An interesting market disruptor. Yes, they are that - but I really don't think we'd be far from the current situation without Tesla.
    2. Some kind of total new way of looking at the automotive industry, with a product that simply walks on water. And that's where I'm coming from here.

    The S is surprisingly good, especially given the only predecessor was an Elise with an engine swap. But, of course, that's different to the individuals on the dev team being neophytes - there was a lot of established technology went into the platform, and a lot of experienced people hired. What it ISN'T is some kind of utter tech disruptor in and of itself - it's not much more than an awful lot of utterly generic cells with some relatively generic motors. Mitsubishi and others were doing things with hub motors over a decade ago - look at the Lancer Evo MiEV back in 2005. There's still no battery breakthrough - the 2170 cell is just a repackage of the same chemistry as the utterly generic 18650, made possible by the scale and the Panasonic partnership. And this is just looking at Tesla's home territory. Put it up against the established competition and look objectively at their home territory - the minor details like build quality - and it comes up wanting. But most Tesla buyers are happy to overlook that... currently.

    What Tesla and their cheerleaders don't seem to appreciate is that they need to start to be taken seriously as car manufacturers. They've proven that there's a market - and that market is going to very quickly become busy with properly developed mainstream competition, simply because the likes of VAG and Toyota don't really want to watch their business dwindle. Strange that...

    Half a million sales a year might not be threatening the big boys very hard, but it is going to be very hard for Tesla to maintain once the initial geek-chic gloss wanes. And unless they get the production problems addressed VERY soon, those half-million deposits are going to start wandering - it's one thing being able to leave the glossies prominently on your desk to show your geek-creds, but a set of keys would be very nice indeed. Elon Musk does not want to be Henry Ford. He's going to start getting very bored quite soon - and Tesla is Elon Musk.

    Being in zealous denial about those very real issues, and simply waving yet more shiny vapourware, helps nobody - certainly not Tesla.

    Then there's the issues facing EV adoption as a whole - and, for Joe Public, they all come back to range anxiety, real or perceived. Again, being in zealous denial helps nobody. The infrastructural issues that will come with widespread adoption fall into the out-of-sight-out-of-mind basket for Joe Public.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jan 18, 8:33 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Then there's the issues facing EV adoption as a whole - and, for Joe Public, they all come back to range anxiety, real or perceived. Again, being in zealous denial helps nobody. The infrastructural issues that will come with widespread adoption fall into the out-of-sight-out-of-mind basket for Joe Public.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I believe all of those issues have been answered by actual rollout of infrastructure already (in line with EV numbers) and by responses to you by EV owners giving actual/real information.

    You can keep raising them as unseen, or unanswerable, but they are neither.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 5th Jan 18, 9:29 AM
    • 2,870 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    NigeWick
    You also need to keep in mind the Chinese are happy to build as many fossil fuel fired plants as necessary to meet demand and control most of the rare earth market needed for electrification, again largely due to their disregard for the environment.
    Originally posted by welfayre
    No doubt that's why they installed more solar generation than any other country last year. I suspect they used what was available (fossil fuels) to produce the wealth required in order to go green now.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • almillar
    • By almillar 5th Jan 18, 1:05 PM
    • 7,375 Posts
    • 2,991 Thanks
    almillar
    who deny all facts and reality when inconvenient.
    I like the taste of the Kool-Aid, but I try not to guzzle it. I think you would agree that you shouldn't be quoting the list price of ANY car as 'how much it actually costs' - because it doesn't. There are discounts, sorry, contributions, off the list price, and so many people finance their cars anyway. And you know this. BMW and Renault have discounts on, at the same time of months of delivery time. That's the truth.
    Renault quote the NEDC figures and immediately rubbish them themselves giving more realistic numbers. Again, if someone asked what MPG they would get in any ICE car, they can't just expect to jump in the car and get the quoted MPG figures - there are plenty of complaints if this very nature on this forum. My point? You quoted official stuff, and seemed to give it more credence than a person's own personal experience, and I think you know better.
    have you seen the launch footage, and the test rides afterwards
    Didn't know about test rides, no. But we can't talk about this truck like it's a current vehicle, it isn't, until customers are driving it on the road. So if they were doing test rides, yes, it's more than a 'styling mock up' - it's a prototype in my book.

    while governments elsewhere are providing customer subsidies hand-over-fist.
    Small point - ANY manufacturer can take advantage of this - it's not a Tesla subsidy, it's an EV subsidy - level playing field here.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jan 18, 3:02 PM
    • 6,997 Posts
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    Martyn1981
    Didn't know about test rides, no. But we can't talk about this truck like it's a current vehicle, it isn't, until customers are driving it on the road. So if they were doing test rides, yes, it's more than a 'styling mock up' - it's a prototype in my book.
    Originally posted by almillar
    That's correct, I'd also call it a 'styling mock up' or perhaps a pre-production model, but based on the as stated hardware (4 motors etc as visible when filmed later on by the guests). I think Adrian thinks it's a concept vehicle, which admittedly usually don't have working powertrains etc.

    Speaking of the motors, does everyone appreciate how significant that move is. The truck won't have a purpose made motor, but will instead simply use 4 Model 3 motors.

    That's also why they are giving it a 1,000,000 mile breakdown guarantee, as the motors are independent and the truck will 'drive like a diesel' on just 2 motors.

    The ability to share kit across models as varied as mid range cars, and HGV's will save a fortune.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 05-01-2018 at 3:04 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Jan 18, 3:37 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Those with concerns over the ability of grids to cope with any instantaneous EV demand, might find this article interesting, as it covers a deployment of charger + battery to help balance out peaks and troughs, and to take advantage of cheap leccy prices.

    GreenWay Launches First “GridBooster” EV Fast-Charging System In Central & Eastern Europe
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 5th Jan 18, 3:59 PM
    • 4,177 Posts
    • 5,397 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... Speaking of the motors, does everyone appreciate how significant that move is. The truck won't have a purpose made motor, but will instead simply use 4 Model 3 motors.

    That's also why they are giving it a 1,000,000 mile breakdown guarantee, as the motors are independent and the truck will 'drive like a diesel' on just 2 motors.

    The ability to share kit across models as varied as mid range cars, and HGV's will save a fortune.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    That's exactly the same point as made earlier regarding the Leaf motor being uprated ... a simple single part number in the designer's component selection-box makes total sense & using software to limit performance where necessary is far preferable to tooling up for various derivatives and managing unnecessary complex component logistics.

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 5th Jan 18, 11:41 PM
    • 242 Posts
    • 229 Thanks
    gzoom
    Good to see the same people are still arguing about the same EV 'concerns' .

    Anyways for me I'm coming up to 3 years of owing an eletric car and 10 months since swapping the Leaf for a Tesla.

    Have covered 12K miles in the Tesla since March 2017 and 26K EV miles in total. Longest trip was Leicester to Edinburgh and back, also have taken 6 colleagues from Leicester to Southamtopn in a 320 mile roundtrip in one day with no problems. Currently planning trip to south France this summer.

    To say the Tesla is the best car Ive ever owned by far is an understatement. We have now put in a reservation for the Model 3. The 3 will replace me wifes current car and let us go fully electric for personal transportation, 2019/20 timeline will do us fine, gives us longer to save up for the AWD 'P' version .







    Last edited by gzoom; 06-01-2018 at 5:17 AM.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 6th Jan 18, 6:55 AM
    • 14,171 Posts
    • 18,778 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Good to see the same people are still arguing about the same EV 'concerns' .

    Anyways for me I'm coming up to 3 years of owing an eletric car and 10 months since swapping the Leaf for a Tesla.
    Originally posted by gzoom
    Can you tow with it?

    Edit: Answered my own question. Yes, but it seems not in the UK/EU as not type approved.
    Last edited by Gloomendoom; 06-01-2018 at 7:02 AM.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jan 18, 7:29 AM
    • 242 Posts
    • 229 Thanks
    gzoom
    Can you tow with it?

    Edit: Answered my own question. Yes, but it seems not in the UK/EU as not type approved.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    The Tesla? Yes it has a tow hitch supplied by Tesla.

    But I've never towed anything ever in any car and don't intend to, other UK owners have though. I will probably get a tow mounted bike carrier once my daughter is old enough for a push bike .

    Last edited by gzoom; 06-01-2018 at 7:37 AM.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 6th Jan 18, 9:23 AM
    • 14,171 Posts
    • 18,778 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    The Tesla? Yes it has a tow hitch supplied by Tesla.
    Originally posted by gzoom
    Thanks. I did a search but got conflicting results. We have considered an EV as a second car but want the ability to tow. Unfortunately, very few of the EVs available seem to have the capability and a Model X is way over our budget for a car that would be used primarily for commuting.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Jan 18, 9:32 AM
    • 17,602 Posts
    • 15,968 Thanks
    AdrianC
    For a hitch-mount bike rack, a towbar doesn't have to be type approved - since you aren't towing. So if an aftermarket bar is available in the States, it'd be legal here for a rack - but not to tow with, unless it's been type approved here. The effect on any warranty will be a separate question...

    Where you've got a platform that's available electric or not, and the IC is type-approved while the electric isn't, it's probably because the rear floor differs for the battery compartment, losing the type-approved mounting points.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Jan 18, 10:47 AM
    • 2,870 Posts
    • 1,159 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Longest trip was Leicester to Edinburgh and back,
    Originally posted by gzoom
    My longest is 286 miles each way in a 30kWh Leaf. Two stops going and three coming back due to locations of rapid chargers. A number of people came to ask questions whilst the car was charging. Most concerned range and some astonishment that it is relatively easy to do long distances using the motorway network set up by Ecotricity (with quite a bit of cash from Nissan).
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 6th Jan 18, 10:50 AM
    • 242 Posts
    • 229 Thanks
    gzoom
    For a hitch-mount bike rack, a towbar doesn't have to be type approved - since you aren't towing. So if an aftermarket bar is available in the States, it'd be legal here for a rack - but not to tow with, unless it's been type approved here. The effect on any warranty will be a separate question....
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    The Model X is rated to tow from the factory, the hitch is supplied by Tesla not an aftermarket or dealer supplied option. Am not which other EV can tow.

    But having said that towing ablity of a car has no relevance to me personally, though am not complaining about having the functionality if ever needed.
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 6th Jan 18, 10:50 AM
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    • 1,159 Thanks
    NigeWick
    We have considered an EV as a second car but want the ability to tow.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    The new Leaf may have the capability due to the uprated motor. I read somewhere that this was the reason for the extra oomph, but, I can't find where I saw it.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 6th Jan 18, 11:04 AM
    • 9,609 Posts
    • 10,696 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I wonder how my employer would react if I had an electric car and the couldn't get into today, due to a power cut last night?

    I know of a few areas where the power was off for 3+ days after previous storms.
    Originally posted by Tammykitty
    People always come up with these edge cases as an excuse. Whats your mileage to work? 10 miles? 20? Why would you run down to that little, do you run your petrol car until the warning light comes on? If your mileage to work is more than 20 or so, well you've got enough miles to go to a rapid charger and a 30 minute charge will top you up.

    For some reason many seem to think if you dont plug an electric car in every night it will be flat in the morning, like a phone
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 6th Jan 18, 11:05 AM
    • 9,609 Posts
    • 10,696 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    The new Leaf may have the capability due to the uprated motor. I read somewhere that this was the reason for the extra oomph, but, I can't find where I saw it.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    AFAIK you'll have to wait for the 60kWh Leaf version due in about a year.
    • Iceweasel
    • By Iceweasel 6th Jan 18, 11:43 AM
    • 4,322 Posts
    • 3,175 Thanks
    Iceweasel
    My longest is 286 miles each way in a 30kWh Leaf. Two stops going and three coming back due to locations of rapid chargers. A number of people came to ask questions whilst the car was charging. Most concerned range and some astonishment that it is relatively easy to do long distances using the motorway network set up by Ecotricity (with quite a bit of cash from Nissan).
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    How long were the stops to recharge?

    286 miles in not that far, so how would you fare on a trip to the South of France say on holiday.

    Twice a year we travel 2500 miles (one way) to visit the in-laws in a 3 litre diesel. With 4 up it's much cheaper and 'greener' than flying and then having to use a hire car when we get there. As for the journey time, and planning for re-charging stops - the mind boggles.

    I have no idea of how long it would be before an EV could tackle a journey like that.

    I'm all in favour of as many people as possible using an EV for commuting etc. but it's pretty obvious that they are not going to replace other methods of propulsion any time soon.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jan 18, 11:54 AM
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    Martyn1981
    How long were the stops to recharge?

    286 miles in not that far, so how would you fare on a trip to the South of France say on holiday.

    Twice a year we travel 2500 miles (one way) to visit the in-laws in a 3 litre diesel. With 4 up it's much cheaper and 'greener' than flying and then having to use a hire car when we get there. As for the journey time, and planning for re-charging stops - the mind boggles.

    I have no idea of how long it would be before an EV could tackle a journey like that.

    I'm all in favour of as many people as possible using an EV for commuting etc. but it's pretty obvious that they are not going to replace other methods of propulsion any time soon.
    Originally posted by Iceweasel
    One possible option would be to hire a car for that long trip. That way you could benefit from having a more efficient car the rest of the time.

    I suppose it could even be a long range EV you hire, depending on how suitable that would be for you and yours.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 6th Jan 18, 11:57 AM
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    Martyn1981
    As well as buses and taxi's, China is also making big moves on light freight.

    EV Revolution In China — Next Stop: Delivery & Freight Vehicles
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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