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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 160
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 11th Jan 19, 1:14 PM
    • 8,870 Posts
    • 8,198 Thanks
    Herzlos
    An electric Zafira with a 200 mile real world range would be a game changer.



    The drop in additional cars could go either way - if they are usually bought used and run into the ground they'd result in a drop in demand and push the price of used cars down. However if they are usually bought newer and sold on later they'd result in a drop in supply and push the price of used cars up. There'd likely be a huge drop in ownership demand if robo-taxis were popular though, which would have to push up the price of private ownership.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Jan 19, 6:33 PM
    • 7,989 Posts
    • 12,627 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    An electric Zafira with a 200 mile real world range would be a game changer.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    Especially if they are giving them away for £9.5k like our baby back when Vauxhall were 'dumping' excess stock. Well, one can dream!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 11th Jan 19, 9:25 PM
    • 937 Posts
    • 640 Thanks
    David Aston
    Could I ask you guys, how well modern electric cars hold their charge?
    If I don't start our Jazz for two months, say, I don't expect that the petrol in the tank will fail to work. With a current electric, might I need a bit of charging, beforehand?
    what I am getting at, is an additional expense of electric cars possibly, for a low mileage user such as myself?
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 12th Jan 19, 10:46 AM
    • 2,978 Posts
    • 1,293 Thanks
    NigeWick
    Falling prices, increased choice and of course, 2nd hand availability will all have improved by then.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I must admit to seriously thinking about what is coming in the next three years. I am therefore considering buying my 30kWh Leaf when the lease runs out in June, cancelling the Kona order and seeing what's available in 2021. It seems that Hyundai keep postponing delivery dates due to demand from what I'll term "influencers" who are getting priority.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 12th Jan 19, 10:59 AM
    • 15,565 Posts
    • 21,673 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Could I ask you guys, how well modern electric cars hold their charge?
    If I don't start our Jazz for two months, say, I don't expect that the petrol in the tank will fail to work. With a current electric, might I need a bit of charging, beforehand?
    what I am getting at, is an additional expense of electric cars possibly, for a low mileage user such as myself?
    Originally posted by David Aston
    I keep my IC car hooked up to a battery optimiser/charger when it's not being used for long periods.

    I can't see it being a problem with an EV. I would expect the static drain on an electric car's battery to be roughly similar but, in comparison, the battery capacity is huge.

    If you are worried, you could always just leave it plugged into the charger when it isn't being used. That is what I would do.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
    • docmatt
    • By docmatt 12th Jan 19, 12:13 PM
    • 892 Posts
    • 462 Thanks
    docmatt
    Could I ask you guys, how well modern electric cars hold their charge?
    If I don't start our Jazz for two months, say, I don't expect that the petrol in the tank will fail to work. With a current electric, might I need a bit of charging, beforehand?
    what I am getting at, is an additional expense of electric cars possibly, for a low mileage user such as myself?
    Originally posted by David Aston
    If I left the Tesla for two months it would be dead as a doornail and would need recovery. In these current temps I’d expect 2% a day loss. Leafs are pretty good I think not like Tesla’s.
    It’s called ‘Vampire Drain’ if you want to google it.
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 12th Jan 19, 12:28 PM
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    David Aston
    Thanks for your comments guys.
    So, purely on a running cost basis, the cost of petrol/diesel is replaced by the increase in one's electricity bill in order to charge the car. Additionally, presumably, the constant trickle charge to ensure it will start after two months does become a significant extra compared to oil based fuel?
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 12th Jan 19, 2:04 PM
    • 2,232 Posts
    • 3,169 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    You'd only want to partially charge it every few days and then top up the previous night if you knew you were going to be doing a longer journey.



    I've got an ICE but don't do much mileage, but I always have enough petrol for unplanned dashes to the hospital when ancient parent has problems. For longer trips I'd make sure I fuelled up, but these days I bnever get a full tank. You could probably work out a similar protocol for an EV: I don't think you'd waste much through battery loses.
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 12th Jan 19, 2:37 PM
    • 937 Posts
    • 640 Thanks
    David Aston
    I suppose to be fair silverwhistle, I do put our Jazz on trickle charge every few weeks of non use, so that would equate to popping some juice into an electric periodically cost wise!
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jan 19, 8:18 AM
    • 7,989 Posts
    • 12,627 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Some interesting 2018 US EV data.

    US EV Sales Surpass 2% In 2018 — 9 EV Sales Charts

    Ok, the huge jump from 1.16% to 2.08% is almost entirely down to the TM3, but it's not like that car is going away, and other (non-Tesla's) are rolling out, so that's great.

    My eye was caught by the chart showing that peak ICE for light vehicle sales in the US was reached in 2016.

    For me, from an environmental point of view, I think this looks promising if other manufacturers look to EV's at scale, especially light trucks, we may see the start of the 'S' curve.

    Edit - and a shout out for the Zoe in France:

    Renault Zoe Pulls French EV Market To New Heights — #CleanTechnica Electric Car Sales Report
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 13-01-2019 at 8:21 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jan 19, 8:49 AM
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    • 12,627 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Big changes ahead are being predicted ...... no, there's a surprise!

    Stricken carmakers stall at the crossroads of a radical future

    But it is the long-term structural issues that cast the longest shadows. Electrification, autonomous vehicle development and the threat posed by ride-hailing services to personal vehicle sales pose challenges that not all companies will be able to meet.

    According to Williams, the industry has seen nothing like this since Henry Ford’s Model T rolled off the production line in 1908. “In that [following] period, the US industry defined the idea of the people’s car – an internal combustion engine with a gearbox and so on,” he said.

    “What happened after world war two was that the Europeans and Japanese downsized the model. But European cars like the VW Beetle, the Fiat 500, the Mini, would all have been recognised by Henry Ford. The real big thing is that the car, as Ford and General Motors invented it, is going to be reinvented with electrification and autonomy.”
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 13th Jan 19, 8:56 AM
    • 8,870 Posts
    • 8,198 Thanks
    Herzlos
    If I left the Tesla for two months it would be dead as a doornail and would need recovery. In these current temps I’d expect 2% a day loss. Leafs are pretty good I think not like Tesla’s.
    It’s called ‘Vampire Drain’ if you want to google it.
    Originally posted by docmatt
    Are there any problems with letting it run totally flat and just recharge it the day before bringing it back into use?

    Presumably, with a drain level like that the car is still doing something even when not in use, do I wonder if there's scope for a hibernate mode.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 13th Jan 19, 9:13 AM
    • 20,468 Posts
    • 19,135 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Are there any problems with letting it run totally flat and just recharge it the day before bringing it back into use?
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    There certainly used to be with the original Tesla Roadster (the Lotus Elise-based one). Letting that go flat-flat (Tesla said 11 weeks from 100% charge) meant the battery was "bricked", and officially needed replacing completely, although it's entirely likely people have come up with workarounds now.



    Tesla swore blind on the Model S launch that it wasn't a problem any more.

    https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-you-cant-brick-model-s-batteries/
    • NigeWick
    • By NigeWick 13th Jan 19, 9:53 AM
    • 2,978 Posts
    • 1,293 Thanks
    NigeWick
    I see that Nissan have not bothered with a proper battery thermal management system in their 62 kWh Leaf. They've put in some sort of fan to try and cool the battery pack when it's rapid charging. Other makers have a decent system that keeps the battery pack at a constant temperature that will maximise its life.
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
    • John Blaze
    • By John Blaze 13th Jan 19, 12:25 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    John Blaze
    Overpriced
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jan 19, 4:49 PM
    • 7,989 Posts
    • 12,627 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I see that Nissan have not bothered with a proper battery thermal management system in their 62 kWh Leaf. They've put in some sort of fan to try and cool the battery pack when it's rapid charging. Other makers have a decent system that keeps the battery pack at a constant temperature that will maximise its life.
    Originally posted by NigeWick
    From what I've read and watched, their decision has not garnered any praise. Some of the more extreme comments being that they are throwing away the good work they've done getting to where they are, and that they simply haven't taken 'rapidgate' as seriously as they should..

    I've got a big soft spot for Nissan and the Leaf helping to push EV's forward, I hope they don't muck it up now.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 13th Jan 19, 5:00 PM
    • 273 Posts
    • 263 Thanks
    gzoom
    Are there any problems with letting it run totally flat and just recharge it the day before bringing it back into use?

    Presumably, with a drain level like that the car is still doing something even when not in use, do I wonder if there's scope for a hibernate mode.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    The battery itself doesn't 'loss' any charge, in the event of a major impact the battery connectors automatically 'dislodge' to stop possibility of thermal run away. There are reports of 'written off' Tesla battery packs been found to have pretty much exactly the same state of charge as at the time of the crash 6 months+ after the event when someone 'revives" the battery.

    When just left 'off' normally the car really isnt off, data is constantly been sent to Tesla and downloaded - I've had full software updates appear on the car with no WiFi connection which means the car is doing itself via internal mobile data. Equally everytime you check the mobile App the car 'wakes up', finally there is some suggestion the battery thermal management is constantly monitoring the car.

    Its not unusual to see 2-5% drops in battery capacity when left overnight, but if you turn off mobile data, turn on energy save, don't check the App the energy drain is no where near as bad. When I leave ours at the airport car park on holiday I turn all the features off, I did a test a while ago, in 10days the battery state of charge dropped by only 2% which is fine. As long as you don't park up with 10% left its not an issue.

    The problem with running it down to 0% is there is a chance your end up also draining the 12V battery (which is charged by the main battery) leaving no energy for the BMS to run if the 12V is flat - These battery packs cannot just be 'plugged' in without proper management, thats how thermal run away happens and fires start. In reality if the car dies due no charge the saftest thing to do is to do total shut down ASAP and get towed to a charger that day/night.

    If your leaving it 2 months you can manually disconnect the main traction battery which will stop all energy drain but I woudlnt advise doing that for a car with an intact warranty!! - Your need dealer level software to reboot the car i think, though certain third parties in the US can do this, and maybe one chap in the UK.

    Got to Heathrow with 56% charge.


    10 days later 54% charge.

    Last edited by gzoom; 13-01-2019 at 5:12 PM.
    • David Aston
    • By David Aston 13th Jan 19, 6:42 PM
    • 937 Posts
    • 640 Thanks
    David Aston
    Great post gzoom.
    Can I ask you what you would consider, the least amount of money, an ice to Tesla convert, would need, including home charging to get on the road in the UK?
    • gzoom
    • By gzoom 14th Jan 19, 6:33 AM
    • 273 Posts
    • 263 Thanks
    gzoom
    Great post gzoom.
    Can I ask you what you would consider, the least amount of money, an ice to Tesla convert, would need, including home charging to get on the road in the UK?
    Originally posted by David Aston
    If your talking about going EV the best value car is the Hyundai Kona or Kia Niro EV, so your looking at £30kish. They are both great cars.

    You need to be a bit mad to spend the kind of money Tesla want for a S/X, which starting this morning is going to be £90k as Tesla is dropping the 'cheaper' S/X from their range. Even the 'cheap' Model 3 that is due in the UK will be £50k when it arrives in this summer!!!

    A used Model S is getting better value for money, but your still need the best part of £40-45k to get into a 4/5 year old Model S.

    The Kona for alot less ££££ has more range than my 75D X and matches the £90K 100D X for range.

    HOWEVER, if you like cars and enjoy driving them Tesla is still the best EV package. We are currently looking for a second EV, and an AWD Model 3 or a used 100D Model S are rhe top candidates. Although I think we'll wait another 18 months or so as I do like the look of the Audi eTron GT.

    Our X will stay with us till its 8 year unlimited miles battery/motor warranty runs out, if we didn't have any EV I would be looking for a used P85D S for around £55k.

    Yes the Kona and Niro EV offer more range for less ££££, but cars for me have never been about saving money/getting value. Nearly 24 months into Tesla ownership I still smile everytime I get into the car, I cannot say I would feel the same about the Kona/Niro, yes there would be more £££££ in the bankaccount but you only live once. I had the chance to bank a £4k 'profit' after our first Tesla was written off 18 months ago, instead I put paid £4k to get into another Tesla. As they say 'there is one born every minute
    Last edited by gzoom; 14-01-2019 at 6:36 AM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Jan 19, 7:36 AM
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    • 12,627 Thanks
    Martyn1981

    10 days later 54% charge.
    Originally posted by gzoom
    Great explanation, so around 180Wh per day, or 30p(ish) total, did you budget that into the holiday cost?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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