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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 140
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 10th Nov 18, 2:56 PM
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    AdrianC
    And non plugins Adrian? Do they tend to charge more effectively than phew?
    Originally posted by David Aston
    They have far smaller batteries.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 10th Nov 18, 5:30 PM
    • 7,843 Posts
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    buglawton
    Thanks, but that didn't answer the question. Do non disabled users fill those disabled spaces or do they respect them?

    Also as seen in that supermarket carpark I posted some time back (forgotten the link now) they had 40 chargers serving 160 spaces, so that helps too.

    In reality going forward, as more EV's are sold, more EV spaces will be needed and it will become a self fixing issue. As with the rollout of all new technology we will of course hear how it won't work because ........ but I'm sure that these doom and gloom predictions for EV's will fail to arrive, just like all the doom and gloom predictions of the past.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Today I saw all 6 disability parking bays empty, in an otherwise 95% full Aldi car park. I'm not sure though what your point is in doggedly following this point.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 10th Nov 18, 5:38 PM
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    buglawton
    Yet more Ade predictions. Your finger tips must be getting tired from hanging on in there.

    IC sales will collapse long before 2040.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I tend to agree with you and fortuitously this year had my front garden converted into a paved area for 2 cars. Plus I'm happy to use apps etc to seek out clever long distance routes that include appropriate charging stops.

    All the same I'll wait for MG to produce an all-EV made in China with somewhat Kona specs but at an actually democratic price point and availability/delivery time.

    Still I feel sorry as previously mentioned for the driveway have-nots and this pushes any chance of downsizing the house as I drift into retirement far into the long grass.

    Where... is... the... government... policy?
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Nov 18, 5:43 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Today I saw all 6 disability parking bays empty, in an otherwise 95% full Aldi car park. I'm not sure though what your point is in doggedly following this point.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    Sorry, I thought it was really obvious, and assumed that you also thought it was obvious by the way you were avoiding a straight answer, but on reading back perhaps it wasn't clear what my point was. You were saying that all spaces would have to have chargers as the car parks are always full.

    So from your notes today at Aldi, the 'specialist' spaces are being respected, and the car park isn't full. So it seems that the problem you were suggesting isn't a real problem, so long as folk respect EV spaces. Cheers.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 10th Nov 18, 7:34 PM
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    buglawton
    As if Aldi or any other business is going to add a series of EV-reserved spaces in a crowded car park that's nearly always full. Thus removing precious spaces from general motorists who don't happen to need a charge.

    Range-anxious EV drivers without their own driveways turning up with no idea in advance if they'll be able to charge or not at one of a handful of such reserved spaces. That's an idea that 'ain't gonna fly'.

    Maybe a supermarket manager would like to comment?
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 10th Nov 18, 8:34 PM
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    Tarambor
    As if Aldi or any other business is going to add a series of EV-reserved spaces in a crowded car park that's nearly always full. Thus removing precious spaces from general motorists who don't happen to need a charge.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    A Lidl in Scarborough has. Only two spaces but it is a start.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 11th Nov 18, 9:24 AM
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    buglawton
    Interesting. There seem to be several types of incompatible fast charging systems and different payment schemes you need to belong to. How does Lidl cope with the variety?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Nov 18, 9:31 AM
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    AdrianC
    Lidl don't. Several of their parking spaces are outsourced - in the case of Scarborough, to Pod Point.
    https://pod-point.com/products/commercial-charging


    https://goo.gl/maps/U7ohPiQr8SM2
    Seems to be two parking spaces for a single EV charge point, with three sockets, out of 80+ general parking spaces with 6 disabled. It's currently set to be free of charge, controlled by a smartphone app, but PodPoint have the capability of charging.

    https://open.pod-point.com/address/lidl-scarborough-seamer-road-j9y1/tony-lucy
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Nov 18, 9:38 AM
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    Martyn1981
    As if Aldi or any other business is going to add a series of EV-reserved spaces in a crowded car park that's nearly always full. Thus removing precious spaces from general motorists who don't happen to need a charge.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    Sorry but that argument doesn't follow. If the charging spaces are added proportionately to EV ownership over time, then for every precious space removed from general motorists, you will also have a 'general motorist' removed by switching to EV's. You have to look at both sides of the issue for balance.

    But regardless, based on your statements, we seem to have responsible motorists respecting 'specialist' spaces and still 5% of general spaces free, so there doesn't seem to be a problem:

    Let's assume a carpark of 106 spaces, with 6 disabled spaces (you mentioned 6 disabled spaces empty, I'll assume all are empty, but of course you can change the numbers to 107 & 7 disabled spaces and 1 full etc if you want).

    So we have 100 'free' spaces, 95 full (95%), 5 cars arriving/leaving and a buffer of 5 spaces. Now let's assume that 3% of folk buy an EV and 3 spaces are switched to EV only, then we have 95 spaces in use, 92 IC and 3 EV, 5 cars still arriving/leaving, and 5 empty buffer spaces.

    But, back to reality, as I mentioned before, the addition of a charging point at the center of 4 spaces, such as the 40 charger / 160 space example, helps deal with this issue even better, and both the provision of such spaces and later on the ratio of 1:4 can be increased as EV ownership and supermarket charging demand rises.

    In short (sorry, too late) this seems to just be the usual fear of something new and the 'bloke down the pub' creation of problems that never come to anything in reality.



    Range-anxious EV drivers without their own driveways turning up with no idea in advance if they'll be able to charge or not at one of a handful of such reserved spaces. That's an idea that 'ain't gonna fly'.

    Maybe a supermarket manager would like to comment?
    Originally posted by buglawton
    Or perhaps it's a fictional scenario that 'a'int gonna fly'?
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 11-11-2018 at 9:40 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 11th Nov 18, 10:00 AM
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    buglawton
    So with my Aldi disabled bay example in post #2782, just due to the statistics of the moment, 6 spaces were wasted while at the same time me and other motorists were cruising round seeking out an empty space. I toured the whole car park, found a space and would estimate there were about 5 non disabled spaces free though some drivers were awaiting another car to leave a space.

    Now imagine 6 more bays were allocated for actively charging EVs only but again, due to the statistics of random demand, they're not occupied. That's a borderline full car park now overflowing.

    And again due to the stats, on another day 10 disabled drivers/mums with infants might rock up at the same moment and will be competing for 6 spaces. That's my EV analogy.

    This is the same resource allocation conundrum the NHS faces with specialist vs general hospital wards and is exactly why unisex wards were experimented with.

    Not an issue where land is cheap and car parks half empty but my observations in Berks are that supermarket car parks are very frequently absolutely full.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Nov 18, 10:01 AM
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    AdrianC
    The whole disabled-space analogy falls down on one major difference.

    NOBODY chooses to be disabled.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Nov 18, 10:02 AM
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    Martyn1981
    So with my Aldi disabled bay example in post #2782, just due to the statistics of the moment, 6 spaces were wasted while at the same time me and other motorists were cruising round seeking out an empty space. I toured the whole car park, found a space and would estimate there were about 5 non disabled spaces free though some drivers were awaiting another car to leave a space.

    Now imagine 6 more bays were allocated for actively charging EVs only but again, due to the statistics of random demand, they're not occupied. That's a borderline full car park now overflowing.

    And again due to the stats, on another day 10 disabled drivers/mums with infants might rock up at the same moment and will be competing for 6 spaces. That's my EV analogy.

    This is the same resource allocation conundrum the NHS faces with specialist vs general hospital wards and is exactly why unisex wards were experimented with.

    Not an issue where land is cheap and car parks half empty but my observations in Berks are that supermarket car parks are very frequently absolutely full.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    If 6% of demand is EV's and 6 (out of 100) normal spaces become charging spaces then all's fine, and you don't need to worry about these doom and gloom predictions since they never come to pass in reality with regard to new technologies and the resulting changes.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Nov 18, 10:15 AM
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    AdrianC
    If 6% of demand is EV's and 6 (out of 100) normal spaces become charging spaces then all's fine, and you don't need to worry about these doom and gloom predictions since they never come to pass in reality with regard to new technologies and the resulting changes.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    So given that last month saw 0.8% of UK new car sales being BEVs, and the Scarborough Lidl has one charger for 85 parking spaces (=1.2% availability), then we're doing better than "fine"! We're 50% ahead of the game!
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Nov 18, 10:39 AM
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    Martyn1981
    So given that last month saw 0.8% of UK new car sales being BEVs, and the Scarborough Lidl has one charger for 85 parking spaces (=1.2% availability), then we're doing better than "fine"! We're 50% ahead of the game!
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Yep, so no need to let our imagination get out of control. Perhaps you and Bug could watch the 3 part Southpark documentary on the invasion and takeover of Imaginationland by terrorists.

    BTW, shouldn't you be basing your calcs on PEV's not BEV's? It's always odd how your 'accidental' mistakes seem to work in favour of your latest dodgy argument.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Nov 18, 10:55 AM
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    AdrianC
    Yes, PHEVs could be included, but I'm not sure they help your argument. If we are including them, then it's 1.2% availability for 3.0% of new registrations. I s'pose we could say there's two spaces sharing that one charger, so 2.4%. But that's a sadface, not a smileyface, isn't it? I mean, your argument was that charger provision was not a restriction, wasn't it...?

    If we consider my nearest city (which I've mentioned before), then six of the eight main supermarkets have zero charging provision. Of the other pair, one (part of a large, new multi-tenant premium retail development) has 2 x 7kW chargers for 600 spaces in the development's shared car park. The last has a single 7kW charger for the store's own 600 space car park. I make three spaces for 1,200 cars between the two to be 0.25%.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 11th Nov 18, 1:31 PM
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    Herzlos
    Rollout will improve with demand, and I suspect demand isn't linear - You're more likely to have an EV within the congestion zone than outside it.

    The car park I'm in now doesn't have any, but then I don't see any EVs either. Will it never have any? I don't believe that, but the rollout here will be behind the places with higher population densities.

    At the moment EV drivers need to be careful with locations and routes wrt charging, but I bet the same was true when petrol was sold in tins. Supply will move on when demand drives it.

    Plus not all EVs need charged every time they stop; 3% EV doesn't mean 3% EV charging bay demand.

    The whole disabled-space analogy falls down on one major difference.

    NOBODY chooses to be disabled.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    The point was that on private land disabled spaces don't really mean anything yet are respected; so why wouldn't the same be true for EV charging?
    Last edited by Herzlos; 11-11-2018 at 1:58 PM.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Nov 18, 5:26 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Yes, PHEVs could be included, but I'm not sure they help your argument. If we are including them, then it's 1.2% availability for 3.0% of new registrations. I s'pose we could say there's two spaces sharing that one charger, so 2.4%. But that's a sadface, not a smileyface, isn't it? I mean, your argument was that charger provision was not a restriction, wasn't it...?

    If we consider my nearest city (which I've mentioned before), then six of the eight main supermarkets have zero charging provision. Of the other pair, one (part of a large, new multi-tenant premium retail development) has 2 x 7kW chargers for 600 spaces in the development's shared car park. The last has a single 7kW charger for the store's own 600 space car park. I make three spaces for 1,200 cars between the two to be 0.25%.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Firstly Ade, before you go too far down this new anti-EV rabbit hole remember it's not real, it's just a fagment of Bug's imigination, and relies heavily on there being an imbalance in the proportion of charging spaces to EV's and a very full carpark.

    Regarding PHEV's, as usual I'm afraid you have your facts and arguments back to front. You say PHEV's don't help me, yet PHEV's can park in either space - ICE or EV - since if the charging space is free, they can get a top up if necessary, or if the charging spaces are full, they can park elsewhere, no harm no foul.

    On the other hand if you are seeing no charging spaces, then you can assure Bug that parking for IC vehicles remains fine, noting that the 'car parking disaster' scenario was simply created as a way to extend the previous 'nobody will be able to park if they don't have a driveway disaster' scenario.

    So before we have to resort to the Southpark solution of firing a nuclear missile through a Stargate style portal to destroy imiginationland, because it's been taken over by terrorists - or in our case car parks from hell - perhaps we can stick with reality rather than ever more silly ways to create fictionalized problems.

    Out of interest, how much longer do you think you can keep on imaginationing new problems for EV's? And aren't you worried that you might appear to look silly in doing so?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Nov 18, 5:35 PM
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    AdrianC
    Sure, PHEVs can park in either - which is why I didn't include them, to tip the spaces-to-sales ratio in favour of electrickery... But, no, you just had to assume I was on the negativity, didn't you? Rather than actually read and think...



    If a PHEV is charging, then that space is full for a BEV. Even if the PHEV is just taking advantage of a "preferential" space, not actually needing to charge.


    'course, a BEV could park in either, too. If there's no need to charge, then there's no need to take the charger up.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Nov 18, 5:56 PM
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    Martyn1981
    That's a bit more realistic:

    Israel Will Ban Gasoline & Diesel Vehicles After 2030
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 11th Nov 18, 5:57 PM
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    Martyn1981
    Sure, PHEVs can park in either - which is why I didn't include them, to tip the spaces-to-sales ratio in favour of electrickery... But, no, you just had to assume I was on the negativity, didn't you? Rather than actually read and think...



    If a PHEV is charging, then that space is full for a BEV. Even if the PHEV is just taking advantage of a "preferential" space, not actually needing to charge.


    'course, a BEV could park in either, too. If there's no need to charge, then there's no need to take the charger up.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    So no problem then with EV's, glad you've seen the light at last.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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