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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 125
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Oct 18, 8:03 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Probably worth doing your own research on the subject rather than relying on the very bias pieces put up by Martin (out of interest Martin do you write for them or something or only read confirmation sites?). VW are investing something like €20billion over the next decade in zero emission vehicles and are converting at least one of their plants to 100% ev production by 2020.

    I had a quick look on Statista and it shows that vw's operating profit, sales revenue and unit production are up on last year so it appears it's got a handle on its customers demands.
    Originally posted by welfayre
    Are you claiming that the statements attributed to Volkswagen chief Herbert Diess are not true, or that you know better than him?

    Edit - not sure why you don't like Cleantechnica, or think they are a confirmation bias site since they support RE and EV's.

    They've covered VW's investment in EV's and batts:

    Volkswagen Agrees To Invest $40 Billion In Electric Car & Mobility Tech By 2022

    Volkswagen Doubles EV Battery Order To $48 Billion
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 12-10-2018 at 8:09 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Oct 18, 8:11 AM
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    AdrianC
    You've argued similar for PSA
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I love the way you say "You've argued similar"...
    All I did there was state a simple, and very easily verifiable, fact.


    so why are these companies scared then?
    With the "PSA" piece a while back, the amount of spin on a very small part of a much wider speech to leap to the conclusion of "scared" was closing on simple mendacity.

    I've not looked at the truth behind this VAG piece, but I strongly suspect similar.
    Here's coverage from a more neutral source - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-12/vw-ceo-sees-cost-of-electric-car-lineup-as-higher-than-expected
    Seems obvious that he's talking about the need for rebasing investment from a much wider perspective. It's not exactly news that VAG have had issues - the US emissions cheat, their current WLTP woes. They have a history of cost estimates proving way out - development of the MQB platform went WAY over budget, leading to a profits warning.


    Wouldn't it be simpler if they just started churning out EV's, instead of concepts and excuses?
    Again, I think you seem to be denying simple existing reality where it doesn't suit your preconceptions. VAG have had EVs in showrooms for five years, and hybrids for near-on a decade.
    Last edited by AdrianC; 12-10-2018 at 8:14 AM.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 12th Oct 18, 8:13 AM
    • 7,744 Posts
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    buglawton
    Subsidy on hybrids to be cancelled in November and on all-EVs, reduced from £4,500 to £3,500.
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 12th Oct 18, 8:16 AM
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    buglawton
    Putting aside issues about Tesla, it's interesting to see how safe EV's can be compared to ICE's in general.

    #1, #2, #3 ó Tesla Model 3, S, & X = USAís Safest Cars & Top Selling Electric Cars
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    When a Tesla battery caught fire it took 200 gallons of water/foam to put it out. Then it reignited 5 days later. I guess that would apply to any EV.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Oct 18, 8:16 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Reductions in Government subsidies, and removal for PHEV's, looks like they will be concentrating on BEV's (and REX's) going forward .... sounds sensible(?)

    Car groups condemn grant cuts for electric and hybrid vehicles

    Reformed Plug-In Car Grant extended into next decade
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Oct 18, 8:20 AM
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    AdrianC
    When a Tesla battery caught fire it took 200 gallons of water/foam to put it out. Then it reignited 5 days later. I guess that would apply to any EV.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    Lithium Ion is Lithium Ion.
    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/safety_concerns_with_li_ion
    https://nerc.ukri.org/about/policy/safety/procedures/guidance-lithium-batteries/
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Oct 18, 8:23 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Again, I think you seem to be denying simple existing reality where it doesn't suit your preconceptions. VAG have had EVs in showrooms for five years, and hybrids for near-on a decade.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    I'm happy with my reality, as I'm sure Herbert Diess has a better handle on VW than yourself. But it's interesting that my posting the news, is to you a preconception, if said news doesn't suit your position on EV's.

    As I see it (or have seen it all year on here) you simply deny all articles that disagree with your position, even if that means disagreeing with the statements made by car companies themselves.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Oct 18, 8:45 AM
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    AdrianC
    No, posting the news is not a preconception. Posting the news according to a source with a heavy bias IS part of a preconception, as is then denying that bias when presented with other sources which show the fuller context.

    Denying the existence of showroom-available EVs from non-favoured manufacturers is also part of your preconception.


    BTW, we aren't seeing the Tesla Q3 financials quite yet - they should be imminent, going by the publication date from previous quarters - but the production figures were released a week or so ago. The Bloomberg Model 3 production tracker that I've posted here a few times has been confirmed as basically bob-on Tesla's own figures - Model 3 production averaged a snidge over 4,000 cars/week over the quarter.
    http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-q3-2018-vehicle-production-and-deliveries
    Yes, it's absolutely a big leap forward - nearly +90% over Q2. But it's still the level they were most recently predicting for about half-way through Q2, and originally predicting for half-way through Q4 2017.


    That Q2 update congratulated the team on hitting 5,000 cars/week imminently, with an expectation of 6,000/week by the end of July.

    http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-q2-2018-vehicle-production-and-deliveries


    I wonder if anything can be read into the Q3 production update not giving a figure for the reservation queue? At the end of Q2, it was stated to have remained static at ~420k, despite shipping starting in volume and high levels of reported cancellations at the start of the quarter.
    • Deastons
    • By Deastons 12th Oct 18, 8:49 AM
    • 375 Posts
    • 212 Thanks
    Deastons
    125 pages and the OP has never returned.

    Impressive.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 12th Oct 18, 11:07 AM
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    Martyn1981
    No, posting the news is not a preconception. Posting the news according to a source with a heavy bias IS part of a preconception, as is then denying that bias when presented with other sources which show the fuller context.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    By 'heavy bias' you mean being pro-EV, and quoting PSA and VW having concerns when you seem to disagree with them and believe they are doing just fine.


    Yes, the Tesla production numbers are incredible, certainly put all the other western car company's to shame who aren't coming close to the production numbers that you seem intent on spinning negatively..


    Regarding the huge waiting list for the TM3, I still fail to understand your constant negativity towards it. I'd have thought enormous interest and demand for a product was a good thing, but again, I guess my reality and yours is somewhat different.

    Maybe you know something that everyone else has missed and demand for the TM3 will fall when they start selling the cheaper base version, start selling outside of N. America, and start selling on lease (not just to cash & loan customers) ...... I'm sure that makes sense in your reality!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 12th Oct 18, 1:13 PM
    • 7,575 Posts
    • 3,107 Thanks
    almillar
    TBF, VAG have had hybrids in their mainstream range for nine years now, and full electrics for five years.
    They've got a lineup, but it ain't competitive and dealers/manufacturer really doesn't want to sell them.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 12th Oct 18, 1:36 PM
    • 8,118 Posts
    • 7,432 Thanks
    Herzlos
    When a Tesla battery caught fire it took 200 gallons of water/foam to put it out. Then it reignited 5 days later. I guess that would apply to any EV.
    Originally posted by buglawton

    It seems the batteries can still get pretty hot and Tesla recommend a lot of water to cool them and a thermal image camera to monitor the temperature until it's cooled down. I think this is just something that'll change as we get better at handling it.
    The article I found about the fire make this good point though:


    As usual, itís important to remind everyone that even though electric vehicle fires are heavily represented in the media, EVs donít catch on fire more often than gasoline cars. According to the National Fire Protection Association, more than 150,000 gasoline car fires occur in the U.S. every year.

    Fuel of any form will burn or be dangerous when it's container is damaged.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 12th Oct 18, 5:36 PM
    • 4,357 Posts
    • 5,796 Thanks
    zeupater
    Probably worth doing your own research on the subject rather than relying on the very bias pieces put up by Martin (out of interest Martin do you write for them or something or only read confirmation sites?). VW are investing something like €20billion over the next decade in zero emission vehicles and are converting at least one of their plants to 100% ev production by 2020.

    I had a quick look on Statista and it shows that vw's operating profit, sales revenue and unit production are up on last year so it appears it's got a handle on its customers demands.
    Originally posted by welfayre
    Hi

    Research done well before the post was made ... suggest you look into VW's position vs WLTP & how this impacts their ongoing build volumes, shutdowns & 2018 finished goods inventory of potentially unsaleable vehicles ... also noteworthy is a line in their 2017 annual accounts related to assets which could resolve to future profits or losses as there's a pretty significant value to consider - if it's a profit it'll be marginal, however on the other hand there's both ongoing depreciation & potential for considerable write-off ....

    The issue being missed is that the head of VW is effectively complaining about EU/global policies which are related to emissions and his view that VW's strategy for change to high volume, competitively priced EV manufacturing isn't as advanced as that of many of their competitors ... if that's the case, then he's doing nothing other than pointing the finger at himself as he's held responsibility for setting both culture & strategy for some time ...

    So, what's behind the statements being made? - could it possibly be the beginnings of a strategy to encourage both the EU & individual European national governments to consider protectionist MIP for a period to avoid the job-losses he raises ..... very much along the lines of what happened to protect the German solar panel industry jobs ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 12-10-2018 at 5:39 PM. Reason: formatting
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 12th Oct 18, 5:53 PM
    • 7,744 Posts
    • 4,407 Thanks
    buglawton

    Quote:
    As usual, it’s important to remind everyone that even though electric vehicle fires are heavily represented in the media, EVs don’t catch on fire more often than gasoline cars. According to the National Fire Protection Association, more than 150,000 gasoline car fires occur in the U.S. every year.
    Fuel of any form will burn or be dangerous when it's container is damaged.
    Originally posted by Herzlos
    So there are 149,999 or less EV fires/year?
    I wish some sources gave more balanced/accurate stats.
    Possibly the most fire retardant everyday fuel is... diesel.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Oct 18, 9:01 AM
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    Martyn1981
    So there are 149,999 or less EV fires/year?
    I wish some sources gave more balanced/accurate stats.
    Possibly the most fire retardant everyday fuel is... diesel.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    I'd suggest a bit of Googling as I've found lots of items, but many/most mention Tesla's, and that usually creates a backlash from the 'silly people' on here. But Tesla suggest ICE's are 11x more likely to catch fire.

    But, is that impacted by Tesla's being newer, and therefore more crash safe than the average (older) car? Could also be affected by Tesla's having a lower rate of crash than the average, and a much lower rate (8x I think(?)) when autopilot is engaged.

    So the figures may be true, and EV's are simply less prone to fires, or there may be a number of factors that reduce the situation occurring, in which a fire may happen in the first place.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 14th Oct 18, 10:06 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Flippin eck. Norway got within spitting distance of BEV's being a majority of car sales in September - 46%.

    Plug-In Cars = 60% Of New Car Sales In Norway In September
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Mellymoo52
    • By Mellymoo52 15th Oct 18, 11:57 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Mellymoo52
    I have a Nissan Leaf, I wasn't sure at first but my husband convinced me it would suit our needs and he wasn't wrong. I love it now and would never go back to a petrol. We still have a diesel family car for our longer journeys, but the leaf does me for driving in and around Yorkshire, commuting etc.

    Costs us £97 per month. 'Filling up' with electric each week costs us less than £5. No road tax. All parking in Leeds city centre council owned parking is free. Had a free electric charger installed as part of the deal to buy one, so I have a cute little hose on side of house like a water hose reel, just plug in seconds and thats it. So easy.

    Never breaks down. I heard there are only about 40 moving parts in an electric car compared to over 2000 on a petrol car. Only thing we've had to get done is fix punctured tyres. It's fast too. Switch off the eco mode and the acceleration is powerful - although it eats the battery doing that!

    It suits my needs but electric not suitable for everyone.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Oct 18, 6:02 PM
    • 18,716 Posts
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    AdrianC
    If anybody of a DIY bent fancies a cheap EV, a friend of a friend currently has a Mitsu i-MIEV looking for a home. 11k miles from new, needs a new module within the battery pack and a little bit of light recommissioning. He's after £2k for it. It's in Scotland, I believe.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 15th Oct 18, 7:53 PM
    • 21,214 Posts
    • 17,034 Thanks
    agrinnall
    Subsidy on hybrids to be cancelled in November and on all-EVs, reduced from £4,500 to £3,500.
    Originally posted by buglawton

    I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been much comment on this yet, so here goes - my opinion may be contraversial, but we'll see.


    I think cancelling the subsidy on hybrids is a good thing, they do very little to aid the environment and I believe they are hampering the development of better battery technology because it allows manufacturers to pay lip service to reducing their contribution to climate change. I would have preferred that subsidy to instead have gone towards increasing the subsidy on full EVs, if manufacturers can see that consumer demand is switching that will incentivise them to do something sooner rather than later to phase out fossil fuel vehicles of all types.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 15th Oct 18, 11:20 PM
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    • 5,796 Thanks
    zeupater
    I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been much comment on this yet, so here goes - my opinion may be contraversial, but we'll see.


    I think cancelling the subsidy on hybrids is a good thing, they do very little to aid the environment and I believe they are hampering the development of better battery technology because it allows manufacturers to pay lip service to reducing their contribution to climate change. I would have preferred that subsidy to instead have gone towards increasing the subsidy on full EVs, if manufacturers can see that consumer demand is switching that will incentivise them to do something sooner rather than later to phase out fossil fuel vehicles of all types.
    Originally posted by agrinnall
    Hi

    However, there are plenty of alternative solutions with a both a better fit for the transition to vehicle electrification and a much faster positive impact on emissions ... for example, remove the BEV subsidy on vehicles above a price threshold (say ~£25k), increase the PHEV subsidy (EV range dependent) & increase the initial road-tax on all new non-hybrid/non-EVs ...

    Yes, it certainly looks counter-intuitive, but an approach such as this would act to front-load a move to an intermediate form of EVs whilst battery supplies are constricted & prices are high ... the same battery capacity for each 250/300 mile BEV could place around 7 PHEVs on the road, dilute the cost of the batteries over total vehicle costs & act to remove range anxiety whilst charging infrastructure is rolled out ....

    To keep the automotive sector honest on their ongoing development of BEVs, the subsidy could be linked to an assessed cost of battery technologies, the state of the charging infrastructure and the role played by the manufacturers in building that infrastructure ... as costs fall & infrastructure improves the subsidy could be migrated from PHEVs to BEVs with the initial tax on new ICE(only) vehicles ramped up on an annual basis - OEMs assessed to not be fairly playing their part through investing in infrastructure or developing full BEVs could reasonably have their vehicles excluded from the subsidy scheme ...

    Just an example, but it's one which would likely accelerate transport carbon reductions ... as always, there are numerous options available for the government to consider, but, as normal, it looks like they've simply chosen an approach which didn't tax their brains too much!

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 15-10-2018 at 11:24 PM. Reason: formatting
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
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