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  • FIRST POST
    • Jonamora
    • By Jonamora 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    • 1Posts
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    Jonamora
    Electric cars
    • #1
    • 24th Jan 17, 5:11 PM
    Electric cars 24th Jan 17 at 5:11 PM
    Just wanted people's opinions on buying an electric car?

    Before long all cars will be electric and therfore is it best to sell petrol car at full value and invest in electric car.

    I don't want to start a new finance deals for 4 years and be complete but then left with and cat nobody wants or has resale value because all are electric.....thoughts

    Jonathan
Page 101
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Aug 18, 1:41 PM
    • 4,435 Posts
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    zeupater
    Why? Brakes maybe, but surely everything else will be subject to exactly the same wear and tear.

    Edit: I'm specifically referring to the first few years of ownership where dealers are typically used for servicing.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    It may suit the argument to only consider the 'first few years', but many still use main dealer servicing for considerably longer than the warranty period & higher mileage owners can be lumbered with servicing costs every few months ... as for consumable components - plugs, exhausts, timing belts etc all add considerable costs to servicing and need to be considered ... add just those 3 into a 'service & maintenance' plan & you're likely looking at an additional 1k to ICE service costs for the majority of vehicles/dealerships ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 8th Aug 18, 3:13 PM
    • 2,202 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    If I look at the servicing costs of my 9 year old hatchback I find the main costs are the regular services which include oil, plugs and filter.



    The other items I've had done in the last few years are front suspension thingy rods and a 12v battery I replaced myself this year: I think I still had the original. Other consumables like bulbs and blades, of course. These would be the same for an EV. Similarly with my discs, which I'll get done at next service. The A/C compressor replacement I'll just ignore: I'm used to older cars with amenities not working!



    So there's definitely a saving on the regular service, the issue from there on is more complicated. But as Herzlos commented, with low annual mileage (apart from my bloomin' ski trip to the Alps), new EVs just don't make sense, solar panels or not. So I'm also someone waiting another 3 years for an improved second hand market.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 6:29 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    The price of a service for a Zoe is 79. The service covers inspection and a cabin filter change. Every three years I believe it's advisable for 12v battery to be changed.
    Originally posted by DrEskimo
    A Tesla Model S annual service costs 400 - 500.

    I would expect more than a cabin filter change for that.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 6:36 PM
    • 15,321 Posts
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    Gloomendoom
    Hi

    It may suit the argument to only consider the 'first few years',
    Originally posted by zeupater
    It suits the argument and is appropriate as EVs haven't been around long enough in large enough numbers to make a valid comparison.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • ElefantEd
    • By ElefantEd 8th Aug 18, 7:32 PM
    • 639 Posts
    • 1,204 Thanks
    ElefantEd
    We've always had our Leaf serviced by the local mechanic. All it has needed are occasional new brake pads and bits of the suspension replaced where the potholes have destroyed them. Then there are the usual tyre and windscreen wiper replacements. Have had to change the 12V battery once. Apart from that, there isn't anything to service, so it is very cheap, nor does it need to be done by a main dealer.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Aug 18, 7:48 PM
    • 7,828 Posts
    • 12,458 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    A Tesla Model S annual service costs 400 - 500.

    I would expect more than a cabin filter change for that.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    You forgot context / fair comparison.

    TESLA MODEL S HITS 300,000 MILES WITH LESS THAN $11,000 MAINTENANCE COSTS

    During the first 300,000 miles the total combined maintenance and fuel costs of the Tesla Model S were $10,492, with a total of 12 days in the shop. Of these costs, $6,900 was scheduled maintenance and $3500 was headlight damage due to driving through deep water. Had this been an Mercedes S class, the scheduled routine maintenance and fuel would have been $86,000 ($52,000 maintenance and $36,000* fuel) with 112 days of servicing, or for a Lincoln Town Car $70,000 ($28,000 maintenance and $42,000** fuel) with around 100 days of servicing.
    Edit - I suppose a reference to life expectancy (though not part of this exact discussion) is worthwhile too:

    !!!8220;Over the last two years, we have seen that that electric, supercharged vehicles can be deployed at utilization levels unheard of with gas vehicles. And while saving over $60,000 on fuel and maintenance is a substantial economic win, we feel the bigger win is that this car is ready for another 900,000 miles over the next 6 years under its current warranty. A gas car with 300,000 miles would be near the end of its useful lifespan. This means that the economics for mobility services on electric is more attractive than non-electric vehicles by a multiple, and when combined with autonomous driving features, the economic advantage in cost per mile will create unprecedented disruption in the overall automotive industry.!!!8221;
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 08-08-2018 at 7:52 PM. Reason: Added an edit
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Aug 18, 7:57 PM
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    zeupater
    It suits the argument and is appropriate as EVs haven't been around long enough in large enough numbers to make a valid comparison.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Conversely, ICE vehicles have been around long enough in large enough numbers to gauge service & consumables maintenance costs, particularly on components that don't exist on EVs, such as 'plugs, exhausts, timing belts etc' ... it's also relevant to note that global experience in electric motors isn't insignificant either and they generally prove far more resilient & reliable than combustion engines of similar power and therefore it's not illogical to work on the basis that units installed in automotive applications will have service interval requirements similar to those used in other applications!

    The only EV item which has a comparatively untested lifetime would be the power-pack, but then again, if there's a time-based warranty backed by the manufacturer, wouldn't it simply make sense to classify the unit as a replaceable consumable in the same way as fuel in an ICE when outside that period?

    Regarding ... 'It may suit the argument to only consider the 'first few years'' ... of course it does, and that's why comparison was made on that short-term basis as opposed to considering a total cost of through life servicing & maintenance as the costly services that specifically apply to ICE vehicles usually come later for most vehicles .... what's the average interval for an expensive timing belt service, probably 40k-100k miles(?) which could equate to a couple of years (or less) for some particularly high mileage driver/vehicles and for those with lower mileage a change recommendation every 5-6 years(?) ...

    For a comparison to be valid, the period for that comparison must suit both vehicle types & through life costs for typical ownership, not be biassed towards one or the other ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-08-2018 at 7:59 PM. Reason: +EV
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 8:18 PM
    • 15,321 Posts
    • 21,207 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Conversely, ICE vehicles have been around long enough in large enough numbers to gauge service & consumables maintenance costs, particularly on components that don't exist on EVs, such as 'plugs, exhausts, timing belts etc' ... it's also relevant to note that global experience in electric motors isn't insignificant either and they generally prove far more resilient & reliable than combustion engines of similar power and therefore it's not illogical to work on the basis that units installed in automotive applications will have service interval requirements similar to those used in other applications!

    The only EV item which has a comparatively untested lifetime would be the power-pack, but then again, if there's a time-based warranty backed by the manufacturer, wouldn't it simply make sense to classify the unit as a replaceable consumable in the same way as fuel in an ICE when outside that period?

    Regarding ... 'It may suit the argument to only consider the 'first few years'' ... of course it does, and that's why comparison was made on that short-term basis as opposed to considering a total cost of through life servicing & maintenance as the costly services that specifically apply to ICE vehicles usually come later for most vehicles .... what's the average interval for an expensive timing belt service, probably 40k-100k miles(?) which could equate to a couple of years (or less) for some particularly high mileage driver/vehicles and for those with lower mileage a change recommendation every 5-6 years(?) ...

    For a comparison to be valid, the period for that comparison must suit both vehicle types & through life costs for typical ownership, not be biassed towards one or the other ...

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Agreed, I don't doubt that overall maintenance will be reduced when compared to an ICEV, however, there is a lot more to an EV than an electric motor. Things will still wear out, break and need replacing. It's too early to tell exactly what and how often
    Last edited by Gloomendoom; 08-08-2018 at 8:40 PM.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Aug 18, 8:30 PM
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    • 5,935 Thanks
    zeupater
    Agreed, I don't doubt that overall maintenance will be reduced when compared to an ICEV, however, there is a lot more to an EV than an electric motor. Things will still wear out, break and need replacing.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Hi

    Yes, things will wear & break, but they're not usually the things that are covered or replaced within a standard service interval, it's far more likely that such things would be picked up on a general safety check at service time or within the MOT ... it's effectively irrelevant to compare non-service items that are common to both types of vehicle because they're (a) not consumable items, (b) common, and (c) often fail due to events as opposed to general wear ... however, consumable items generally have a design lifetime that is shorter than that of the vehicle and normally have a set replacement schedule ...

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 8:57 PM
    • 15,321 Posts
    • 21,207 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    The only EV item which has a comparatively untested lifetime would be the power-pack, but then again, if there's a time-based warranty backed by the manufacturer, wouldn't it simply make sense to classify the unit as a replaceable consumable in the same way as fuel in an ICE when outside that period?
    Originally posted by zeupater
    It's certainly an interesting analogy, but not one I think potential buyers of 2nd or 3rd hand EVs would be particularly comfortable with a few years down the line. They won't be interested in the overall costs averaged out from new, just what it will cost them from the time they take ownership. Much in the way that an imminent timing belt change can put people off.

    It will be interesting to see how things develop. I tend to keep cars for a long time so it is particularly relevant to me.
    Last edited by Gloomendoom; 08-08-2018 at 9:14 PM.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 8th Aug 18, 10:20 PM
    • 2,202 Posts
    • 3,114 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    It will be interesting to see how things develop. I tend to keep cars for a long time so it is particularly relevant to me.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Me too. But the main issue of the battery should have an indicator of its health - eg: the 12 bars in a new Leaf, and second hand ones advertised as 11 bars or 10. As long as the trade doesn't learn how to "clock" these you should be able to buy with some confidence..
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 8th Aug 18, 10:49 PM
    • 11,858 Posts
    • 13,831 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    What does an EV not require at a routine dealer service that an ICE car does?

    Oil, an oil filter and an air filter? Everything else will be the same and, no doubt, some form of essential battery/charging system check will be devised to make up the losses.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    Its not just routine service, its all the components no longer there that cannot, by definition, go wrong.

    Spark plugs
    Fuel injectors
    Distributor
    Alternator
    Gear cables
    Brakes
    Fuel system
    Timing belt/chain
    All those bits and pieces that connect to the crankshaft and go up and down and round etc.
    Turbo
    A whole load of gaskets

    Brakes (need replacing much less frequently)
    Numerous belts driving other systems
    Exhaust system from manifold through to catalytic converter and ad blue system and silencer etc
    Various sensors that monitor the fuel system and also filters
    Cooling system (possibly, i think most are closed loop on EVs? Unless you have a Leaf in which case they just dispensed with it altogether, oops )
    Transmission system (100x more complex on an ICE)

    ... and no doubt a sh*t load of other stuff I've forgotten.
    Theres no need to diagnose the issues that arise with any of those, to sell spares for them, to fit them.

    Thats why dealers are worried.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 08-08-2018 at 10:54 PM.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 8th Aug 18, 11:19 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    Its not just routine service, its all the components no longer there that cannot, by definition, go wrong.

    Spark plugs
    Fuel injectors
    Distributor
    Alternator
    Gear cables
    Brakes
    Fuel system
    Timing belt/chain
    All those bits and pieces that connect to the crankshaft and go up and down and round etc.
    Turbo
    A whole load of gaskets

    Brakes (need replacing much less frequently)
    Numerous belts driving other systems
    Exhaust system from manifold through to catalytic converter and ad blue system and silencer etc
    Various sensors that monitor the fuel system and also filters
    Cooling system (possibly, i think most are closed loop on EVs? Unless you have a Leaf in which case they just dispensed with it altogether, oops )
    Transmission system (100x more complex on an ICE)

    ... and no doubt a sh*t load of other stuff I've forgotten.
    Theres no need to diagnose the issues that arise with any of those, to sell spares for them, to fit them.

    Thats why dealers are worried.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    So why does the Tesla Model S only score 50% in the 2017 Whatcar reliability survey? Only Land Rover and Jeep were worse.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 9th Aug 18, 12:51 AM
    • 7,938 Posts
    • 4,633 Thanks
    buglawton
    So why does the Tesla Model S only score 50% in the 2017 Whatcar reliability survey? Only Land Rover and Jeep were worse.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    I've read something like, drive train EV vs Internal Combustion is 30 vs 2000 moving parts.

    IC drive trains have had at least 100 years of refinement and even then, high reliability only arrived in the 1980s with Japanese QC thinking.

    Give EV a few more years and they'll be as reliable as... well, iPhones. Most problems will be software related.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Aug 18, 6:42 AM
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    • 12,458 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Agreed, I don't doubt that overall maintenance will be reduced when compared to an ICEV, however, there is a lot more to an EV than an electric motor. Things will still wear out, break and need replacing. It's too early to tell exactly what and how often
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom
    If a 300,000 mile comparison to competitors on the EV you've mentioned isn't enough, then what sort of period are you waiting for?

    If servicing and maintenance from day one is less, and less costly, then are you expecting some sort of reversal in later life, bearing in mind that ICE costs increase as the vehicle gets older?
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Aug 18, 6:48 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Here's a retro EV that stole my heart a year or so back when I first saw it. Priced around 12k perhaps, and probably ideal as a second car for city/work commutes?

    The Tiny Electric Microlino Is The Ideal City Mobility Answer
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 9th Aug 18, 7:40 AM
    • 15,321 Posts
    • 21,207 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    If a 300,000 mile comparison to competitors on the EV you've mentioned isn't enough, then what sort of period are you waiting for?

    If servicing and maintenance from day one is less, and less costly, then are you expecting some sort of reversal in later life, bearing in mind that ICE costs increase as the vehicle gets older?
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    It is possible, although I'm thinking of the likely sharp drop in the value of the car as the battery approaches the end of its useful life... whatever that is deemed to be. Of course, there may be a market for old cars with limited range. They would remain useful for short commutes etc.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 9th Aug 18, 7:46 AM
    • 15,321 Posts
    • 21,207 Thanks
    Gloomendoom
    I've read something like, drive train EV vs Internal Combustion is 30 vs 2000 moving parts.

    IC drive trains have had at least 100 years of refinement and even then, high reliability only arrived in the 1980s with Japanese QC thinking.

    Give EV a few more years and they'll be as reliable as... well, iPhones. Most problems will be software related.
    Originally posted by buglawton
    As has been pointed out, electric motors have around longer than practical IC engines so you would think that the bugs would have been worked out by now. The rest of the drivetrain: gearboxes, differentials, driveshafts etc. are shared with IC vehicles, so not much room for excuses there.

    To be fair to Tesla, a lot of the reported reliability issues in the Whatcar survey were nothing to do with the powertrain and could have just as easily occurred on a conventional car.
    Last edited by Gloomendoom; 09-08-2018 at 8:09 AM.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 9th Aug 18, 8:08 AM
    • 3,638 Posts
    • 2,257 Thanks
    Car 54
    As has been pointed out, electric motors have around longer than practical IC engines so you would think that the bugs would have been worked out by now. The rest of the drivetrain: gearboxes, differentials, driveshafts etc. are shared with IC vehicles, so not much room for excuses there.
    Originally posted by Gloomendoom

    Gearboxes?
    • Stageshoot
    • By Stageshoot 9th Aug 18, 8:55 AM
    • 570 Posts
    • 639 Thanks
    Stageshoot
    Me too. But the main issue of the battery should have an indicator of its health - eg: the 12 bars in a new Leaf, and second hand ones advertised as 11 bars or 10. As long as the trade doesn't learn how to "clock" these you should be able to buy with some confidence..
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Virtually all EVs can be checked very simply with an OBD Dongle.

    This is a screenshot from my Zoe, showing the full rundown on the battery,

    About halfway down you can see State Of Health %

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/FuZ6r2od1iNopx5MA



    a 10 Second Check, as buyers become more savvy and this can be checked with a smartphone, this should help. also maybe as things move forward its something that could be recorded on the MOT like mileage.
    Over 100k miles of Electric Motoring and rising,
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