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  • FIRST POST
    • SnowMan
    • By SnowMan 8th Jan 17, 8:10 PM
    • 3,154Posts
    • 5,837Thanks
    SnowMan
    Coolly Comparing Investment Platform charges - SnowMan's spreadsheet
    • #1
    • 8th Jan 17, 8:10 PM
    Coolly Comparing Investment Platform charges - SnowMan's spreadsheet 8th Jan 17 at 8:10 PM
    It isn't any longer possible to edit the post linking to my investment platform comparison spreadsheet, so I thought I'd set up a new thread.

    The thread is set up to provide a link to a spreadsheet enabling annual platform charges to be calculated and compared between platforms. This includes both custody charges for holding funds and/or shares/ETFs, and for dealing costs based on the number of annual sales and purchases of funds or shares/ETFs.

    The spreadsheet (version 32 currently) can be downloaded by going to this link and downloading the file.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KqWqWRSNI23Jzs7VqzO5tyYgifOZd0Lr/view?usp=sharing

    The basic idea is that platform charges and fund manager charges are now separated. So the starting point in looking at costs, in choosing an investment platform, is to compare platform costs for your own particular mix of ISAs, dealing account and SIPPs and based on your mix of funds and shares/ETFs.

    The principle is that fund manager costs can be ignored as they cancel out, that is they are the same for each platform. This ignores any 'super clean' funds offered by some platforms, certain 'dirty' funds which have higher charges, and ignores the lack of availability of some funds or ETFs on some platforms.

    The answers are shown as figures and percentages (so you can use the latter to add in your average percentage fund manager cost to estimate your total cost).

    Most of the other comparisons I have seen only compare ISA only or SIPP only or dealing account only portfolios. This does not allow for the considerable discounts on SOME platforms for holding ISAs and SIPPs and dealing accounts on the same platform.

    That is why the spreadsheet allows you to add in all the different accounts so these discounts can be considered.

    It is also a good idea to look at options of keeping funds and shares separately. This is why the spreadsheet works out an everything together cost, a shares and ETFs only cost (based on the shares and ETF element only) and a funds only cost (based on the funds element only)

    There is also a column that calculates exit charges by way of re-registration. High exit cost platforms should other things being equal be avoided, because it will be difficult to switch to other platforms following a price increase, without significant cost.

    Some of these platforms (in particular AJ Bell Youinvest) have form for putting up charges without allowing customers the temporary option of a free exit through re-registration (past OFT guidance seems to suggest they can't do this but not everyone will want to take a case through the county courts, and the legal position remains unclear). The Financial Ombudsman Service, in my view, are causing significant customer detriment by not properly assessing fairness in relation to applying unfair terms legislation, and this is compounded by the inaction of the Financial Conduct Authority to deal with this issue.

    The spreadsheet is a continual work in progress but it is just about getting there. Because of the incredible complexity of charging structures and the complicated interactions between accounts there are bound to be a few errors in there.

    I will update the spreadsheet and link when a new version of the spreadsheet is produced.
    Last edited by SnowMan; 23-03-2018 at 4:28 PM. Reason: Version 32 link added
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Page 3
    • 3handles
    • By 3handles 6th Oct 17, 4:00 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    3handles
    Hi Snowman and friends
    What a brilliant investment tool your spreadsheet is! Many thanks for developing it and putting it up there for us all.

    I'm currently invested through an ISA with Selftrade. It seems to work pretty well and be relatively inexpensive. I'm wondering about whether a SIPP is going to be worthwhile for me tax-wise, and if so which would be the best one to open. I note Selftrade isn't included in your tables so far. Would you consider adding it or is it run by one of those already included? Details of their charges are here... (note I'm a new member so apparently not allowed to post live links to urls)
    selftrade.co.uk/our-services/our-charges
    and here for SIPP:
    selftrade.co.uk/our-services/our-products/self-invested-personal-pension-sipp

    Cheers
    3H
    • Mutton Geoff
    • By Mutton Geoff 7th Oct 17, 1:38 PM
    • 1,139 Posts
    • 1,243 Thanks
    Mutton Geoff
    Selftrade haven't changed the LTA to 1m on their information pages.
    Compensations/Refunds from Banks & Institutions - 4,165 | Stooz Profits - 7,636 | Quidco - 4,014

    All with a big thank you to Martin and MSE.com from Mutton Geoff!
    • darkidoe
    • By darkidoe 28th Oct 17, 1:10 AM
    • 929 Posts
    • 1,075 Thanks
    darkidoe
    Any reason why IG is not part of the list for comparision??

    Save 12K in 2018 #31 0/15 000
    Save 12K in 2017 # 9 15,848.84/15 000 (105.65%) Achieved!
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    • MonroeM
    • By MonroeM 31st Oct 17, 2:39 PM
    • 148 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    MonroeM
    Any reason why IG is not part of the list for comparison??
    Originally posted by darkidoe
    I'm currently on the Fidelity platform and considering changing for various reasons and IG are one of the platforms I am looking at alongside Halifax and iWeb.
    • SnowMan
    • By SnowMan 14th Jan 18, 3:31 PM
    • 3,154 Posts
    • 5,837 Thanks
    SnowMan
    I've uploaded a new version of the platform comparison spreadsheet (version 31) into the first post of this thread. The main changes are:

    a) I've added in Selftrade into the comparison table
    b) I've updated the Interactive Investor charges to allow for their new charging structure that came in at the end of 2017.
    c) I've removed TD Direct as they now come under the Interactive Investor structure.
    I came, I saw, I melted
    • SnowMan
    • By SnowMan 14th Jan 18, 3:54 PM
    • 3,154 Posts
    • 5,837 Thanks
    SnowMan
    Some earlier posts asked me to include IG in the spreadsheet.

    With the introduction of their 24 per quarter custody fee in the Spring, I've held off adding them at the moment.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5758879
    Last edited by SnowMan; 14-01-2018 at 4:06 PM.
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    • riwalker
    • By riwalker 23rd Jan 18, 3:14 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    riwalker
    Fees updated 2018 ?
    HI, Looking to transfer my UK SIPP
    I self manage, hence don't want an annual % type
    I was attacted to Fidelity and Charles Stanley, but they seem now to charge 0.2% or 0.25% annual fee ?
    I have ~500K to invest, mainly in equities / ETF
    your spreadsheet shows a smaller fee than Interactive investor, but I think 2018 has changed this sheet ?
    • macgyver
    • By macgyver 23rd Jan 18, 3:32 PM
    • 1,100 Posts
    • 552 Thanks
    macgyver
    HI, Looking to transfer my UK SIPP
    I self manage, hence don't want an annual % type
    I was attacted to Fidelity and Charles Stanley, but they seem now to charge 0.2% or 0.25% annual fee ?
    I have ~500K to invest, mainly in equities / ETF
    your spreadsheet shows a smaller fee than Interactive investor, but I think 2018 has changed this sheet ?
    Originally posted by riwalker
    For that amount II or I web could be the cheapest. A percentage based fee might be too much.
    HTH
    I wanted to thankyou a million times but its a shame that I can press the button just once
    • SnowMan
    • By SnowMan 11th Feb 18, 1:36 PM
    • 3,154 Posts
    • 5,837 Thanks
    SnowMan
    HI, Looking to transfer my UK SIPP
    I self manage, hence don't want an annual % type
    I was attacted to Fidelity and Charles Stanley, but they seem now to charge 0.2% or 0.25% annual fee ?
    I have ~500K to invest, mainly in equities / ETF
    your spreadsheet shows a smaller fee than Interactive investor, but I think 2018 has changed this sheet ?
    Originally posted by riwalker
    The headline percentage charges you quote relate to typically holding funds within a SIPP.

    FIDELITY

    Holding just ETFs in a SIPP with Fidelity means their 45pa cap applies. There is also a 0.1% sale/purchase charge for each ETF purchase sale/purchase within the SIPP as well.

    If you don't do much buying/selling and hold just ETFs in your SIPP then this is why the overall charge comes out lower than 0.2%.

    As per the note to the right of the figures in the spreadsheet only a limited range of ETFs/investment trusts are available in the Fidelity SIPP.


    CHARLES STANLEY

    Charles Stanley have a 120pa SIPP custody charge which is waived if over 30K of investments are held.

    There is a 0.25%pa additional custody charge for SIPPs but this is subject to a minimum and maximum of 24pa and 240pa for ETF/share holdings. And the monthly charge (of between 2pm and 20pm) is waived for any month where there is a trade.

    As a result someone just holding say 500K solely in ETFs in their SIPP may pay much less than the headline 0.2%/0.25%pa charge.

    The spreadsheet allows for these features.



    On a side note I think that Fidelity have changed their buy/sell charge for buying ETFs/shares in an ISA/dealing account to a fixed 10 per trade (previously 0.1% of purchase/sale amount) but the 0.1% still applies for buying/selling ETFs in a SIPP. This change needs incorporating in the spreadsheet although the default used is a 10,000 sale/purchase amount so the figures just happen to be correct as 0.1% of 10,000 is 10.
    Last edited by SnowMan; 11-02-2018 at 1:43 PM.
    I came, I saw, I melted
    • clivep
    • By clivep 23rd Mar 18, 2:09 PM
    • 328 Posts
    • 164 Thanks
    clivep
    Updates/corrections...

    re-register away charges:
    X-O Jarvis SIPP... 60 + 18 per investment.
    IWeb... 90 + 25 per investment (max 215).
    • SnowMan
    • By SnowMan 23rd Mar 18, 4:47 PM
    • 3,154 Posts
    • 5,837 Thanks
    SnowMan
    Version 32 of spreadsheet uploaded
    Updates/corrections...

    re-register away charges:
    X-O Jarvis SIPP... 60 + 18 per investment.
    IWeb... 90 + 25 per investment (max 215).
    Originally posted by clivep
    Thanks.

    It looks like both providers have clarified their re-registration charges to be higher than they had previously seemed to document, that is the per investment re-registration charge for SIPPs is on top of the flat account transfer/closure charges, and not included within them as it previously seemed to read.

    It does make sense that the iweb registration charge is the same as for Halifax sharedealing (but that's not what it used to say).

    I've updated the spreadsheet for these changes to re-registration charges.

    I've also updated the Cavendish and Fidelity entries to use a sale/purchase cost for ETFs/investment Trusts (ITs) to be 10 (the spreadsheet was already using these figures because it was assuming the average buy/sell amount was 10K, but there was an option to override that which has been removed)

    Note until all Cavendish customers are migrated over onto the new Fidelity Fundsnetwork platform, there will be some existing customers who are still paying a buy/sell cost for ETFs/ITs of 0.1% of the sale/purchase amount. See this page for more details.

    https://www.cavendishonline.co.uk/investments/other-products/investment-trust-or-exchange-traded-product/
    Last edited by SnowMan; 23-03-2018 at 4:49 PM.
    I came, I saw, I melted
    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 23rd Mar 18, 4:59 PM
    • 495 Posts
    • 251 Thanks
    TBC15
    Top marks for all the effort put into this very useful tool.
    • purple rose
    • By purple rose 19th Jun 18, 5:17 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    purple rose
    Thanks for the spreadsheet. Tis great. Just to let you know i spoke to club finance - they are charging 0.05% for the platform and theres a sliding 0.23 ish % charge for the platform from cofunds. Making 0.28% in total.



    Ive modified the spreadsheet to calulate setup charge ( buying in new funds) and the maintenance ( regular investing) of a portfolio.


    calculating over 10 years was quite eye opening and more accurate then the websites - that are not that sophisticated.


    I added on exit charges to each platform.



    Works well


    One key factor is the fund charges.



    Although in most cases the fund is exactly the same.



    For fund x - If platform A charges say 0.6% OCF and the same fund on Platform B is 0.9% OCF



    Plus a initial charge of 1% that you dont have to pay on platform B - it actually makes a huge difference.


    Iam not sure how widespread this difference is but L&G definitely support it.


    Your probably aware of this, but i just thought i would state it as i then modified the spreadsheet to say on average iam paying 0.04% extra for a fund over 10 years.


    Holy moly it worked out quite alot. making the more expensive platforms look more attractive.


    So, in short i think theres this whole game we are not really seeing - where we might pay less for the platform, once we are captured we pay more for the funds and we are guided to the more expensive funds by certain platforms.




    This is a hunch, does anyone have any further info on this?


    The other thing i would mention is fund choice. Once you buy into a platform you are stuck with their range of funds. does anyone know how one would rank platforms.


    Would ge good if anyone could enlighten me on



    1) How to assess fund ranges on platforms just in terms of breadth.
    2) How to assess the premium you would pay on certain platforms for a identical fund.


    3) and finally How to obtain a accurate total annual cost of a fund.


    I noticed on the Web Gina Miller ( anti brexit lady) had a campaign running in 2014 to make it compulsory for funds to calculate total return examples.

    Shame that the wools still being pulled over our eyes.
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