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  • FIRST POST
    • engjan
    • By engjan 9th Dec 16, 6:23 PM
    • 9Posts
    • 0Thanks
    engjan
    Changing to Joint Tenants
    • #1
    • 9th Dec 16, 6:23 PM
    Changing to Joint Tenants 9th Dec 16 at 6:23 PM
    My partner and I wish to change from tenants in common to joint tenants. The fact that we were registered as tenants in common when we bought our property was essentially a mistake which we have just lived with but now we want to put this right.

    But this is not proving to be simple. I went to my local solicitor who told me that they could do it but I could save the (minimum) 250 +VAT she would charge and do it myself because it is very easy, all I had to do was complete form RX3 and (she thought) AP1. She advised I call the Land Registry helpline which I did and they told me I needed to complete RX3 and ST5 and confirmed nothing else was required. I duly completed the forms and sent them off.

    Then I received a letter from the Land Registry saying they I also need to send them 'a certified copy of a new trust deed showing that everyone with a share or interest in the property agrees to the change'. They suggested a conveyancer could help me draw this up.

    I tried to get some advice from an online conveyancer but the response I got was that they thought the ST5 should be enough. So I googled a bit and found very little information - it seems that not many people do this. I did find one site selling a 'Declaration as to Beneficial Joint Ownership' template form for this very purpose, but I've no idea if this is a deed of trust or just a substitute for a ST5.

    I'd really like to hear from anyone who has experience of doing this either themselves or for a client and can help me understand exactly what I need to do. With so much conflicting advice I'm not sure who to trust.

    Please help!
Page 2
    • Shiralco
    • By Shiralco 20th May 17, 8:17 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Shiralco
    Deed of Trust
    Engjan, did you manage to find a template or suitable wording for a 'deed of trust'?

    We are currently in the position you described last December - we wish to convert from 'tenants in common' to 'joint tenants'. We have completed an RX3 and ST5 but are told we require a 'new or amended deed of trust'. Land Registry say they cannot help us with this and we should seek legal advice, but we would rather do it ourselves if possible.

    Any advice would be welcomed.
    • Beckylou88
    • By Beckylou88 23rd Jan 18, 8:09 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Beckylou88
    Hi, I am in the same situation and would like to move from common to joint.
    Can anyone advise what I need to do? What process and forms need following? Thanks All!
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 23rd Jan 18, 11:53 PM
    • 28,333 Posts
    • 17,142 Thanks
    xylophone
    would like to move from common to joint.
    https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership/change-from-tenants-in-common-to-joint-tenants
    • judy7007
    • By judy7007 12th Jul 18, 12:12 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    judy7007
    We want to change from tenants in common to joint tenants as if we are joint tenants and hold no other property or bank accounts in single names we are under the impression we will not need to apply for probate.

    We are having big difficulty in achieving this change. There is no trust deed. I can!!!8217;t get the same answer from any 2 solicitors. We actually want to do this ourselves but so far it seems to be impossible.

    Any help most appreciated.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 12th Jul 18, 12:23 PM
    • 28,333 Posts
    • 17,142 Thanks
    xylophone
    https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership/change-from-tenants-in-common-to-joint-tenants
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 12th Jul 18, 12:44 PM
    • 34,722 Posts
    • 21,155 Thanks
    getmore4less
    We want to change from tenants in common to joint tenants as if we are joint tenants and hold no other property or bank accounts in single names we are under the impression we will not need to apply for probate.

    We are having big difficulty in achieving this change. There is no trust deed. I can!!!8217;t get the same answer from any 2 solicitors. We actually want to do this ourselves but so far it seems to be impossible.

    Any help most appreciated.
    Originally posted by judy7007
    Probate is not needed for TIC on first death.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 12th Jul 18, 12:54 PM
    • 28,333 Posts
    • 17,142 Thanks
    xylophone
    Probate is not needed for TIC on first death.
    See below.



    https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/property-and-bank-accounts

    If the property was owned under a tenancy in common; (common owners in Scotland and coparceners in Northern Ireland), 2 or more people owned the home either in equal shares or a defined percentage.

    The person's will (or the law if there's no will) decides who inherits their share.


    When a grant of representation may not be needed
    You don't normally need a grant if the estate either:

    passes to the surviving spouse or civil partner because it was held in joint names, for example a savings account
    doesn't include land, property or shares

    https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance


    https://www.finalduties.co.uk/joint-tenancy-vs-tenants-common/


    In these cases it is easy to see why someone would change the way they own a property. However you should consider how this change can affect the administration of your estate when you pass away. When a property is owned as tenants in common there is no survivorship clause, this means you can pass your percentage of the property to whomever you choose in your will. However whether you choose to leave it to your spouse or someone else in both cases the property will need probate in order to pass your share onto your chosen beneficiary. This is because your share of the property is a significant asset in your sole name.

    Also https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/death-and-wills/dealing-with-the-financial-affairs-of-someone-who-has-died/#do_you_always_need_probate_or_letters_of_administ ration

    However, if the partners are tenants in common, the surviving partner does not automatically inherit the other person's share. Probate or letters of administration will be needed
    Last edited by xylophone; 12-07-2018 at 1:03 PM. Reason: correcting number string error
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 12th Jul 18, 1:09 PM
    • 34,722 Posts
    • 21,155 Thanks
    getmore4less
    The land reg rep has clarified this many times

    You do not need a grant if there is any surviving legal owner.

    All those links are wrong the land reg will deal with the change in legal ownership without a grant.
    • judy7007
    • By judy7007 16th Jul 18, 5:49 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    judy7007
    It seems I have been given wrong information along the way and indeed a Grant of Probate will not be needed on the first death (everything else in joint names). It still makes sense to me to remove the restriction using forms RX3 and ST5 to avoid any further sales difficulties (surviving spouse or beneficiary when we have both died).

    I had my first attempt at these forms returned and, never one to give up, I am going to try and submit them again. A solicitor quoted me almost 400 to do this so I bought a template for 13 (changing from tenants in common to joint tenants). Really hoping all will go smoothly this time. It just seems it could avoid any possible hassles in the future.
    • ryvington
    • By ryvington 31st Jul 18, 10:08 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    ryvington
    Change from tenants in common to joint tenants
    Good morning,

    Please advise if I have no choice but to engage a solicitor to prepare a trust deed?

    Thanks
    • DCa75
    • By DCa75 14th Sep 18, 1:08 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    DCa75
    I'm in the process of trying to do this also. My bank have refused to accept my application for a new mortgage with them (yes I'm not switching banks!) as they now say the current Declaration of Trust is not acceptable.

    What's making things more complicated is that they are insisting on certain clauses being put in the New Deed to satisfy their requirements.

    I'm trying to use an online company to sort the new Joint Tenancy Deed but they are reluctant to deal with me due to the banks demands.

    The company are deedoftrust and charge. Flat fee of 150 + disbursements (30 roughly). Doesn't sound too expensive if only the bank wasn't being so obstructive.

    I'm getting paranoid they are doing it because they don't want to go through the with the mortgage offer I have from them. 2.49% for 10 years. I have 6 months to sort this out as they tell me this is how long the offer lasts.
    • Skyskooter
    • By Skyskooter 2nd Dec 18, 8:42 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Skyskooter
    I discovered this forum and thread when I searched for help following rejection by H M Land Registry of my application to change from a tenancy in common to a joint tenancy in respect of the house I and my wife jointly own.

    I started by reading the original post which precisely mirrored my own case. I expected to find the solution but nowhere is there a link to the Deed of Trust which the Land Registry require. It seems to me absurd that you need to file three documents, the application, statement of truth and a new trust deed, just because you have changed your mind about how you want to hold joint property.

    Yes, I can leave my half share in our jointly owned home to my wife (and I have) but I am just trying to simplify things for her so she does not have to take out probate of my will to get it. A joint tenancy will enable survivorship to apply so that all she has to do is produce my death certificate to the land registry. SIMPLE!

    Is there no one who has succeeded in converting a tenancy in common to a joint tenancy? If there is can you please enlighten us all by making a link to the magic deed of trust.
    • judy7007
    • By judy7007 6th Dec 18, 7:44 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    judy7007
    http://www.thelegalstop.co.uk/faqs.html
    I bought a template from here to make a deed of trust. Their ‘contact us’ will tell you which one to buy. I did eventually have success in transferring from tenants in common to joint tenants. There was one more ‘blip’ with my RX3 but sorted that out. What a performance - but finally done.
    • Skyskooter
    • By Skyskooter 15th Dec 18, 3:42 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Skyskooter
    Well done Judy. As you say, what a performance. As for me I now have my Declaration of Trust done and if it satisfies the Land Registry I will declare victory on this site.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 15th Dec 18, 5:05 PM
    • 34,722 Posts
    • 21,155 Thanks
    getmore4less
    I discovered this forum and thread when I searched for help following rejection by H M Land Registry of my application to change from a tenancy in common to a joint tenancy in respect of the house I and my wife jointly own.

    I started by reading the original post which precisely mirrored my own case. I expected to find the solution but nowhere is there a link to the Deed of Trust which the Land Registry require. It seems to me absurd that you need to file three documents, the application, statement of truth and a new trust deed, just because you have changed your mind about how you want to hold joint property.

    Yes, I can leave my half share in our jointly owned home to my wife (and I have) but I am just trying to simplify things for her so she does not have to take out probate of my will to get it. A joint tenancy will enable survivorship to apply so that all she has to do is produce my death certificate to the land registry. SIMPLE!

    Is there no one who has succeeded in converting a tenancy in common to a joint tenancy? If there is can you please enlighten us all by making a link to the magic deed of trust.
    Originally posted by Skyskooter
    You don't need probate for TIC a death certificate is enough to remove the deceased, survivor can deal with the legal title and beneficial interests.

    Land reg have confirmed that numerous times.
    • Skyskooter
    • By Skyskooter 17th Dec 18, 9:22 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Skyskooter
    Sorry, you are wrong. Yes you can register the death certificate of the deceased joint proprietor but you cannot sell his share where there was a tenancy in common. There is a Restriction on the register that no disposition by a sole proprietor of the estate is to be registered without a court order. Probate is a court order.
  • Land Registry
    Skyshooter a few things to note here although I'm sure getmore4less will also reply

    If a property is registered with a form A restriction and a joint owner dies then the surviving owner can sell and does not need probate. Probate is not a court order.

    You are right you can't sell a share but that share is in the beneficial ownership. Any transfer if the legal ownership must be of its whole

    The surviving owner can do two things. If you leave your share in the beneficial ownership to her then she can apply to have the form A restriction cancelled thus enabling her to sell - see PG 6 section 7
    Or in other circumstances she can appoint someone to act with her as a trustee for your beneficial share and together they then sell.

    The key thing is that the form A can protect a TIC situation but we don't refer to TIC on the register and the TIC deals with the beneficial ownership/shares. We register the legal ownership so your wills, any trust or shares are separate matters, hence in some ways the complexities of dealing with the legal and beneficial ownerships when there is this crossover.

    So, whilst it may make things easier to apply to cancel the form A restriction the above may change your mind. Form A restrictions are often applied for in a wide variety of situations but are invariably linked to TIC.
    Once the situation they are protecting has passed, for example where one dies and their share in the beneficial ownership is passed on, they can be cancelled or dealt with as explained. There's no need to cancel it ahead of a death as a result but entirely your choice of course
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 18th Dec 18, 7:11 AM
    • 34,722 Posts
    • 21,155 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Sorry, you are wrong. Yes you can register the death certificate of the deceased joint proprietor but you cannot sell his share where there was a tenancy in common. There is a Restriction on the register that no disposition by a sole proprietor of the estate is to be registered without a court order. Probate is a court order.
    Originally posted by Skyskooter
    In simple terms the sole proprietor cannot sell on their own.

    But they can appoint anyone to be the other acting person.

    The implications are obvious.
    • judy7007
    • By judy7007 18th Dec 18, 8:13 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    judy7007
    ‘The surviving owner can do two things. If you leave your share in the beneficial ownership to her then she can apply to have the form A restriction cancelled thus enabling her to sell - see PG 6 section 7
    Or in other circumstances she can appoint someone to act with her as a trustee for your beneficial share and together they then sell.’

    In the end this is the reason we wanted the form A restriction lifted now. We are elderly and it seemed an added hassle to leave to the survivor. (I was set right on the matter of probate thanks to this forum).
    • Skyskooter
    • By Skyskooter 20th Dec 18, 10:06 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Skyskooter
    Thank you Land Registry and getmore4less for your helpful replies. I think we can say we are agreed. What a fascinating subject.
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