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    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    • 7,698Posts
    • 12,271Thanks
    Martyn1981
    On-grid domestic battery storage
    • #1
    • 5th Dec 16, 3:57 PM
    On-grid domestic battery storage 5th Dec 16 at 3:57 PM
    Hello!

    Right, as discussed elsewhere, battery storage for self generation (typically PV) is interesting (to some), and gathering momentum in the UK. So here's a thread to discuss it, and watch it develop.

    I've called it on-grid, as off-grid is so much more specialised. And domestic as commercial scale storage, or grid scale can be chatted about on the Green & Ethical energy issues thread.

    So, where are, well this article lists about 20 systems that are available or should be available soon:-

    Introducing CleanTechnica’s New Home Battery Overview Page

    Jumping straight in with personal opinions:-

    Economical - Not yet. Prices are falling fast, the range of products is expanding fast, and large numbers are being deployed in some countries, either because the price of leccy is high (Australia & Hawaii) or because subsidy schemes exist (Sweden & Germany).

    Where are we today. My needs are a 4kWh system. That's 4kWh of useable capacity, which would mean about 8kWh of lead acid (LA), or about 5kWh of lithium ion (Li-ion). My research has found batts in the high £2k and up range. I need the price to be nearer to £1.5k.

    The Tesla Powerwall II, installed is approx £6.5k, which works out at about £2.2k for 5kWh, but of course, it doesn't work quite like that, as smaller systems will cost proportionately more.

    Environmental - Tricky one this (to say the least). Until storage is needed, it's not environmental. Renewable energy (RE) generation currently displaces gas generation, which is a demand follower. Once gas generation is pushed down to zero (at times) we need storage, but we aren't there yet.

    However, to push gas generation down to zero, we need more RE, and to ensure it is viable/economic/profitable, we will need storage - chicken and egg situation.

    The advantage of storage to the environment, is to take peaks of RE and timeshift them to peaks in electricity demand. On a domestic level, this works quite well as PV generates during the day into the afternoon (or evening) depending on the month, so any stored leccy is available for the evening peak 5pm to 7pm.

    That's the background, and now here's a thread to discuss options, prices, economics, and watch things unfold. Enjoy.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
Page 26
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Nov 18, 2:29 PM
    • 4,413 Posts
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    zeupater
    I'm sorry but there is simply too much money involved to sit idly by and except/tolerate claims of ROI on overly high inflationary uplifts.

    Strip that out and accept that the technology is hopefully within a few years of being a good investment (from falling prices) and all's sweet.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Hi

    Agree, I know a couple of people (and am aware of a number more from various sources!), who have been disappointed by their battery performance relative to supplier claims and have eventually been able to return their product for a full refund (took some time, but they have done it!), which supports a conclusion that many justification models are seriously flawed ...

    I would rather expend my effort helping both suppliers & consumers understand the issues involved in employing erroneous logic at this early stage, than see seriously negative newspaper headlines concerning home storage in a few years time ...

    In reality, I'd rather that the relevant industry associations, Ofgem, FCA etc sat down and agreed to commission a standardised assessment process & basic algorithm to be employed by all suppliers in correspondence with potential customers, particularly so at quotation stage, but that would either need to be driven by the industry now, or imposed by regulation later !

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 7th Nov 18, 5:36 PM
    • 7,698 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Hi

    Agree, I know a couple of people (and am aware of a number more from various sources!), who have been disappointed by their battery performance relative to supplier claims and have eventually been able to return their product for a full refund (took some time, but they have done it!), which supports a conclusion that many justification models are seriously flawed ...

    I would rather expend my effort helping both suppliers & consumers understand the issues involved in employing erroneous logic at this early stage, than see seriously negative newspaper headlines concerning home storage in a few years time ...

    In reality, I'd rather that the relevant industry associations, Ofgem, FCA etc sat down and agreed to commission a standardised assessment process & basic algorithm to be employed by all suppliers in correspondence with potential customers, particularly so at quotation stage, but that would either need to be driven by the industry now, or imposed by regulation later !

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Yep. To all that.

    I'm more than happy to agree that cycles should exceed 6,000 going forward, and batts should last much more than 10yrs going forward, but I'm not going to suggest to anyone else that they trust me and invest £5k+ based on my beliefs. Not till we have more to go on.

    For instance I used to say that folk should expect an inverter to fail during the first 10yrs, and cost ~£1k. Now I think that's less likely, will cost less, and can be insured against via extended warranties.

    As explained (too many times (sorry)) I think for safety's sake we should omit inflation and cost of capital, so I thought I'd see what that would give us:

    I'm going to go with the £6k and 10kWh (useable (I assume)) suggested, and the 2% capacity loss pa.

    I'm also going to use E7 for one third of the cycles, and assume 32 days pa when no cycling occurs - partly to represent faults with the batt, faults with the PV, days in the sunnier months when weather is too poor to charge, and holidays etc & partly to fudge round numbers of 30yrs and 10,000 cycles.

    In the first decade we get 333 days x 9kWh (90% capacity average) = 29,970kWh

    In the second decade we get 333 days x 7kWh (70% capacity average) = 23,310kWh

    In the third decade we get 333 days x 5kWh (50% capacity average) = 16,650kWh

    So, that's a total of 69,930kWh's.

    2/3rds or 46,620kWh's save us 15p/kWh = £6,993
    1/3rd or 23,310kWh's save us 6.6p/kWh* = £1,538

    Total = £8,531 and a saving of £2.5k over 30yrs

    [*6.6p is the saving based on E7 at 7.5p, day rate at 15p, and batt efficiency losses meaning that 1.12kWh of E7 is needed for 1kWh of output.

    However, is it worth bothering with E7, I doubt it at these battery costs since we have a batt cost of £6k/69,930kWh's = 8.58p/kWh which when added to the E7 purchase cost of 8.4p = 17p/kWh exceeding the saving of 15p/kWh day rate.

    Better perhaps to protect the capacity of the batts.]


    Would I do that - no.

    Would I do it if I was certain that it would last 30yrs and 10k cycles - no.

    Would I do it if I was certain that it would last 30yrs and 10k cycles and costs won't fall significantly over the next 5-10yrs - yes.

    Would I recommend that other folk invest £6k to make £2.5k over 30yrs ......... nope!

    Would it work for me, not today, the battery draw down in year 1 is 3,330kWh's and I import about 1,600-1,700kWh's pa, but in the future as I've mentioned on thread my demand may go up further thanks to an EV, and this will hopefully coincide with falling storage costs.

    Lastly do I like the look of what is being offered by this company - yes. It's pretty much everything I would hope for, and I believe a reasonable price compared to elsewhere. Unfortunately the state (price) of the technology is too high today (no ones fault), and I fundamentally object to the use of inflation, especially high inflation rates over long time periods, to make something work. I'm funny like that!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Exiled Tyke
    • By Exiled Tyke 7th Nov 18, 6:22 PM
    • 294 Posts
    • 882 Thanks
    Exiled Tyke
    Agree to all of that too. And my (I hope) final thought on this matter, is that if we need electricity prices to rise so much to make batteries financially viable, then surely the best thing to do is wait for the price increases to take hold (rather than speculate) and then invest?
    Last edited by Exiled Tyke; 08-11-2018 at 7:58 AM.
    Install 28th Nov 15, 3.3kW, (11x300LG), SolarEdge, SW. W Yorks.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Nov 18, 7:02 PM
    • 4,413 Posts
    • 5,881 Thanks
    zeupater
    Agree to all of that too. And my (I hope) final thought on this matter, is that if need electricity prices to rise so much to make batteries financially viable, then surely the best thing to do is wait for the price increases to take hold (rather than speculate) and then invest?
    Originally posted by Exiled Tyke
    ... ... now that is what I would certainly classify as "thinking outside the box!" ... makes quite some sense though! ..

    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 8th Nov 18, 9:03 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 107 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    I'm sorry but there is simply too much money involved to sit idly by and accept/tolerate claims of ROI on overly high inflationary uplifts.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    Which is fine, but this aim was achieved pages ago. Who is now reading apart from the four people arguing, who already have entrenched positions? Maybe it's just me, but when I see the multiple quotes where the discussion is dissected to the point where people are arguing about the argument, I switch off and just scroll past it all.

    I did read the first posts and concluded that while battery storage costs seem to be moving in the right direction, they're not there yet, except perhaps for someone with a large array who is at work all day, but you'd have to ask why they got solar in the first place, except perhaps to earn money from the Fits.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    • orrery
    • By orrery 8th Nov 18, 9:32 AM
    • 577 Posts
    • 493 Thanks
    orrery
    Agree to all of that too. And my (I hope) final thought on this matter, is that if we need electricity prices to rise so much to make batteries financially viable, then surely the best thing to do is wait for the price increases to take hold (rather than speculate) and then invest?
    Originally posted by Exiled Tyke

    The trend is for generating costs to fall as more renewables are introduced, but I suspect that the trend will be for retail prices to rise in the short to medium term as the roll-out of renewables is effectively limited by the government, which seems unconvinced (or, more likely, unwilling).


    I suspect that the domestic battery roll-out will be driven by utility companies wanting to manage their own power and offering batteries for discounted prices, which is unlikely to benefit independent suppliers.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 8th Nov 18, 11:54 AM
    • 7,698 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I did read the first posts and concluded that while battery storage costs seem to be moving in the right direction, they're not there yet, except perhaps for someone with a large array who is at work all day, but you'd have to ask why they got solar in the first place, except perhaps to earn money from the Fits.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Yep, not yet worth it, so the issue then became the manipulation of inflationary uplifts to make it viable, which many might find believable, so should the continued support of that claim go unopposed?

    Basically should we be worn down by the repeated postings of a one sided and misleading argument (appeasement), or should we stand up and challenge it each time.

    Remember this site is a money saving site set up by a person who always challenged deals and the underlying economics, especially if they might possibly be misleading.

    Without people willing to oppose some of the more extreme claims we would still have 'The Green Man' on here posting pictures of pigs with their snouts in the trough in response to you (and me and others) having PV and FiTs, and that just wouldn't be fair.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 08-11-2018 at 11:58 AM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • djmattc
    • By djmattc 8th Nov 18, 1:02 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    djmattc
    Apologies if this has already been posted, just news from a few weeks ago as I'm keen to see what Duracell has to offer.

    No prices or specs yet.

    https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/duracell_to_launch_ai_enabled_home_battery_system_ next_month_for_uk_market
    3.5kWp 12-panel PV system, south facing.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 9th Nov 18, 8:16 AM
    • 91 Posts
    • 107 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Yep, not yet worth it, so the issue then became the manipulation of inflationary uplifts to make it viable, which many might find believable, so should the continued support of that claim go unopposed?

    Basically should we be worn down by the repeated postings of a one sided and misleading argument (appeasement), or should we stand up and challenge it each time.

    Remember this site is a money saving site set up by a person who always challenged deals and the underlying economics, especially if they might possibly be misleading.

    Without people willing to oppose some of the more extreme claims we would still have 'The Green Man' on here posting pictures of pigs with their snouts in the trough in response to you (and me and others) having PV and FiTs, and that just wouldn't be fair.
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I agree that we should set things right when incorrect claims have been made. It just went on and on and the argument became about the argument (he said, she said), which helps no one and people just stop reading.

    I only come onto MSE because of you Mart, (You mentioned this site on Navitron) so please don't take my comments as deep criticism. I am subscribed to this thread and the solar & green energy ones as they are a cracking resource to keep abreast of the news. When they are instead full of an argument it swamps everything else. I do realise though how you have to challenge inaccuracy when it occurs.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 9th Nov 18, 12:39 PM
    • 4,413 Posts
    • 5,881 Thanks
    zeupater
    ... they are instead full of an argument it swamps everything else. I do realise though how you have to challenge inaccuracy when it occurs.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Hi

    That's it in a nutshell ... it's unfortunate that the approach needs to be particularly forensic & technically robust when challenging potential inaccuracy in order to see where reality lies - particularly so when vested interests are involved ...

    Hopefully anyone interested in buying a battery that comes across this thread will attempt to take more time to follow the logic applied in that exchange of views than the average reader, but then again, maybe every reader will now better understand the level of complexity in forecasting & justification of such products and be reminded to be slightly more cautious whenever claims are made in the future .... if so, despite the hours of thinking & typing expended, I'd consider it as job done!

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 09-11-2018 at 6:40 PM. Reason: +a
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 9th Nov 18, 2:38 PM
    • 7,698 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I agree that we should set things right when incorrect claims have been made. It just went on and on and the argument became about the argument (he said, she said), which helps no one and people just stop reading.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Yes it did seem silly, my problem was that acceptance of the high inflationary rate makes (in my opinion) the batt viable today*. And then all hell breaks lose ........ So as I don't believe in that inflationary figure, and think(?) I justified that position based on NAO price projections, I had to keep on keeping on.

    *I also believe that the number of cycles and life expectancy of these batts will be much higher if DoD is kept to 90% or less, though as explained I can't count on that yet as the products are relatively new so whilst it should be fine long term, we don't yet know if any individual products will have problems.

    Two other issues which i think Z and I did to death was the reliance on E7. It sounds like a good idea, and as batt prices fall the arbitrage potential should become viable, but I've really no idea if E7 will continue in its current form. It was created largely for the nuclear industry, and that industry is now struggling. Increased demand from heat pumps and EV's might remove the differential between high demand and low nightime demand. Wind generation might make E7 more viable ..... I really don't know.

    One other issue touched upon was the cost increase in supply (poles and wires etc) from increased demand, but that is really obvious until we take a step back and think for a second - the UK HV and LV networks are built to cope with peak demand, if we increase total demand but avoid increasing the peak, then investment might not be as high as we would at first think. One way of levelling out demand is ..... wait for it ...... drum roll ...... storage. So we go in a circle and find that storage might reduce the amount of investment needed, but the investment is needed to justify the storage (at this point in time)!

    I'm also not convinced that standing charges pay for all such costs since they vary so much across companies and offerings, so the extra money needed by the HV or LV operators might simply come from revenues on handling greater total volumes of leccy.

    Is this confusing, yes. Am I confused, yes. Will there definitely be 8.4% compounded inflation on leccy for 10-20yrs ...... nope.
    Last edited by Martyn1981; 09-11-2018 at 2:40 PM.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 9th Nov 18, 2:57 PM
    • 91 Posts
    • 107 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Hopefully anyone interested in buying a battery that comes across this thread will attempt to take more time to follow the logic applied in that exchange of views than the average reader, but then again, maybe every reader will now better understand the level of complexity in forecasting & justification of such products and be reminded to be slightly more cautious whenever claims are made in the future .... if so, despite the hours of thinking & typing expended, I'd consider it as job done!
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Bang on. I think because I'm not in the market for a battery I'm not too interested in the minutiae, but I bet I would be if I was in the market. Ignore me, as I said to Mart, I think I just jumped in with both feet without thinking

    Keep up the good work lads, it is appreciated, despite comments in my recent posts
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    • gefnew
    • By gefnew 10th Nov 18, 7:56 AM
    • 128 Posts
    • 138 Thanks
    gefnew
    H All
    Here is a new one from the energy saving trust site.
    The future of PV is also becoming heavily linked with energy storage as this allows people to use the locally-generated energy even when the sun's not out. We're seeing interest in batteries continuing to grow with most of the attention, unsurprisingly, around electrical storage. But that's not the only option. Recently, we’ve been working with social housing providers such as East Lothian Housing Association and Castle Rock Edinvar, which are piloting the use of solar PV panels which charge Sunamp heat batteries. It’s a method of storing heat energy in a non-toxic chemical solution, which can provide mains pressure heated water to homes and other buildings.

    Last edited by gefnew; 10-11-2018 at 9:30 AM.
    • orrery
    • By orrery 10th Nov 18, 8:03 AM
    • 577 Posts
    • 493 Thanks
    orrery
    ...but I've really no idea if E7 will continue in its current form...
    Originally posted by Martyn1981

    I would have thought it would, as wind blows at any time and demand falls off overnight.


    The battery viability calculation is always difficult as modelling solar generation is almost impossible.


    I use a very simple calculation to check battery viability. I simply use my export figure (from the smart meter) and assume I can use it all via a battery, and assume that I can transfer all my peak usage to off-peak. Both these will over estimate the gain (hey, I like toys and I want a battery) but even using this man-maths I still I can't make the numbers work.


    I still think that domestic batteries will make sense for utilities to install before it make sense for the consumer - I'm happy stump up money to extend the size of a battery installed by my utility and allow them to use my garage wall.
    4kWp, Panels: 16 Hyundai HIS250MG, Inverter: SMA Sunny Boy 4000TL, SolarImmersion
    Location: Bedford, Roof: South East facing, 20 degree pitch
    Nissan Leaf, TADO Central Heating control
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Nov 18, 8:13 AM
    • 7,698 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    H All
    Recently, we’ve been working with social housing providers such as East Lothian Housing Association and Castle Rock Edinvar, which are piloting the use of solar PV panels which charge Sunamp heat batteries. It’s a method of storing heat energy in a non-toxic chemical solution, which can provide mains pressure heated water to homes and other buildings.[/COLOR]

    [/LEFT]
    Originally posted by gefnew
    I thought the Sunamp ideas were really interesting, including the idea of moving barges full of the stuff on the canal network as a massive form of storage.

    Have the economics improved though yet? Last time I checked I worked out gas savings of about £25pa and a repayment period of about 70yrs, and that was with 5kWh of spare generation through the 180 poorer days, which I don't have being E/W.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 10th Nov 18, 8:20 AM
    • 7,698 Posts
    • 12,271 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    I still think that domestic batteries will make sense for utilities to install before it make sense for the consumer - I'm happy stump up money to extend the size of a battery installed by my utility and allow them to use my garage wall.
    Originally posted by orrery
    That's what happened with my forum friend that I posted first year results from. His price was subsidised by the DNO.

    Good / bad news is that the batts weren't performing properly, but this was picked up by the company in their monitoring and they swapped all the batts.

    So we are still in the early days with the technology, but I think it looks really promising for the medium term, maybe even short term, but I'm still a tiny bit nervous about the kit at the moment, but that works well with waiting a few years for price reductions hopefully.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
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